hard freeze now no fuel
January 7th, 2014, 02:35 PM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 73
hard freeze now no fuel
had the first hard freeze since getting the cutlass (455). the carb isnt getting fuel to it. pulled fuel line going into fuel pump and its dry. just put fuel in it the day before the freeze so im not sure what to do next. the only thing i can think of is the fuel line freezing up somehow. has anyone else had this problem, or maybe the fuel pump died in the freeze.
thanks for the help
thanks for the help
January 7th, 2014, 03:12 PM
#3
Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Poteau, Ok
Posts: 40,627
Is the car sitting in an area where the temp is above or below freezing at the moment?
How much fuel did you put in it the day before? Can you hook some compressed air and blow the line from the fuel pump back into the tank? The pump will not pump fuel that is not there, so it's probably not the pump. Also check the rubber line for cracks that is between the tank and the main line to the pump.
How much fuel did you put in it the day before? Can you hook some compressed air and blow the line from the fuel pump back into the tank? The pump will not pump fuel that is not there, so it's probably not the pump. Also check the rubber line for cracks that is between the tank and the main line to the pump.
January 7th, 2014, 03:40 PM
#4
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 73
it must be water in the tank and not being able to pull fuel. its right at freezing right now. thanks for the input. i drive my self crazy sometimes trying to fix something and there is no way to fix this just put it some where warm and wait
January 7th, 2014, 04:26 PM
#6
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 180
I agree, it's probably water in the tank; today's ethanol-laced fuel tends to pull water out of the air, and it will go to the bottom of the tank, where the fuel pickup tube is. And it's not unusual to get water in fuel from the service station, as they have the same problem with condensation! 
Only warm weather will thaw the ice, but it would not hurt to use some isopropyl alcohol to soak up the water, so it will burn.
There are additives such as Sta-Bil Marine fuel treatment to help stabilize the fuel, and emulsify the water.....but it is not cheap! I use it on all my outdoor equipment, because today's gas has a shelf life of about 3 weeks!
Only warm weather will thaw the ice, but it would not hurt to use some isopropyl alcohol to soak up the water, so it will burn.
There are additives such as Sta-Bil Marine fuel treatment to help stabilize the fuel, and emulsify the water.....but it is not cheap! I use it on all my outdoor equipment, because today's gas has a shelf life of about 3 weeks!
January 7th, 2014, 04:38 PM
#7
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Komoka Ontario Canada
Posts: 243
Stabil
+2 on the Stabil, I use it on all my lawn equipment, my bike, and cars during storage. I have got into this habit many years ago with a gummed up carb from bad gas. In our part of the world gas line anti-freeze helps where stored in the cold. Also a full tank will keep condensation from forming.
Mark
Mark
January 7th, 2014, 05:23 PM
#8
72 Olds CS
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 6,657
all good replies but if you have more than a capful of water in your tank you need to drop the tank and drain the water, gasline antifreeze stabil etc will bind w the water molecules and allow them to be drawn out but w a lot of water you just cant get enough AF in there to get it out.
I bought a f250 15years old 15k miles owner said sometimes it spits at ya I throw a little AF in the tank.... one week of stalling and no starts and me throwing AF in the tank and i dropped the tank and found about a 1/2 gallon of water in there
no problems after that !!!!
I bought a f250 15years old 15k miles owner said sometimes it spits at ya I throw a little AF in the tank.... one week of stalling and no starts and me throwing AF in the tank and i dropped the tank and found about a 1/2 gallon of water in there
no problems after that !!!!
January 7th, 2014, 06:10 PM
#10
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,286
Dropping the tank can be a $500 project in Michigan.
Maybe not on a Cutlass, but any fuel injected vehicle.
January 7th, 2014, 06:47 PM
#11
72 Olds CS
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 6,657
mass
it was a 79 f250 in the early 90s. Funny side story one time I had my buddy tow the f250 after it died to my house about a mile away w his VW rabbit. that was about the last straw before I dropped the tank (for free)
it was a 79 f250 in the early 90s. Funny side story one time I had my buddy tow the f250 after it died to my house about a mile away w his VW rabbit. that was about the last straw before I dropped the tank (for free)
January 7th, 2014, 08:22 PM
#12
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: North Delta, BC
Posts: 1,067
I suggest you get the car indoors to de-thaw and then make sure you run gas line antifreeze (methanol) in your tank. Chances are you have a lot of condensation in your system and even a little swimming pool in your carb especially if you just ran the tank low.
Sometimes you just need to thaw everything out. Hope this helps and good luck.
Sometimes you just need to thaw everything out. Hope this helps and good luck.
January 8th, 2014, 08:51 AM
#15
Old(s) Fart
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 47,463
had the first hard freeze since getting the cutlass (455). the carb isnt getting fuel to it. pulled fuel line going into fuel pump and its dry. just put fuel in it the day before the freeze so im not sure what to do next. the only thing i can think of is the fuel line freezing up somehow. has anyone else had this problem, or maybe the fuel pump died in the freeze.
thanks for the help
thanks for the help
As others have noted, this is a very common problem for carbureted cars in cold climates. Water in the tank (either from the gas station's underground storage tanks or from condensation) gets into the lines and freezes. Since the fuel pump is sucking at only a few PSI, it can't overcome the obstruction, so no fuel. The only fix now is to get the car into a heated garage to melt the ice, since there's no way to know where it is. Once melted, get fuel additive to eliminate the water. As noted, these are all alcohol based. The alcohol is hygroscopic and absorbs the water, allowing it to be burned (OK, vaporized) in the combustion chamber.
January 8th, 2014, 09:05 AM
#16
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Mo-Ray-Al, K-Bec.
Posts: 1,815
I hope the irony of adding an alcohol product to the gas tank to help resolve a problem made worse by the petrol companies having added alcohol to the fuel is not lost on everyone.
Put away your tinfoil hat, there is no conspiracy here. We had frozen gas lines far more frequently in the 1960s, looooong before ethanol was ever added to gasoline.
Put away your tinfoil hat, there is no conspiracy here. We had frozen gas lines far more frequently in the 1960s, looooong before ethanol was ever added to gasoline.
January 8th, 2014, 10:31 AM
#17
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 180
I hope the irony of adding an alcohol product to the gas tank to help resolve a problem made worse by the petrol companies having added alcohol to the fuel is not lost on everyone.
Put away your tinfoil hat, there is no conspiracy here. We had frozen gas lines far more frequently in the 1960s, looooong before ethanol was ever added to gasoline.
Put away your tinfoil hat, there is no conspiracy here. We had frozen gas lines far more frequently in the 1960s, looooong before ethanol was ever added to gasoline.
I don't know how many times I had just filled up with fresh gas, only to have the car quit 5 miles down the road, and had to be towed. 
What "frosts" me the most is that we are required to have ethanol in our gas, when it decreases the fuel mileage (at almost $4.00/gal., it's not to be sneezed at!), and is highly detrimental to anyone driving an older car not designed for the corrosive properties of alcohol!
January 8th, 2014, 10:34 AM
#18
Old(s) Fart
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 47,463
What "frosts" me the most is that we are required to have ethanol in our gas, when it decreases the fuel mileage (at almost $4.00/gal., it's not to be sneezed at!), and is highly detrimental to anyone driving an older car not designed for the corrosive properties of alcohol!
January 8th, 2014, 01:47 PM
#19
Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Poteau, Ok
Posts: 40,627
Water in gas station fuel storage tanks has been an issue since the dawn of time. It used to be gas stations were required to check for water content periodically and if there was more than a specified level at the bottom of the tank then it needed to be pumped out.
When I was a kid we used a long wooden measuring stick and litmus paste.
When I was a kid we used a long wooden measuring stick and litmus paste.
January 8th, 2014, 02:20 PM
#20
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Mo-Ray-Al, K-Bec.
Posts: 1,815
I hope the irony of adding an alcohol product to the gas tank to help resolve a problem made worse by the petrol companies having added alcohol to the fuel is not lost on everyone.
Put away your tinfoil hat, there is no conspiracy here. We had frozen gas lines far more frequently in the 1960s, looooong before ethanol was ever added to gasoline.
Put away your tinfoil hat, there is no conspiracy here. We had frozen gas lines far more frequently in the 1960s, looooong before ethanol was ever added to gasoline.
Hmmm... I don't remember posting that second part at all.
January 8th, 2014, 03:34 PM
#21
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 73
Ended up putting a small bottle full of gas on the hose leading into the pump. It sucked two of them dry and then ran like a dream again. Dripping water out the tail pipe like crazy at the moment hopefully it doesn't turn into the an ice cap in colorado tonight. Thanks for the help would have pulled my hair out without it
January 9th, 2014, 06:48 AM
#24
Connoisseur d'Junque
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: The Hudson Valley
Posts: 21,183
Just a note about the effect of alcohol in gasoline with regard to water and ice:
Water is a "polar" solvent, which means that its molecules have electrically positive and negative ends, which tend to line up in accordance to their polarity, sort of like iron filings with a magnet.
Gasoline (and all other "oil-based" solvents) is a "non-polar" solvent and its molecules do not have positive and negative ends.
These facts result in different behaviors of the two substances, and in the well known fact that water and oil, or water and gasoline, don't mix (actually, they can mix, but only very slightly).
Alcohols have a polar end (an oxygen connected to a hydrogen, which is the better part of a water molecule) and a non-polar end (methanol has methane, ethanol has ethane, isopropanol has isopropane, etc.), which allows them to mix with both polar and non-polar solvents.
If you buy alcohol in the store, you can get rubbing alcohol (isopropanol) in various concentrations, such as 70% and 91%. The other part is water.
You can also get ethanol in various concentrations, such as 80 proof (40%) and 151 proof (75%), and the other part is mostly water (along with sugars and other stuff).
Everyone knows that if you put ice cubes in a glass of scotch, the water will mix with the scotch, and will not sit in the bottom of the glass with the scotch on top, because water and alcohol mix readily. You can do the experiment at home right now and prove it (even though it's not noon yet).
The other experiment is to take some fairly concentrated alcohol (such as 91% isopropanol) and mix it with an equal amount of water - if you mix 1 cup of alcohol and 1 cup of water, you will end up with LESS than 2 cups of the mixture, because the molecules fit between each other when they dissolve.
You can also mix alcohol with oil or gasoline, and you will discover that they mix together as well. Alcohols with non-polar ends that are more like the oil or gasoline will mix better than ones that are less similar (so methanol and ethanol will mix better than isopropanol).
The point here is that the more alcohol is mixed with gasoline, the more water will be held dissolved in the solution, rather than being allowed to separate and sink to the bottom, where it can be sucked into the lines and freeze.
In practice, the mandatory addition of ethanol to gasoline, though it reduces the energy contained in a gallon of gas (an alcohol molecule has less energy than a gasoline molecule), and therefore reduces gas mileage, also serves to prevent fuel line icing.
As has been stated above, frozen fuel lines were a very common occurrence back in the "good old days," when there was no alcohol in the gasoline to prevent it, and we used to intentionally ADD alcohol to our gas in order to prevent it. They happen less now, because of the mandatory alcohol in the gasoline, though this same alcohol does decrease our fuel economy, and also causes accelerated corrosion by allowing more water to be suspended in the gasoline and holding it against all of our fuel system parts.
- Eric
Water is a "polar" solvent, which means that its molecules have electrically positive and negative ends, which tend to line up in accordance to their polarity, sort of like iron filings with a magnet.
Gasoline (and all other "oil-based" solvents) is a "non-polar" solvent and its molecules do not have positive and negative ends.
These facts result in different behaviors of the two substances, and in the well known fact that water and oil, or water and gasoline, don't mix (actually, they can mix, but only very slightly).
Alcohols have a polar end (an oxygen connected to a hydrogen, which is the better part of a water molecule) and a non-polar end (methanol has methane, ethanol has ethane, isopropanol has isopropane, etc.), which allows them to mix with both polar and non-polar solvents.
If you buy alcohol in the store, you can get rubbing alcohol (isopropanol) in various concentrations, such as 70% and 91%. The other part is water.
You can also get ethanol in various concentrations, such as 80 proof (40%) and 151 proof (75%), and the other part is mostly water (along with sugars and other stuff).
Everyone knows that if you put ice cubes in a glass of scotch, the water will mix with the scotch, and will not sit in the bottom of the glass with the scotch on top, because water and alcohol mix readily. You can do the experiment at home right now and prove it (even though it's not noon yet
).The other experiment is to take some fairly concentrated alcohol (such as 91% isopropanol) and mix it with an equal amount of water - if you mix 1 cup of alcohol and 1 cup of water, you will end up with LESS than 2 cups of the mixture, because the molecules fit between each other when they dissolve.
You can also mix alcohol with oil or gasoline, and you will discover that they mix together as well. Alcohols with non-polar ends that are more like the oil or gasoline will mix better than ones that are less similar (so methanol and ethanol will mix better than isopropanol).
The point here is that the more alcohol is mixed with gasoline, the more water will be held dissolved in the solution, rather than being allowed to separate and sink to the bottom, where it can be sucked into the lines and freeze.
In practice, the mandatory addition of ethanol to gasoline, though it reduces the energy contained in a gallon of gas (an alcohol molecule has less energy than a gasoline molecule), and therefore reduces gas mileage, also serves to prevent fuel line icing.
As has been stated above, frozen fuel lines were a very common occurrence back in the "good old days," when there was no alcohol in the gasoline to prevent it, and we used to intentionally ADD alcohol to our gas in order to prevent it. They happen less now, because of the mandatory alcohol in the gasoline, though this same alcohol does decrease our fuel economy, and also causes accelerated corrosion by allowing more water to be suspended in the gasoline and holding it against all of our fuel system parts.
- Eric
January 9th, 2014, 08:36 AM
#25
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 180
Everyone knows that if you put ice cubes in a glass of scotch, the water will mix with the scotch, and will not sit in the bottom of the glass with the scotch on top, because water and alcohol mix readily. You can do the experiment at home right now and prove it (even though it's not noon yet ).
The other experiment is to take some fairly concentrated alcohol (such as 91% isopropanol) and mix it with an equal amount of water - if you mix 1 cup of alcohol and 1 cup of water, you will end up with LESS than 2 cups of the mixture, because the molecules fit between each other when they dissolve.
In practice, the mandatory addition of ethanol to gasoline, though it reduces the energy contained in a gallon of gas (an alcohol molecule has less energy than a gasoline molecule), and therefore reduces gas mileage, also serves to prevent fuel line icing.
As has been stated above, frozen fuel lines were a very common occurrence back in the "good old days," when there was no alcohol in the gasoline to prevent it, and we used to intentionally ADD alcohol to our gas in order to prevent it. They happen less now, because of the mandatory alcohol in the gasoline, though this same alcohol does decrease our fuel economy, and also causes accelerated corrosion by allowing more water to be suspended in the gasoline and holding it against all of our fuel system parts.
- Eric
).The other experiment is to take some fairly concentrated alcohol (such as 91% isopropanol) and mix it with an equal amount of water - if you mix 1 cup of alcohol and 1 cup of water, you will end up with LESS than 2 cups of the mixture, because the molecules fit between each other when they dissolve.
In practice, the mandatory addition of ethanol to gasoline, though it reduces the energy contained in a gallon of gas (an alcohol molecule has less energy than a gasoline molecule), and therefore reduces gas mileage, also serves to prevent fuel line icing.
As has been stated above, frozen fuel lines were a very common occurrence back in the "good old days," when there was no alcohol in the gasoline to prevent it, and we used to intentionally ADD alcohol to our gas in order to prevent it. They happen less now, because of the mandatory alcohol in the gasoline, though this same alcohol does decrease our fuel economy, and also causes accelerated corrosion by allowing more water to be suspended in the gasoline and holding it against all of our fuel system parts.
- Eric
Thanks, Eric!
That's a very good simple explanation of just why nobody can get the fuel mileage out of their older cars that they used to get!
And alcohol is very corrosive to fuel system parts, especially carburetors and fuel pumps and rubber fuel system components. Newer cars do no have that problem, as they are "hopefully" designed for it! That said, I think I will try your suggestion of ice cubes in a glass of alcohol.....although I prefer bourbon, rye, or gin to scotch!
January 9th, 2014, 09:20 AM
#26
CH3NO2 LEARN IT BURN IT
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Land of Taxes
Posts: 4,884
All good post here. You very well may need to drop the tank and start from scratch with a known water-less fuel tank. Good time to inspect the tank, sender, hard & soft line & sock etc...
Bottom line is after you verify your water-less is... 1. store your car with a full tank. 2. add the marine (blue) stabil to said full tank. 3. Use the isopropyl (not the methanol based) fuel line antifreeze. 4. If you can find it in your area only gas up with non-ethanol gas. The Fastracks have it around me. Its all I run in my old school machines cars, mowers, saws, gen-set etc...ethanol isnt designed to go into old school machines...especially ones that spend a lot of time sitting. Dam big brother federal regulations...now they want it to go to 15% ethanol! Pretty soon well be back to steam engines
Bottom line is after you verify your water-less is... 1. store your car with a full tank. 2. add the marine (blue) stabil to said full tank. 3. Use the isopropyl (not the methanol based) fuel line antifreeze. 4. If you can find it in your area only gas up with non-ethanol gas. The Fastracks have it around me. Its all I run in my old school machines cars, mowers, saws, gen-set etc...ethanol isnt designed to go into old school machines...especially ones that spend a lot of time sitting. Dam big brother federal regulations...now they want it to go to 15% ethanol! Pretty soon well be back to steam engines
Last edited by droldsmorland; January 9th, 2014 at 09:25 AM.
January 9th, 2014, 09:24 AM
#27
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 73
January 9th, 2014, 09:30 AM
#28
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 73
All good post here. You very well may need to drop the tank and start from scratch with a known water-less fuel tank. Good time to inspect the tank, sender, hard & soft line & sock etc...
Bottom line is after you verify your water-less is... 1. store your car with a full tank. 2. add the marine (blue) stabil to said full tank. 3. Use the isopropyl (not the methanol based) fuel line antifreeze. 4. If you can find it in your area only gas up with non-ethanol gas. The Fastracks have it around me. Its all I run in my old school machines cars, mowers, saws, gen-set etc...ethanol isnt designed to go into old school machines...especially ones that spend a lot of time sitting. Dam big brother federal regulations...now they want it to go to 15% ethanol! Pretty soon well be back to steam engines
Bottom line is after you verify your water-less is... 1. store your car with a full tank. 2. add the marine (blue) stabil to said full tank. 3. Use the isopropyl (not the methanol based) fuel line antifreeze. 4. If you can find it in your area only gas up with non-ethanol gas. The Fastracks have it around me. Its all I run in my old school machines cars, mowers, saws, gen-set etc...ethanol isnt designed to go into old school machines...especially ones that spend a lot of time sitting. Dam big brother federal regulations...now they want it to go to 15% ethanol! Pretty soon well be back to steam engines
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
cjprm
Interior/Upholstery
1
May 19th, 2011 09:17 AM
oldsdroptop
General Discussion
11
June 2nd, 2009 07:03 PM
