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The timing cover should come off without loosening the oil pan bolts.
Getting it back on is a different story.
Just for the fact that the front seal is squeezed into the pan, right?
I'd wondered at one point if you could just score the part between the pan & block and just fill the gap between the new front seal & old one with some silicone or whatever..kind of the same concept as an intake gasket. I wasn't entirely sure if that'd work though as more fluid seems to be sloshed around there than between the end rail/head/intake.
That’s essentially what I did on two camshaft changes.
Joe P posted a method where he removed the alignment dowels and used eccentric bolts to force the lower seal onto the lip of the oil pan. You should be able to locate that post in a search.
Those dowels maybe very seized in there, mine were unfortunately. I wanted them removable incase I do the roller cam swap, no dice. I have done a timing chain on a sbc, not much fun. We trimmed the pan lip seal and forced the **** out of it and finally went in place. Hopefully everything goes smoothly.
Those dowels maybe very seized in there, mine were unfortunately. I wanted them removable incase I do the roller cam swap, no dice. I have done a timing chain on a sbc, not much fun. We trimmed the pan lip seal and forced the **** out of it and finally went in place. Hopefully everything goes smoothly.
The dowels are not "seized". They are installed with an "interference fit"....often referred to as a "press fit"....so they don't come out.
Alright, 1st question as I start tearing into this..
Can I keep the water pump connected to the timing cover? The sole purpose of asking..less I have to disturb gaskets, the less likely I am to create a leak.
2nd question..
Does it look like the assembly shop split a gasket and just used Ultra Grey to seal?
Worked a bit later than expected, so I didn't get too far tonight. Still need to pull the PS pump/bracketry, then Ill unhook the hoses and pull the crank pulley/balancer and start opening the thing up.
The dowels are not "seized". They are installed with an "interference fit"....often referred to as a "press fit"....so they don't come out.
Then a special puller may be needed. Hard to find one with good reviews that will easily fit under hood and doesn't cost a bunch. Heat and vise grips, even hammer on said vise grip didn't budge them at all.
Last edited by olds 307 and 403; December 30th, 2023 at 05:18 AM.
Alright, 1st question as I start tearing into this..
Can I keep the water pump connected to the timing cover? The sole purpose of asking..less I have to disturb gaskets, the less likely I am to create a leak.
I wouldn't recommend it. Some bolts on the water pump go through to the block. Also the timing cover is sheet steel and may flex when you pry it out, or force it back in. The water pump gasket seal could be separated and you wouldn't know it till you filled it with coolant. You'd find out after startup that it was leaking. I would bite the bullet and remove the water pump and then the timing cover.
Originally Posted by brotherGood
2nd question..
Does it look like the assembly shop split a gasket and just used Ultra Grey to seal?
Looks to me like there was some leak and someone resolved it by gooping it up with silicone. That was not factory, it had to have been done much later before the repaint of the engine. Commercial automotive silicone sealant didn't exist in the late 1960s.
The timing gasket kit comes with water pump gaskets (three different versions, I think) so there’s no reason to NOT remove the pump for the purpose of preserving a gasket.
Well.. after obliterating my thumb yesterday.. Pops came over and we cracked it open.
Gonna put the Cloyes billet set on tomorrow, verify it's accurate, and then work on putting everything back together. In very interested to see how it runs once everything is finally correct.
Last edited by brotherGood; December 31st, 2023 at 01:42 PM.
Looks like the timing is fine to me ? And the chain looks tight but thats hard to tell from here I think what you need to do before you take it any further apart is put a degree wheel on it and check the cam for sure. Changing the chain set is not going to prove anything.
Is it my eyes or does the crank key look distorted where it enters the crank sprocket? Also is that a three position crank sprocket?
I think its just the picture. It is a 3 keyway sprocket but appears to be installed correctly. Personally I think it is a complete waste of time to replace it and even crazier not to put a degree wheel on it and check the cam timing the way it is now.
I think its just the picture. It is a 3 keyway sprocket but appears to be installed correctly. Personally I think it is a complete waste of time to replace it and even crazier not to put a degree wheel on it and check the cam timing the way it is now.
X 2
Years ago there were Olds chain sets off as much as 8 degrees retarded !
Well, to say it's been an eventful weekend would be an understatement...but here's where its at with the car at the moment.
I'm relying on Dad to do all the wrenching as I busted my hand up pretty bad Saturday. On Monday we got the old gearset off and the new one placed-the dots still didn't align. After a troubleshooting session with CutlassEfi, the goal Tuesday was to ignore everything previous and to get the crank to TDC, line the dots up, then hook up the chain, then check where things were with .050" movement on the intake of #1.
Meanwhile, Dad has been in communication with the mechanic we used to use all of the time. He helped Dad build the short block of the Dodge I had previous, and wasn't a "slap it together and run" kind of guy. As Dad was describing the situation, he said the response he got was pretty similar to the responses I'd gotten from cutlassefi. However, things differed in the fact that he is seeming to believe that since the dots are aligned, there's only 1 notch on the cam so it "has to be at zero with the crank at zero & TDC" and has Dad under the impression that we're good to put it back together. With the worst case being its acting the same as it had, only now we're out a set of gaskets.
As much as I don't really fault that idea, I'm in agreeance with everything stated above-we're in there, we'd might as well check it at the very least for assurance. My access to a degree wheel is on hold, as the person I was borrowing it from is on vacation-but if the engine can sit open for essentially another week (yeah, that's exciting and all) in the heated garage..I'm tempted to go ahead and order a wheel and some sort of indicator/wire/whatever just for the peace of mind.
The thing I really can't wrap my head around-I swore I was at TDC when the picture was taken showing the old chain/gear. Then Monday night while troubleshooting the dots not lining up, Pops got to cranking on it (not much) and got it away from TDC. I went out and managed to at least get it back to TDC yesterday, but now the dots line up. The only thing that makes sense is maybe during the mess of taking the balancer bolt out, it spun a bit back and neither of us caught it.
No sure what you mean by this ????? The dots were fine on the original set. I still dont think you are finding tdc properly. If you are not using a tdc stop on the piston you are not finding exact tdc, period.
No sure what you mean by this ????? The dots were fine on the original set. I still dont think you are finding tdc properly. If you are not using a tdc stop on the piston you are not finding exact tdc, period.
A piston stop was used to verify TDC on the balancer a few weeks ago. Before unbolting everything, I was sure to align via balancer/timing tab where TDC was. When pulling everything apart, we found the dots did not align. When pulling old gear off/installing new gear, dots still did not align. The point was made to basically forget everything and focus on finding TDC, regardless of what the balancer had said previously. That is what was done yesterday, and now the crank dot is at 12 o'clock.
I'm not above saying I'm doing the piston stop deal incorrectly..but when I used it, it lined up pretty dang close with where the notch was on the balancer (literally a thin point sharpie line width after the notch). So, when lining everything up prior to removal, thats where I put it. I've never used one prior to this engine (never had a need to) but I wouldn't think it'd be that difficult.
A piston stop was used to verify TDC on the balancer a few weeks ago. Before unbolting everything, I was sure to align via balancer/timing tab where TDC was. When pulling everything apart, we found the dots did not align. When pulling old gear off/installing new gear, dots still did not align. The point was made to basically forget everything and focus on finding TDC, regardless of what the balancer had said previously. That is what was done yesterday, and now the crank dot is at 12 o'clock.
I'm not above saying I'm doing the piston stop deal incorrectly..but when I used it, it lined up pretty dang close with where the notch was on the balancer (literally a thin point sharpie line width after the notch). So, when lining everything up prior to removal, thats where I put it. I've never used one prior to this engine (never had a need to) but I wouldn't think it'd be that difficult.
Ok, Then it had to move when you took the damper off. I cant imagine taking an Olds crank bolt loose and pulling the damper without moving the crank.
Next step is degree wheel. I would loan you mine if you were closer
Tech advice from some of the best in the business. Getting more advice after receiving advice from some of the best in the business. Second guessing everyone's advice. Disassembly to degree a cam but no degree wheel. 100 posts. Lining up two dots that were already lined up. Wow. There oughta be a law...
Use a degree wheel. At least see if your TDC is correct, timing chain accurate and the ICL is where the cam says it is. I did all that on my build to verify.
Tech advice from some of the best in the business. Getting more advice after receiving advice from some of the best in the business. Second guessing everyone's advice. Disassembly to degree a cam but no degree wheel. 100 posts. Lining up two dots that were already lined up. Wow. There oughta be a law...
I've mentioned this multiple times all over the place..but can easily do so again. While it may appear I'm second guessing, I'm not. I simply do not have the hands on experience..and am trying to wrap my mind around what is being explained. Call it over-thinking, call it over-analyzing..whatever. Until I put hands on it, I run it mentally as many times as possibe-sometimes not even meaning to. In an instance like this where its critical NOT to screw up, my mind is going into overdrive trying to go step by step to ensure I don't do something wrong.
Originally Posted by olds 307 and 403
Use a degree wheel. At least see if your TDC is correct, timing chain accurate and the ICL is where the cam says it is. I did all that on my build to verify.
Yeah, if I had one at the house it wouldn't have even been a question. At the very least, to simply ensure I understood how to use it. I don't have one however, and the one I was going to borrow is unobtainable at the moment as the owner is on vacation. I could just print one off if absolutely necessary, thought I'd rather have a physical wheel & pointer. IF the car is okay remaining open and exposed for another week or so, I may just go ahead and order a wheel/pointer. I'm just super paranoid leaving it open. Even though it is in a heated garage, its facing the door that doesn't seal well and we're forcasted for a serious snow storm this weekend. I reckon I could just bolt the cover back on as it'll minimize what gets in, but still.
I 1000% agree..and even said that to Dad yesterday when we were talking about it. I guarantee had I not busted my hand up, this would've been much more of a simple process. No knock on him and his experience, but just because I can't get in there and be hands on. I didn't build the first engine we did, but after pulling heads enough times and fixing rocker studs-I understood valvetrain geometry much better than the forums were able to describe. That's kinda how its been throughout anything I've done.
Id half joked about getting a wheel kit anyway for down the road and using it on an engine I didn't necessarily care about..so I'll probably order one when I get home this evening. I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around if the dowel is in line with the dot on the cam gear, how I'd advance the cam yet keep the dot at 6 to match the crank (prior to rotating) but I guess that's a bridge that only needs crossed if I need it.
I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around if the dowel is in line with the dot on the cam gear, how I'd advance the cam yet keep the dot at 6 to match the crank (prior to rotating) but I guess that's a bridge that only needs crossed if I need it.
Don't worry you are fine at where you're at for the time being, seems others are getting antsy on your behalf.
If you have to move the cam to advance or retard the valve event timing - at that point you are done aligning dots on the gears and are free to move the cam in forward or reverse.
The crank stays stationary while you adjust (rotate) the camshaft (by means of a different keyway on the crank gear, a bushing in the cam gear dowel pin hole, or adjustable upper gear), to alter the valve timing events to suit their relationship with the stationary pistons.
Once the new relationship is determined and then locked into place you can make your own new reference mark on the cam gear in case it's pulled apart again !
Sorry if you were already clear on these points , but may be of use for others understanding.
From 6-29-'21
Quote :
#1 grannys442
Registered User Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 105 Errors with timing chain and balancerWhoever it was n this forum that said "double check everything" was spot on. Couldn't get the my custom cam to degree properly...off by 13 degrees. Cam supplier suggested that either the dowel in his core was off (hat's off to him for not getting defensive) or the timing gear was mismarked. Indeed when I moved the timing gear one full tooth, the cam degreed perfectly. So I "moved" the DOT on the cam timing gear. Still don't know which was wrong...the mark on the timing gear or the locaiton of the dowel in the cam core.
Next problem: I discover timing mark on harmonic balancer is waaaayyyyy off. To the tune of about 150 degrees. I had it rebuilt by Damper Doctor and someone musta been hungover that day. Since the engine was balanced with this balancer, I don't want to sent the balancer back and have them tinker around with it. I think I'll fill in the timing groove with JB Weld and cut a new timing groove and the engine paint should cover it.
: Unquote
Last edited by 68post; January 3rd, 2024 at 01:29 PM.
Reason: yes
Well, degree wheel will be in Friday. As much as I can sit there and think everything is honkey dorey.. they say numbers don't lie. Hopefully it shows up early enough Friday (and I get off work early enough) that we can get it degreed in that way while I'm out of town this weekend he can button everything up.
No kidding. I feel like that has been the theme of this build the entire time. Machining aside, had I known taking it to reliable shops would've created this much headache, I would've just bought tools up front and built it myself. Like I said earlier, Dad has experience with the bottom end, and I have experience with the top end...but I also over analyze/over think/over prepare, so I would've been extra meticulous making sure I didn't screw anything up. Half of my battle has been assuming the pro (and parts, really) did everything correctly.
Alright.. so after quite the headache I've reached an impass. Long story short, after finding TDC and resetting the degree wheel..we measured intake valve events at .050". The intake valve hits. 050" at 21° ATDC, versus the cam card showing 8° (assuming that is BTDC). I'm not sure how the heck it can be that far off (essentially 29° late). Dad seemed to think (based on seeing adjustable gear sets) that we could just unhook the chain, move the cam, hook the chain back up and check again until we got accurate numbers.. but I'm not quite willing to give that a shot yet. Gonna first call Erson as that's who made the cam, and maybe call a few others for a bit of direction on this. I'm not the brightest when it comes to all this, but I'm not an idiot.. though this is starting to make me question darn near everything.. lol
Dad seemed to think (based on seeing adjustable gear sets) that we could just unhook the chain, move the cam, hook the chain back up and check again until we got accurate numbers.. but I'm not quite willing to give that a shot yet.
That is the EXACT reason for an adjustable timing set with multiple keyways.
As said before, you are making this more difficult than it should be.
Went out while I had a few minutes to run the test again and noticed the dial was no longer making contact with the pushrod. So, I rotated the crank to ensure the pushrod was at the very bottom, then reset my indicator on it. At .050, the degree wheel showed 6.5° BTDC. Ran that back and forth a couple more times and got the same result.. so I'm wondering if the dial was on wrong and/or it wasn't at the bottom.
So..IF this is correct.. its 1.5° retarded at the moment. The next question would be whether I go ahead and move it to the A2 notch on the crank to account for both what it's currently retarded plus eventual slack.
Do one thing at a time, focus only on that and don’t worry about the other stuff while you are doing it.
Get your required tasks in order. Then focus on only one. For example: find TDC. Only do what needs to be done to accomplish this (gather tools, remove plugs, valve cover, etc.). Be concerned only about completing this task - write down what you are going to do and then write down what you did for later. Once the task is done, it’s done, so move to your next logical step.
A lot of us amateurs will try to think about everything at once despite the confusion that brings. Please don’t let yourself get sucked into that trap.
As Maj. Charles Winchester from the tv show MASH once said, “I do something once, I do it very well, and I move on.”
Cam Degreeing Instructions from Summit Cam Degreeing kit. See in below screen shots and attached PDF.
Step 12 tells you how to adjust once you have determined your Intake Center Line.
December 27th, 2023, 08:44 AM
I think what you need to do before you take it any further apart is put a degree wheel on it and check the cam for sure. Changing the chain set is not going to prove anything.
