StarGeneral

Hello all, back after a long period of time with no troubles. My oil pan has leaked since I bought the car, and it has been getting worse over time.

I didn't know how difficult it would be to replace the gasket, so I went about learning how. Long story short I learned you have to pull the engine to do it right. I was extremely nervous about doing this since I have never done such involved maintenance on my car, but I set out and got the engine out.

Put the gasket it (incorrectly), sealed it up and had a hell of a time putting the sucker back in (also damaged a motor mount). Now my car runs HORRIBLE.

Not sure what exactly is going on. Engine idles super rough and at much lower rpm than usual, if I had to guess I'd say it sounds like not all the cylinders are firing. Made sure spark plugs were seated and distributor cap was tight, no luck. When I step on it, I have little to no power and if I really floor it, the engine will hesistate and pop and stuff shoots out of the carburator like a geyser. The car ran extremely well and everything was cherry before taking the engine out. Now I feel like I will never get it running right again. I turn to you guys for help with this. I will be posting a video with sound of the engine running soon.

I greatly appreciate any advice or help you can give me!

-Andres

ah64pilot

Did you pull the distributor when you pulled the engine out? Did the carburetor come off?

Here's a couple of ideas, but without knowing how you did the work it's almost impossible to tell:

Cracked the distributor cap hitting it against the firewall on removal / install
Cut a spark plug wire on removal / install
Turned the distributor (advance or retard) on removal / install
Moved idle adjust screws on carburetor
Left vacuum hose / cap off of something

Intragration

Did you take the distributor out when you pulled it? Sure you got all the wires on right? What's your initial timing set at? Did you check for disconnected vacuum hoses? Engine ground and ignition connections? It may seem like a big deal, but if it was running right before, it should run right again. It's probably just something minor.

StarGeneral

Hopefully this will answer some of your questions:

I have a delco-remy electronic distributor.
I did not know rotating the unit would affect timing, so I have not tried rotating it while the engine is running.
There is no visible damage to the distributor or wires.
I did not pull the distributor or carburetor (idle screws have not changed) when I detached the engine.
All electrical and vacuum hookups are correctly attached.

ah64pilot

Ok, if there was a face palm emoticon here I would use it...but alas, there is not.

Have you timed the engine? Did you rotate the distributor at all when you pulled it out?

StarGeneral

I'm afraid I don't know how to do that yet haha. I've never had to so I've never learned.
I think It did rotate some when I put the engine back in. Like I said, I didn't know rotating it would affect anything. But I did not at any time separate the distributor from the engine.

ah64pilot

Rotating the distributor is how you time an engine. If it did rotate the timing is off and that's your problem. I can't believe you never timed an engine but you took one out of the car and reinstalled it...you're a badass! LOL!

StarGeneral

When I set my mind to something I learn everything I can to accomplish it, but there are big gaps in my knowledge since I only learn skills when I have a problem to fix....

Guess I have something new to learn. Thanks for your help! if you have any tips on setting the timing I'd love to hear em.

ah64pilot

Well, this should help. Here is a post in which I describe the principles of timing and the 'how to' so it should teach you everything you need to know It's an old post, so if you have a question I would ask it here rather than resurrecting that old thread.

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...al-timing.html

ah64pilot

Here is what I wrote, this is easier...sorry:

1. After struggling with the stock 'non degree' balancer I finally broke down and spent $1.50 on a Summit timing tape. Wow, my timing woes started to go away after that. I could see exactly where everything was at idle on up to 3500rpm and beyond. I suggest you invest this minute amount of money into this awesome little tape. Just line up the 0 degree mark with the one on your balancer. It would be the one that lined up with the 0 degree mark on the tab at TDC.

2. Regardless of cam, your distributor rotor at TDC should line up with the #1 cylinder. You can either re-stab your distributor to where the rotor will line up with where the #1 plug wire is installed on your cap OR you can move your wires (keep the firing order straight) to where the rotor is lined up as it sits at TDC. Whatever way you decide to do it, at TDC or 0 degrees advance, the rotor should be exactly on the #1 cylinder plug. However, moving wires is easier but a re-stab to line the rotor up with both the physical #1 cylinder and the theoretical #1 cylinder (plug wire on cap) will allow room to advance and retard the distributor to find out where the engine runs best.

3. You have an MSD distributor; what advance bushing do you have in it? It should either be a black, blue, silver, etc. Each one allows a different amount of total mechanical advance. Find out which one you have and what TOTAL mechanical advance it allows. Whatever that bushing allows, subtract it from 35 degrees and the remainder is THE MAX INITIAL TIMING you should put in your motor (on 93 octane).

4. Once you have timing tape (or a readable mark on balancer), a TDC 0 degree alignment w/ #1 cylinder, and the MAX initial timing figured out; start at the MAX initial timing and see how she runs both at idle and all out. Bring it down 2 degrees at a time until you find the compromise between good idle and good power. Once you find it, you should be happy with the cars driveability and performance. For track nights, play with more advance to see how much better your time can get with additional timing...just remember not to advance above 35 degrees total timing unless you are running a higher octane fuel.

* This is a great way to time your engine with a mechanical advance, MSD pro billet distributor. The principal is the same for stock points and HEI distributors except that with vacuum advance the TOTAL timing may exceed 35 degrees at cruise. The vacuum advance will advance the timing beyond the mechanical advance bushing allows. This is why you should remove the vacuum tube from the carburetor and plug the port on the carburetor when timing a vacuum advance system.

**Exemptions to this rule include, but are not limited to: 104 octane gas which allows more TOTAL timing (initial + advance), points type distributors which will affect distributor performance and can mislead you into thinking it's a timing problem when in fact the points are worn out.

Intragration

I was thinking the same thing! Get up to speed on timing and you can start swapping engines like a madman. My only advice at this point is, take your time, and work on figuring out the big picture. You've got a bit of catching up to do, you're going to want to understand all about timing and how an engine works before you start going too far in any one direction to resolve this particular problem. What I'm getting at is, I don't think it's the timing chain, so don't go swapping that just yet.

StarGeneral

Just rotated the distributor to the left, got it to sound like it did when it ran right, but I am sure this is not optimal since it was done by ear. Also, I took it out for a spin, and when I whomped on it I felt my power come back, but I tried whomping on it full throttle and it like flooded the engine or something and it died and wouldn't idle right after that so what could be causing that? opened the hood and it smelled like gas. It idled like it was going to die after starting it again and then after letting it run it started to idle better, but the more gas I give it, it starts to die again.

I want you guys to know I'm not planning to drive it like this till it's timed right, I just wanted to see if the timing was the issue and it seems to be. The dying issue is still a mystery to me though.

Thanks for your guide ah64pilot! I'm sure I'll have to re-read it a few times to understand it but it should be helpful

ah64pilot

You need a timing light, or someone that has one, and some help. I would advise finding a friend to help you learn, it's not something I would just do halfheartedly. Is that a possibility?

StarGeneral

Yes, there is a guy nearby who was going to help me with the engine swap but he had other cars to work on and I did not want to bug him. I will see if he can teach me since he's an old gearhead

ah64pilot

Perfect!

Intragration

I have a buddy who spent a bundle on a new engine for his '57 Chevy. When we asked him how he had the timing set, he said he didn't know, he just turned it one way until it went "dunk dunk dunk", then turned it the other way until it went "dunk dunk dunk" and then came right to the middle where it went "duh duh duh" and left it there ha ha.

I agree, a timing light and some in-person guidance would help, but a timing light and CO at a bare minimum.

StarGeneral

Thanks guys I really appreciate your help and I'm glad it turned out to be something so simple

MDchanic

Did you tighten the distributor clamp screw after you rotated it?

And, to echo what the others have said:
You yanked the motor bud didn't know anything about timing... Wow.

Might I recommend going through the Chassis Service Manual page by page and reading all the descriptive parts? It'd help fill in a lot of blanks for you.

- Eric

Creativeindy

At first I thought this thread was a joke cause you know, he yanked an Olds engine and didn't know anything about timing it or that turning a Dist times it LOL. For that matter not pulling the distributor before yanking the motor. Seems like if you researched and leanred how to yank a motor it would have told you to yank the Dist as it more often than not willl hit something on the way out or in. I would be learly about reading anything else about Oldsmobiles from whatever site suggested you yank a motor and not the Distributor. Just my .02 on that issue.

Either way. it sounds like thats your only big issue is getting it back in time. You need to find someone with a timing light before you go an start around the block WOT passes with bad timing. If it's still causing the car to die and idle like crap after you turned it then my thoughts are that it's still not correct or you did not tighten the bolt back down after ear setting it. Timing lights are cheap, an inexpensive yet decent one will run you 30 to 50 at advanced auto and time back ones will run you around 80 to 100.

I don't think I would just read on this one and try doing it. Timing a car is really better left to someone to show you how exactlly for the first time. Kudos on yanking the engine though man.

76oldswarrior

I just had the same issue. I know someone mentioned the spark plug wires. I crossed the #6 and # 4 cylinder wires on the dist cap. And it ran like crap. Engine was missing and shaking. I was stubborn at first. I thought no way I crossed plug wires. Untill I pulled out my manual just to make sure. And that was it. Sometimes it is something simple.

StarGeneral

Sort of off topic but I'm gonna buy a new set of plugs and wires too since I have never replaced them and one of the plug wires is messed up. I have never purchased plugs or wires for my engine so I am not sure what brands are good or whats correct. If you guys have favorite brands or suggestions I'd love to hear em

ah64pilot

My favorite plugs are NGK's. I assume you have cast iron heads...you'll need part number 3332.

DeltaPace77

As you've found, pulling an engine, really isn't much a deal, as have a picker, and do it all the time. If you have the knowledge to to do this, suprising you dont have a timing light, as basically a tool I've had, since in diapers. You can install the distributor off a tooth or so, but you're really wanting to know whats going on.

Mike77

Trial by Fire , that the best way. you are definitley THE MAN. Pulling an engine with limited motor knowledge. I need guy's like you at work. You know anything about air conditioning? Never mind just show up, I got a job for you.LOL
On the serious side check out the info as stated above. A little reading and the timing issue should be clear. Once set up correctly you should be running good. Try not to "whomp it" with incorrect timing ,you could do some damage. When it's right it will be nice and smooth. Keep asking question's we can help.

Mike

StarGeneral

Thanks guys, I'm visiting a guy who lives a couple blocks away from me today that works on old cars and will teach me how to time my engine. I'll keep you posted! I tried test driving and timing it by ear last night and got it to sound almost exactly like it did before I yanked motor...It actually seems I have more response and power now than I did before, but I want to make sure that the timing is right before I continue to drive it.

ah64pilot

I think you mentioned you have an HEI distributor...when you go to your friends house let him know that you want to run 35 degrees of total timing, hopefully he'll know what you're talking about. Let the initial fall where it is once you set the total timing up to 35.

Man, I hope he sets you straight, fingers crossed

StarGeneral

Update! I bought a timing light and went to the guy's garage to see if we could set it straight. I also mentioned the 35 degrees total timing, but he said if you're not concerned about performance then don't worry about it (didn't want to argue with him so just kept my mouth shut since he was helping me for free) Here is what we did:

He looked up my engine in some sort of service manual. It said to time the engine to 7.5 degrees

I removed the vacuum advance and plugged it

I used the timing light and turned the distributor until the notch on the balancer lined up with the 7.5 mark I made on the timing tab

reconnected the vacuum advance and I was on my way.

Several days later I have been on and off tinkering with the timing again. i still feel it is not right. The engine is making too much noise and not running like it used to. yesterday I followed the exact same procedure he taught me, but timed it to the 12 degree mark, and it behaves better, but I am noticing lower fuel economy. I feel like the engine wants even more degrees, but I don't know what I'm doing so i don't want to advance it past the stock marks.

Have I missed a step?

I don't feel like TDC is really at 7.5 degrees otherwise the engine would be running better.

W70442

You seem to know how to set initial timing since you disconnected the vac advance hose and plugged it. The vacuum advance does just what it's name suggests. It advances the timing to match the timing to the engine speed.
The "total timing" that has been mentioned to be 35 degrees, is read when you have set the initial timing with the advance disconnected and hose plugged and then plug the hose back onto the vac advance and rev the engine to about 3000 rpm and read the timing again. The vacuum advance will kick in as you rev the engine and increase the timing to something quite a bit higher than the initial timing. In your case, because you have HEI, they suggested the "total timing" should be around 35 degrees. Since your timing tab only goes to 18 or so, you may need a dial back timing gun to actually read 35 degrees of advance. I think you mentioned intalling timing tape so maybe you can read up to 35 degrees.....

StarGeneral

thanks W70. Right now i am running 12 degrees initial and that seems to be what my engine is happy with. I'm going to get some timing tape since the stock marks only go to 12 and do what you suggested.

ah64pilot

You are sort of right. Initial timing is where the timing is set at idle - 1000 rpms with the vacuum advance disconnected. The total timing is the initial advance plus the MECHANICAL advance (weights in the distributor that come out with centrifugal force when revving the engine) with the vacuum advance disconnected.

Once you connect the vacuum advance, it can advance the timing even further during part throttle cruise, sometimes up to 50 degrees or more. But, because it is manipulated by a vacuum source, it is not a finite adjustment that you can make yourself which is why it is taken out of the equation when timing a car.

Many racer types eliminate the vacuum advance all together to get consistency out of their cars and to limit the total advance allowed to that of the initial + mechanical because of high compression etc. I have eliminated the vacuum advance on my silver car for that reason.

The HEI distributor has less of a mechanical advance than that of a points distributor. Thus, the HEI likes MORE initial advance than a points type distributor that your car originally came with. You should not time your car according to the factory specs. I think your HEI should like 14-16 degrees initial timing, but really, that should fall wherever it falls. Get your timing tape, and time your car for total advance. Then you will see where your initial is.

Highwayman

If you want to be cheap, you can just take a tape measure and measure the distance of the marks on the index. (12* = x inches) Then calculate the distance for 36* (x times 3) And then transfer that measurement to the balancer starting at TDC and make a mark on the balancer. Use a little dab of white paint (wife's fingernail polish ) or anything that will contrast and show up. It should be close enough for what you need and be faster than messing around with getting and installing a timing tape.

MDchanic

I agree with Highwayman - it's easy to just measure and mark the balancer.

And, my car with HEI likes about 22° initial to get to 35° at 3,000 RPM.

12° idle RPM is pretty retarded for an HEI distributor.

You need to just do this, and do it yourself:
Attach timing light.
Attach tachometer.
Detach vacuum advance hose.
Observe and record advance at 600, 1100, 1500, 2000, 2500, 3000, 3500, 4000 RPM.
This will give you an idea of where you stand.
If your advance is still going up after 3000, you should install an aftermarket advance kit so that it's "all in" by 3000.

- Eric

StarGeneral

Sorry, I had to pause and laugh at that.
I will make some marks on there and do as you said. I thought even with 12 the engine sounded "low" at idle. Thanks everyone for the help

MDchanic

Dunno why.

In English, timing is either advanced or retarded (or just right ).

In German, it's either früh or spät, which means "early" or "late."

I've always found the English way of saying it a bit confusing and the German way more clear.

- Eric

W70442

You said you didn't change the carb or adjust any of the carb settings when you removed the engine but you should know that when you adjust the timing for a specific advance and that changes the idle speed, you need to go back and adjust the idle speed to get it back to the idle speed/rpms that you want the timing to be set at. In other words, you have to go back and forth with timing adjustment and idle speed until you get the timing set where you want it at the idle speed you want.

Tim Gilliam

Okay, so does the engine have to be pulled to change the oil pan gasket or was this just the method used here?

Octania

I have pulled the pan in order to change rod bearings and smooth out the crank, with the engine in the car. Not easy, not impossible....


"I did not know rotating the unit would affect timing"
===============
Please take full advantage of your local mentor. Ask him to let you know if you are being a pest. Trade some labor for your learning? I can't get any of the kids around here to give a flying fig, hardly. Evidently they feel they will be wealthy enough to pay someone else to fix their stuff. I did manage to get the 17 yr old to change his spark plugs, and learn the hows and whys of that process.

Yeah, pulled the motor, but not sure how to set timing.... FULL SPEED AHEAD! Wow. I'd say it's working out OK, all things considered.

Spewing fuel sounds like dirt in the carb holding the needle open. You may be having your mentor run you thru a carb kit install soon...

StarGeneral

I had researched this extensively before attempting to remove the oil pan.

Basically the answer if you want to do it right is no, and doing it right is the only way worth doing it if you're trying to stop a leak.

It is possible to do it with the engine in the car, but you will have to jack the car up from the pan or the balancer and I didn't like the sound of either. Also Even once you get it jacked up, you still have a giant cross member in the way...its more headache than its worth.

droldsmorland

Tim, Yes it’s the only way to get at it correctly IMO.

StarGeneral…..X2 what W70442 said. Another tool to have in your box is a vacuum/pressure gage, $20-30 for a decent one. Plug it into a direct vacuum source off the intake (not the carb) and adjust the timing and carb air/fuel mixture screws to obtain the highest possible vacuum reading. You'll need to go back in forth between the timing and carb settings in small tweaks. Congrats…You've now done your first bit of "super tuning".

I usually do the above tweaks then road test. I will give the car as much timing as possible until it spark knocks then back off a few degrees. I keep the distributor lose enough to twist it while road testing.
My recommendations are as follows...12-14* initial (base) timing at curb idle (700-900 rpm) with the vacuum advances vacuum source plugged off. Now plug in the vac advance can and see how much more timing it adds. If it’s around 10-12* more than that’s ok. So now your total timing should be around 20*-22* at idle. If it’s outside of this get and adjustable “travel” advance canister (not an adjustable rate). This adjustable canister bolts in place of the non-adjustable canister and allows for… you guessed it, adjustment. Once these two timing events are where I (we) suggest you need to see what the centrifugal advance is. This in checked by increasing the RPMs until you see the centrifugal timing come all the way in. That should happen around 2800 RPMs. If it’s too soon say 2400 or too late say 3300 then you need to play around with different weights and or springs or stops to obtain proper full advance at about 2800. A setback style timing light is handy for this verses a standard timing light. But let’s assume its ok for the moment. Do make sure that the advance weights and springs under the rotor move freely and aren’t rusted up. Lightly lubricate as needed. Now add it all up and that’s your total timing all in at about 2800. That total number can be 34-38* on an Olds street stock engine.

Recap: Base=12*ish, Vacuum=10*ish, centrifugal=12-14*ish for a total at 2800rpm of 36ish.

I say “ish” because it all depends on the octane & type of gas, ambient conditions, elevation above sea level and how you drive. It’s up to you to dial in your car how you like it.

When you pulled the engine did you put it on an engine stand and flip the engine over to install the pan? Reason I ask is if you turned the carb upside down you may have disturbed some debris in the float bowl which could be part of your WOT (wide open throttle) problems. If you smell fuel it could be the float adjustment? Also the float may be heavy from fuel absorption. Could be time for a rebuild but let’s get your timing and carb air/fuel adjustments dialed in first.