Dream67Olds442

First, I am completely new to posting in a forum like this. Second, I am not a mechanic or muscle car expert by any stretch of the imagination, please be patient with me. I have entered into a verbal agreement to purchase a 1967 Olds 442 with the original #'s matching motor. I know the motor originally had a 350-hp output. The current owner completed a frame off resto in 2016 and the motor was gone through and a Holley Demon 750cfm carb, Edlebrock intake, W30 camshaft, and HEI headers purchased as a package from Mondello Performance were added. The current owner states the performance package from Mondello boosted the horsepower to 450-hp. Does this seem like a reasonable claim for the modifications that were made? Thanks in advance for your opinions!

Oldsmaniac

My opinion is no, I would think head work would be needed as well for that kind of boost, you cant just change parts and guess at horsepower. Chances are compression is down a bit with felpro head gaskets.

Dream67Olds442

Thank you for your response and expertise. The current owner did not mention if the heads were reworked as part of the rebuild, I will ask. He also did not offer any dyno proof of the claimed hp gain. Just blessing, but the stated hp gain may have been a sales pitch by Mondello to get him to buy the performance package. Would you offer your estimate for hp gain by only adding those parts if the car is tuned correctly?

I still welcome additional opinions from other members on my original question. I appreciate everybody's expertise.

oldcutlass

Somewhere between 350 and 400 best guess.

Dream67Olds442

Oldcutlass, thank you, I appreciate your best estimate. I welcome any additional responses to my original and second question in this thread.

Dream67Olds442

Additional info to this thread for anyone who has been following it or anyone new checking it out for the first time.

I went back to a professional appraisal that was done on the car immediately following the restoration. In addition to the new carb, new intake, new cam, and new headers I already mentioned as added during the motor rebuild, it also lists "C Heads" as being added. Unfortunately, I do not know what "C Heads" are, and how they would impact the overall performance of the motor when combined with the other new performance parts that were added. Can someone please educate me?

OLDSter Ralph

Mondello Performance in Pasa Robles, California ?

Dream67Olds442

Yes, the carb, intake, cam, and headers were purchased as a package from Mondello in California. I do not know where the "C heads" that were swapped in came from???

OLDSter Ralph

CORONA, California ? or Pasa Robles, California ? There is a difference.

Run to Rund

C heads, meaning there is a large C cast in the corner, visible near the spark plug area, are what came on the 1967 400s. Personallly, I would not be coerced by any claims as to HP or durability on the engine. After 46 years with the 400s, I have seen a lot done by sellers who were focused mostly on appearances, and not much of it was done well enough that it would not be worthwhile to go back into it to correct some issues.

Run to Rund

BTW, Ralph's question is important. Bernard Mondello is very good. There are some other Olds engine builders who are also to be recommended, and some that are less so.

BangScreech4-4-2

A big difference! Also, you should try to find out who did the installation work.

Kennybill

In my "quest" for 1967 parts, I met an older gentleman (one year older than me) who had a 1967 442 torn apart. He had a nightmare story about his 400 E block engine rebuild, two machine shop/engine re-builders, second shop finally sent it to an Oldsmobile Guru. The owner said, your from Ohio, maybe you've heard of Ross Racing Engines, Niles, Oh. I live 6 miles from his shop, and imo, they are very knowledgeable and do quality work, the Father was a "Guru" on the 371/394's. Anyway the engine was still in the crate (4 years) and $10K between the 3 shops later. The owner showed me the dyno sheet from Ross, 340hp. Now, all he'd wanted was a factory type but fresh engine and he was happy with the numbers. It was a 4-speed car. So, when I hear hp numbers thrown out, I don't believe them unless I see a dyno sheet or a time slip. Using the same "test" engine, tube headers vs factory headers = 10/15 hp, the Edelbrock intake, maybe 5hp, W30 camshaft vs ?? Hard to say but I don't see 450hp there. Imo, the "upgrades devalued the car more than the gain of hp. It is a beautiful car.

Dream67Olds442

There have been 4 more responses to this thread since I logged out last night. One from Oldster Ralph, 2 from Run to Rund, and one from Kennybill. Thanks to all you guys for your expertise and willingness to educate me on this car, you're all A#1 in my book. I'll try to respond to all your comments.

Since I don't have possession of the car yet, I don't have any of the build receipts either, but the owner assures me he has them. Next time I talk with the owner I will ask specifically about the Mondello Coronado vs. Pasa Robles question.

Kind of a neat story behind the rebuild that might fill in some of the blanks here. The current owner's father was a body man for Oldsmobile in Detroit for +40-years. The father's wife, owner's mom, passed away in 2015. When his mom passed, the owner decided to purchase a #'s matching project car that he and his father could work on to take their minds off of their loss. Apparently, the project car motor ran, but poorly. The original Quadrajet was worn out and they decided on the new 750cfm Holley Demon as a replacement. They wanted more starting reliability so an HEI ignition was added. They were also interested in more of a "muscle car sound" thus the cam and header additions, and a complete dual Flowmaster exhaust with crossover was also added which I didn't mention previously. I know the the intent of the engine rebuild was not to gain increased hp, but simply to get it running well again and give it more of that muscle car sound, and if some hp was gained, so much the better. I do not know who did the motor work other than it was a performance shop in the Detroit area. With the father working for Oldsmobile for +40-years, I am assuming he had plenty of connections to determine a reputable and knowledgeable performance shop with the expertise to do the work. I will go back to one of my previous comments and say, that the owner of the car did not claim that it is now putting out 450-hp, he was told that by someone, I don't know if it was Mondello (whichever one the parts came from), or the shop that rebuilt the motor that told him that. I personally, even with my limited level of motor expertise, thought a 100-hp gain by simply adding those parts sounded high. From what I have learned from you guys, I think my original thought was correct. In any case, all I care about is that the motor is solid, and runs and drives out well. The intended use of the car is to take the wife and I to local cruise events and shows. As I get more info on the car, and certainly after I go up to inspect and test drive the car the week of Nov. 4th, I will post an update. Kennybill, thanks for the compliment on how the car looks, and thanks again to everyone for your input.

joe_padavano

Welcome. A few things to be aware of.

First, Oldsmobile did not start stamping VIN derivatives on the block or trans until the 1968 model year. There are no numbers that "match" on a 67 Olds, so it can't be a "numbers matching" motor. Be wary if a seller starts throwing that term around. The only number stamped on the motor is the engine unit number, which is on the front of the passenger side head. That number was also stamped on the Protect-O-Plate in the warranty booklet. If the car comes with the P-O-P, you can at least prove that one cylinder head is original to the car.

Second, the whole point of a "numbers matching" car is to prove originality. The engine in the photos has an aftermarket intake, carb, air cleaner, valve covers, and who knows what else. The external vacuum canister tells me that the cam isn't original either.

Third, the disc brakes have been added and the aftermarket power booster is smaller than the original 11" one (which may be why the vacuum canister was added in an ill-fated attempt to band-aid weak braking caused by a too-small booster or mis-matched master cylinder bore).

None of this is necessarily a deal-breaker, but be informed when negotiating the price and evaluating the car. This car has obviously been apart and put back together. The builder may or may not have properly matched components. Also be aware that in my experience, many builders end up leaving out half the fasteners, which results in squeaks and rattles down the road. Watch for half-fast wiring also. Good luck with it.

Dream67Olds442

Joe,
Sincerely appreciate your detailed response and expertise. I appreciate good, factual, honest information so I can make an informed decision on whether to buy the car. I really appreciated the info regarding the #'s matching point as I was totally clueless on when Olds started stamping the blocks. Hey, how would you like to take a trip to Michigan and inspect the car for me? Just kidding, but I do really appreciate your input.

joe_padavano

A picture of the cowl tag would be helpful. Michigan, huh? I'm always skeptical of fully restored cars from the rust belt. In addition to the usual rust spots, this body style is susceptible to rust in the panel between the back window and the trunk. It's so common that a repro patch panel is available. Push on the panel and listen for "crunching" noises, or better, climb in the trunk and look up at the underside of the panel.

Dream67Olds442

Joe,
I do have a picture of the cowl tag which I've attached. Unfortunately, part of it is obscured by what I believe is a washer fluid line. Also included a couple pics of the resto where the body was taken down to bare metal, and the vinyl top was replaced with a brand that I believe he called "Rhino Armor", I know it was Rhino something. As I mentioned early on in this string, the owner's father who did the majority of the body work, was a body man for Oldsmobile for +40-years. Just my opinion, but in my experience, tradesmen of that generation generally take pride in their work, and with it being a father/son project they weren't under any timeline to get it done. Hopefully corners weren't cut during the resto, but it's my gut feeling they weren't.

joe_padavano

I was looking for the "5V", and that is confirmed in the cowl tag photo. It's a real 442. Interesting that it's from the Framingham plant. As a native of MA, I'm even more worried about rust. The resto photos do look like it was done correctly, however.

Dream67Olds442

Joe, thanks again for all the info, advice, and things to check for. I will RSVP when I get back from inspecting and test driving the car. Hopefully by the end of the week of Nov. 4th I'll be the proud owner of a 442.

OLDSter Ralph

I think its good that you found this site BEFORE you bought the car. I think you got some excellent information and opinions. Don't place a lot of weight on the 450 hp claim without a dyno print out and "numbers matching" without P-O-P (protect O Plate). I am sure that everyone who chimed in wants you to get what you think you are getting. Good luck !
P.S. Consider putting what state you live in on your profile.

Dream67Olds442

Agree completely, I am very glad I found this site and very appreciative for everyone's comments and advice. I did fill out my personal profile as you suggested.

Dream67Olds442

This is updated information for those of you who have commented previously to this string, or anyone else who may have started following it but haven't commented. I incorrectly stated that "C heads" were added during the motor rebuild. The "C heads" were on the "E block" when the project car was purchased. "C heads" were listed as an update/upgrade in the appraisal because they were ported and polished during the rebuild process. I will add more info as I find out more specific information about the car.

Oldsmaniac

I would say the engine has more HP that when new. I think the best thing to do is drive the car if at all possible to get a feel for added HP. I would not dwell on numbers. If the engine runs well, doesn't smoke, has no knocks or noises, and doesn't run hot you have a good engine... You may or may not like the additional noise from the headers and exhaust system.

4+4+2=10

Beautiful car. I wouldn't get too caught up in the 450 hp claim. The fact that the engine is fresh is what is important. Assuming no problems as previously mentioned is what is key here. You aren't likely going to street race much anyway. With a high hp engine comes other issues that negatively affect street temperament.

Hope it works out for you, I love that color.

tc

Dream67Olds442

Oldsmaniac and 4+4+2=10, thanks for your replies and advice, much appreciated. As I commented earlier in this string, the intended use of the car is to take momma and I to local cruise nights and local shows to socialize with other classic car owners. I will be 60-years old in about 20-days, and while I may still have the urge to go fast, I'd like to think I'm wise enough now to ignore those urges, especially in a car that I've dreamed of having since I was a teenager. Anyway, as a side note, if I did want to go fast and get scary, I can go jump on my beefed up cruiser that runs in the low 4's. Attached a pic just in case any of you guys are bike riders too.

Like you have noted, all I really care about is that the engine (and the entire car) is solid and drives out well. I addition to several pictures of the car, I have also seen video/audio of the car. At idle the car has a nice throaty muscle car sound, with a little lope in it, but the idle is not rough or choppy. Have no idea yet what it will sound like under load, but as I have mentioned, I will see the car in person and test drive it the week of Nov. 4th. I will update everyone with my impressions of the car when I come back from that trip. Thanks again for your comments and advice, and compliments on how the car looks!

NiceOld(s)Car

Dream67Olds442, You and I have a lot in common it seems. I turn 60 in 18 days, and am in the process of restoring a 67 442 (my first project of this type), I ride a stock 2014 Indian Chieftain and I am very glad I found this site and often get wonderful advice and insight from the guys on this site. So a couple of similarities. I see also you're from St. Louis. I was hired in 1995 by a company headquartered in St. Louis, but was bought the next year by another company and another, etc. etc.. I still work for that company and they still have a small facility in St. Louis, but nothing like it was when I hired in.

Good luck with the car deal.
Jack

Dream67Olds442

Jack,
Yes, it seems like we have quite a bit in common, even more than you could realize from the info in my last post. I didn't mention it in my last post because I didn't want to come across as a braggart, but I have an Indian Chieftain too, a 2016. I've been riding bikes my whole life and don't intend on quit until I can't hold them up anymore. One thing we don't have in common, is that it sounds like you're a pretty good mechanic if you're taking on that kind of project. I have never worked on cars much, other than simple maintenance items. I am much more comfortable working on my bikes because I have been tinkering with them for so long, even then, I would not want to get into a motor or transmission rebuild. That's why I feel very fortunate to have found this site and access to guys that really know about these cars. Best of luck with your project car, I will be excited to see it when you're finished.

4+4+2=10

I will have my 60th on Nov 12.... must have been something in the water back then...

Dream67Olds442

Jack,
Based on our common interests, I would enjoy corresponding with you about our cars, riding, St. Louis, etc., but I don't feel the forum is the right place to do that. Feel free to contact me at my email address, Ralph.Nixon59@gmail.com, anytime you want to.
Ralph

Dream67Olds442

Hello to all that have followed this thread in the past and to those who are reading it for the first time. Just got back to St. Louis on Wedneday after checking out the 67 442 on Tuesday up in Warren, MI. All the pictures of the car online and those sent to me privately by the seller did not do the car justice, it is beautiful. It is not perfect, but the exterior chrome, paint, and vinyl top are so breath taking that you don't even notice the two very, very minor blemishes. They were so small the owner had to point them out to me. On the interior the upholstery, headliner, carpet, and dash pad are "like new". The only place on the interior that shows wear is the dash facing which shows some wear/fading on the plastic parts, but I'd still rate it at a 8 out of 10. The motor ran quietly, with no knocks, pings, or excessive noise of any kind. I did not put my foot in it when I test drove it, but I could tell it was very responsive and wanted to get out and run. The transmission shifted smoothly with no jerks or noises. The car rode much smoother than I expected from a 52-year old vehicle. There were no rattles, shimmies, shakes, or odd noises going down the road from 0-65 mph. All electronics functioned as they should, including a nice set of aftermarket temp/oil press/amp gauges under the dash. I could not find any evidence of any kind of fluid leak (or past fluid leak) on the motor, transmission, rear differential, power steering, or coolant system. It was none dry everywhere. The beefed up cam, header, and flowmaster exhaust had a wonderful muscle car sound without being obnoxious, I thought it sounded great. At idle, I would describe it as "lopey", and it wasn't struggling to maintain it's idle. The car currently has the Torque Thrust wheels on it seen in the previous pictures, but the owner was also willing to throw in the complete set of like new Olds Rally Wheels and like new BF Goodrich tires in the attached picture. He also wanted to throw in a car cover, trickle charger, and spare parts that came off the motor during the rebuild that included two Rochester Quadrajet carbs and the original intake and exhaust manifolds. The owner also has all the invoices for all of the restoration parts, and labor that he didn't do himself.

After searching for a serious 60's muscle car for 11-months and being disappointed time and time again by the quality of cars I went to look at, this is the first and only car that greatly exceeded my expectations, so I bought it! I have attached a picture of the latest appraisal that was done in 2017 by a reputable and famous appraiser in the Defroit metro area. You can see the car appraised at that time for $39.5K, and I ended up buying it for $28K. I don't see any way I'm going to get hurt on this car unless it isn't maintained properly, and that isn't going to happen. I'd like you guy's thoughts on the deal if you feel like giving me your honest opinion? Anyway, I'm going to be sticking around this forum now for a long, long, time as the proud new owner of a 67 442!
Ralph

jmos4

Hi,

Congratulations on the purchase, I know the feeling of the endless search. Did the same thing looking for a 65 Buick stick car, took forever to find one that was a genuine nice car, 4 door no less.

My friend had his 79 F350 appraised by the same place, and was pleased with how well they went thru his truck.and documentation. I'm up north of Detroit (50 miles) so that appraiser is known in the area.

Regards,

Oldsmaniac

You did your homework and got a car you love so I say well done. As for the deal I would say ok, and not to worry as you got what YOU wanted at a price YOU wanted to pay, nothing wrong with that!

Dream67Olds442

Jmos4 & Oldsmaniac,
Thanks for the congrats! I am extremely pleased with the car. Next worry, praying the shipper gets it to it's new home in St. Louis safe and sound. Having it shipped in an enclosed 1-3 vehicle hotshot trailer so it should be ok. Anxious to get it home though to show it to family and friends.
Regards,
Ralph

4+4+2=10

Congrats and enjoy.
tc

Dream67Olds442

Thanks tc! Just a shame the "crusin" weather is almost gone for this year. We usually get some really nice weather here in St. Louis through the end of November, but the cold and rain (maybe snow) seems to have got here early, with no real nice weather in sight. Hope we get at least a few nice days before they start throwing salt down on the roads. It would be hard to get it here and just watch it sit in the garage!

Dream67Olds442

Hey guys, just an update with more info about the 1967 442 I purchased. I knew a more aggressive cam was put in the motor as part of the motor rebuild. I assumed incorrectly it was an original type flat tappet style cam and lifters, but apparently a roller cam and lifter set were installed. The more I dig into everything that was done during the restoration the better the car sounds.

I only know enough about roller cams vs.flat tappet style set-ups to be dangerous. I know the roller cams result in less friction because the lifter is rolling over the cam lobe instead of sliding over it. As a result of the decreased friction, the results are some HP gain, less heat build up, and less resultant wear on the cam itself and the lifters. Can you tell me anything else specific I should be aware of with roller cam set-ups in the 400ci motor or things I should watch out for?
Thanks,
Ralph

Dream67Olds442

My 67 in it's new home!
Just wanted everyone to know my 67 442 arrived from Michigan yesterday in great shape. It was sunny and 60 degrees here in St. Louis today and I was able to take momma out for about an hour drive. She was actually impressed, and that's hard to do because she's not a car person. As for me, I'm ecstatic! The car is absolutley everything I wanted it to be. Springtime will not get here soon enough now.

Oldsmaniac

Sweet, why anyone would buy a 67 though....LOL

Dream67Olds442

Thanks Oldsmaniac! Although in jest, you asked why anyone would buy a 67? Legit question, here's a legit answer. I remember every car my dad had when I was growing up. My favorite by far was the 67 Olds Cutlass Supreme he bought new when I was 8. It was red on red, with the 330 in it, bucket seats, and the center console shift. Boy was it beautiful! I've wanted a 67 Cutlass from that day to now. Just thought I'd get one up on old dad by getting the 442 package, I know he'd approve.