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Im quite unsure in selecting/choosing pistons, because i understand all the facts that make modern pistons better, lighter, less friction and so on, and on the other hand, i see that really fancy engine projects from people who are investing maybe a lot more €/$ than i will are going with speed pros. This makes me think 'those are good enough for my project too'.
Thanks for your help!
If the less friction more modern pistons cost the same as speed pros, it's probably worth making the change.
If the less friction more modern pistons cost the same as speed pros, it's probably worth making the change.
I completely understand the advantage of lighter/modern pistons. I have still not decided which way to go for my rotating assembly.
what about hypereuthetic pistons? I read that they combinate the advantages of forged and cast pistons (less piston to wall clearance needed and still stronger than cast).
im thinking about purchasing a whole balanced rotating assembly kit with eagle crank, eagle H beam rods and proper pistons maybe from CNC motorsports, because its difficult to find very good machine shops here (and theyr very expensive), i guess it wouldnt make a very big price difference compared to buying pistons alone, and reconditioning/balancing my stock rotating assembly + the fact that i would have lighter and stronger h-beam rods too + press fit pistons delete. Alone that would save me about 100€, if i could attach the pistons to the rods by myself.
i would very apprechiate some opionions to a whole balanced rotating assembly kit, maybe someone has already purchased parts from CNC motorsports.
I tried electrolysis for the first time and well, it works very good. I wanted to get the rusty crud out of the coolant pockets of the heads and its very impressive how much nasty stuff gets pulled out.
I used just water and regular washing soda + a cheap battery charger.
Now, nearly all the coolant pocket rust/crud is gone. Had to be very fast with oiling after electrolysis to prevent from flash rust.
Last edited by 71OldscutlassS; December 19th, 2022 at 11:14 PM.
Im pretty happy with the result. All the costs for is had been 2 bags of washing soda for 1.70€ each at the local supermarket.
Did the second head today:
when i washed it after the electrolysis, it accidentally dopped over from the waters pressure on the black-asphalt ground (no hard concrete).
no damage is visable, but maybe i should worry for a possible crack? There is a thread here on classicoldsmobile where the same thing happened to another guy.
I plan on magnafluxing (or have them magnafluxed) them anyway, just need to find a shop in my range that can do this.
Or, since i like doing stuff (and learning stuff) by myself, is there a methode that this can be done at home? As what ive seen on some videos, all it needs is magnaflux powder and an electro-magnet.
Today, i measured my bores, 0° and 90° and Piston-to-deck height with #1 stock piston at TDC, which is about .034. I need this measurement to determine how much has to be surfaced from heads and block to compensate for the thicker fel-pro gaskets.
The measurements in Inches are the green.
Seems like they got some taper + they are bigger when measured from 'engine left-to-right' than 'engine front to back' lol.
probably .020 over would be enough, but i guess most pistons are only available with .030 over.
Last edited by 71OldscutlassS; December 21st, 2022 at 09:46 AM.
I tried electrolysis for the first time and well, it works very good. I wanted to get the rusty crud out of the coolant pockets of the heads and its very impressive how much nasty stuff gets pulled out.
I used just water and regular washing soda + a cheap battery charger.
Now, nearly all the coolant pocket rust/crud is gone. Had to be very fast with oiling after electrolysis to prevent from flash rust.
Wow those look great! What type of washing soda did you use?
Wow those look great! What type of washing soda did you use?
Thanks a lot! They had only 1 type of washing soda in my local supermarket, so i used what they had:
I think its not that important which kind of washing soda you take. Just any kind of.
did the same procedure to my block too for about 20 hours. Took a big tub and made some kathodes for the positive wire out of crap steel (some AT cooler lines as well) to surround the block as good as possible. It pulled a LOT of crap and rust out of the block.
The result:
water pockets came out quite clean, not 'perfect', and theres still a bit surface rust, but the worst crud has came off. Im sure there would be better 'chemicals' than washing soda and maybe stronger electrizity supplys to get a perfect result, but thats what i had and for me, its good enough.
Washing soda is sodium carbonate - the media used in soda blasting. It's great for cleaning paint, grease, and other contaminates from metal and non-metallic parts. It does not remove rust.
Ok, so maybe i took the wrong stuff. . Is the 'american' washing soda some kind of dish washing powder?
I always thought the american 'washing soda' is the same what we call washing soda. Our 'european washing soda' is normally used for laundry. People use this specially for very dirty/oily working clothes, so since that it removed the oily/greasy dirt in the block and heads quite well, it must have done its job too lol.
Ok, so maybe i took the wrong stuff. . Is the 'american' washing soda some kind of dish washing powder?
I always thought the american 'washing soda' is the same what we call washing soda. Our 'european washing soda' is normally used for laundry. People use this specially for very dirty/oily working clothes, so since that it removed the oily/greasy dirt in the block and heads quite well, it must have done its job too lol.
"Washing soda" is sodium carbonate around the world. If your intent was to remove grease and paint without damaging anything, that's exactly what you should be using.
Washing soda is sodium carbonate - the media used in soda blasting. It's great for cleaning paint, grease, and other contaminates from metal and non-metallic parts. It does not remove rust.
isnt it the chemical reactions on the metals surface during the electrolysis that removes the rust and the degreasing propertys of washing soda is just a nice side effect?
Haha im definitely no washing products/chemical expert, but so far, for the price and the results, the home electrolysis did its job.
isnt it the chemical reactions on the metals surface during the electrolysis that removes the rust and the degreasing propertys of washing soda is just a nice side effect?
Haha im definitely no washing products/chemical expert, but so far, for the price and the results, the home electrolysis did its job.
Sorry, I guess I'm not following that closely. I was talking about soda blasting, where the mechanical impacts of the soda crystals perform the cleaning. If you're talking about soaking in an electrolysis solution, that's a different process. Apologies for the confusion.
Sorry, I guess I'm not following that closely. I was talking about soda blasting, where the mechanical impacts of the soda crystals perform the cleaning. If you're talking about soaking in an electrolysis solution, that's a different process. Apologies for the confusion.
yeah, i was talking about soaking in electrolysis solution made with water/washing soda, mostly to get the crud out of the water jackets. no problem
I tried electrolysis for the first time and well, it works very good. I wanted to get the rusty crud out of the coolant pockets of the heads and its very impressive how much nasty stuff gets pulled out.
I used just water and regular washing soda + a cheap battery charger.
Now, nearly all the coolant pocket rust/crud is gone. Had to be very fast with oiling after electrolysis to prevent from flash rust.
Now, I am a little curious/confused. Would "our" (American) laundry detergents be all that is needed using the electrolysis process " ? For "Soda blasting" it clearly wouldn't work like soda.
Now, I am a little curious/confused. Would "our" (American) laundry detergents be all that is needed using the electrolysis process " ? For "Soda blasting" it clearly wouldn't work like soda.
I saw a few videos on youtube where people showing this methode for cleaning rusty engine parts, so i just tried it for a test with a rusty piece of metal. And, as i saw that it worked, i did the same with the heads and block. I used nothing more than a solution out of water and the (laundry) washing soda that was available here around. Note that this washing soda is not the "washing powder" thats used in the washing machine for daily laundry. I think people used washing soda mostly in the past, for hand washing laundry where no other fancy washing stuff like liquides and so on have been available. It was lying hidden in the lowest part of the shelf in the supermarket. I bet i was the first person in weeks that bought the washing soda there, i even had to ask the staff where it is lol
Now, I am a little curious/confused. Would "our" (American) laundry detergents be all that is needed using the electrolysis process " ? For "Soda blasting" it clearly wouldn't work like soda.
Ralph, actually it does work. The washing soda improves the conductivity of the water to facilitate the electrolytic process.
Washing soda is sodium carbonate. When dissolved in water, it becomes sodium and carbonate ions. The total combined solution is known as an electrolyte. You may have heard this term associated with batteries and capacitors. Electrolytes provide the same function in those electronic components -- the easy transfer of electricity.
I saw a few videos on youtube where people showing this methode for cleaning rusty engine parts, so i just tried it for a test with a rusty piece of metal. And, as i saw that it worked, i did the same with the heads and block. I used nothing more than a solution out of water and the (laundry) washing soda that was available here around. Note that this washing soda is not the "washing powder" thats used in the washing machine for daily laundry. I think people used washing soda mostly in the past, for hand washing laundry where no other fancy washing stuff like liquides and so on have been available. It was lying hidden in the lowest part of the shelf in the supermarket. I bet i was the first person in weeks that bought the washing soda there, i even had to ask the staff where it is lol
I think I am going to look for "washing soda". I'll probably throw some of each into the solution to cut the grease and oil. I have been wanting to try this electrolysis thing.
You'll probably find Arm&Hammer brand at most any US grocery store, referring to washing soda. Those parts look great, cleaned up nicely.
I'll put that on my "grocery list".
Originally Posted by joe_padavano
Ralph, actually it does work. The washing soda improves the conductivity of the water to facilitate the electrolytic process......
Washing soda is sodium carbonate. When dissolved in water, it becomes sodium and carbonate ions. The total combined solution is known as an electrolyte. You may have heard this term associated with batteries and capacitors. Electrolytes provide the same function in those electronic components -- the easy transfer of electricity.
Joe P, thank you for clarifying things. You are a big help to many people on here, and I am just one of them..
Originally Posted by drolds442w30
Wow what a science lesson we all got today!
for Yes, good science that is helpful ! There is no reason to click around the internet to take a poll for information, advice and facts, when you have people right here (ClassicOldsmobile) that are a wealth of the correct information.
Last edited by OLDSter Ralph; December 26th, 2022 at 04:10 PM.
Joe P, thank you for clarifying things. You are a big help to many people on here, and I am just one of them..
for Yes, good science that is helpful ! There is no reason to click around the internet to take a poll for information, advice and facts, when you have people right here (ClassicOldsmobile) that are a wealth of the correct information.
Today, i measured the journals of the stock N-Crankshaft. Unfortunately, in my shop i have only 53,6°F, ideal room temperature for accurate measurings would be ~ 68°F, but anyway, these are the Results:
the Specs are from my 71 CSM, but i guess theyre fine for a 69 455 too. It seems like the crank is in good condition, all measurements are in the spec range. Maybe some polishing of the rod journals would be no bad idea, speacially for the 7/8 rod journal. This one looks a bit more scratched than the others and showed the 'worst' measuring result.
7/8 Rod Journal:
1/2 Rod Journal:
3/4 Rod Journal:
5/6 Rod Journal:
I still dont know which way i should go with the rotating assembly, and thats why i dont know if i will re-use the Stock N-Crank, but its good to know that its in a quite good condition.
Today, i measured the journals of the stock N-Crankshaft. Unfortunately, in my shop i have only 53,6°F, ideal room temperature for accurate measurings would be ~ 68°F, but anyway, these are the Results:
the Specs are from my 71 CSM, but i guess theyre fine for a 69 455 too. It seems like the crank is in good condition, all measurements are in the spec range. Maybe some polishing of the rod journals would be no bad idea, specially for the 7/8 rod journal. This one looks a bit more scratched than the others and showed the 'worst' measuring result.
I still dont know which way i should go with the rotating assembly, and thats why i dont know if i will re-use the Stock N-Crank, but its good to know that its in a quite good condition.
What are you thinking about with the rotating assembly ? The "N" crank can be polished on the rod and main journals and would be a good idea. You're going to remeasure everything at room temperature before you start assembly.
What are you thinking about with the rotating assembly ? The "N" crank can be polished on the rod and main journals and would be a good idea. You're going to remeasure everything at room temperature before you start assembly.
I guess when it comes to reassembly, winter will be over . But yeah, i can take the crank to my workplace, there its good room temperature to re-measure everything.
I am thinking about purchasing a complete balanced eagle rotating assembly with Eagle H beam rods and proper non-press fit pistons, maybe from CNC-Motorsports.
First, i thought just going with stock Crank and Rods + Speed pro 2323f pistons, but since everyone here claims to avoid them i am thinking about going with a complete kit, because maybe reconditioning stock crank and rods + the cost for assembly of (maybe icon or KB) press fit pistons + balancing will bring it close to the price for a better rotating assembly with h beams, better/lighter pistons than speed pros and that comes already balanced.
Just thinking.
i apprechiate any ideas/advices for a recipe for my build
I guess when it comes to reassembly, winter will be over . But yeah, i can take the crank to my workplace, there its good room temperature to re-measure everything.
I am thinking about purchasing a complete balanced eagle rotating assembly with Eagle H beam rods and proper non-press fit pistons, maybe from CNC-Motorsports.
First, i thought just going with stock Crank and Rods + Speed pro 2323f pistons, but since everyone here claims to avoid them i am thinking about going with a complete kit, because maybe reconditioning stock crank and rods + the cost for assembly of (maybe icon or KB) press fit pistons + balancing will bring it close to the price for a better rotating assembly with h beams, better/lighter pistons than speed pros and that comes already balanced.
Just thinking. i appreciate any ideas/advice for a recipe for my build
I think what people are trying to tell you is.....if you are going to buy new pistons, buy the newest, and lightest pistons available with a "modern" ring pack....if there isn't a huge difference in price. The "N" crank should be fine for you. Maybe buy some H beam connecting rods. "H" beam connecting rods would be lighter and stronger. Lighter components would require a re-balance. A lighter reciprocating assembly will rev up a little quicker.
Keep in mind those "old" technology pistons (2323F) were an "upgrade" from the factory (Oldsmobile) cast pistons and were used for many years. In fact, I have a set of those pistons "on the shelf" for use in an engine. They will be just fine in a 4,500 pound Olds Starfire or other "non-performance" application that will just cruise down the road.
I thought you were trying to get your 455 overhauled on a budget and ready to go in your car. The Eagle kit will run you 2350 Euro's with a few options + shipping + other taxes and fees. They might balance it, but you still have to measure and verify size and clearances.
Your problem with the 455 won't be a slow reving engine.........it will be rear tires big enough to have traction.
I guess when it comes to reassembly, winter will be over . But yeah, i can take the crank to my workplace, there its good room temperature to re-measure everything.
I am thinking about purchasing a complete balanced eagle rotating assembly with Eagle H beam rods and proper non-press fit pistons, maybe from CNC-Motorsports.
First, i thought just going with stock Crank and Rods + Speed pro 2323f pistons, but since everyone here claims to avoid them i am thinking about going with a complete kit, because maybe reconditioning stock crank and rods + the cost for assembly of (maybe icon or KB) press fit pistons + balancing will bring it close to the price for a better rotating assembly with h beams, better/lighter pistons than speed pros and that comes already balanced.
Just thinking.
i apprechiate any ideas/advices for a recipe for my build
I would not advise the Eagle crankshaft! We had heard of many problems with their overall Quality and accuracy. A project came up that needed a crankshaft. We thought how bad can one really be and ordered one. Sorry to say the quality of measurements and balance were POOR! Unusable out of the box!
I guess when it comes to reassembly, winter will be over . But yeah, i can take the crank to my workplace, there its good room temperature to re-measure everything.
I am thinking about purchasing a complete balanced eagle rotating assembly with Eagle H beam rods and proper non-press fit pistons, maybe from CNC-Motorsports.
First, i thought just going with stock Crank and Rods + Speed pro 2323f pistons, but since everyone here claims to avoid them i am thinking about going with a complete kit, because maybe reconditioning stock crank and rods + the cost for assembly of (maybe icon or KB) press fit pistons + balancing will bring it close to the price for a better rotating assembly with h beams, better/lighter pistons than speed pros and that comes already balanced.
Just thinking.
i apprechiate any ideas/advices for a recipe for my build
you’re under estimating your ability here. Your attention to detail and measurement’s are very good.
there is no need for any special thrust bumper when using the factory style roller cam,, the distributor and oil pump pull the cam back in the block similar to a flat tappet…the forward thrust is negligible… which is easy to do.
I think what people are trying to tell you is.....if you are going to buy new pistons, buy the newest, and lightest pistons available with a "modern" ring pack....if there isn't a huge difference in price. The "N" crank should be fine for you. Maybe buy some H beam connecting rods. "H" beam connecting rods would be lighter and stronger. Lighter components would require a re-balance. A lighter reciprocating assembly will rev up a little quicker.
Keep in mind those "old" technology pistons (2323F) were an "upgrade" from the factory (Oldsmobile) cast pistons and were used for many years. In fact, I have a set of those pistons "on the shelf" for use in an engine. They will be just fine in a 4,500 pound Olds Starfire or other "non-performance" application that will just cruise down the road.
I thought you were trying to get your 455 overhauled on a budget and ready to go in your car. The Eagle kit will run you 2350 Euro's with a few options + shipping + other taxes and fees. They might balance it, but you still have to measure and verify size and clearances.
Your problem with the 455 won't be a slow reving engine.........it will be rear tires big enough to have traction.
Others may have opinions.
At the beginning, i hoped that the bores are in a better condition, and IF they had been, i would have run the engine with its stock rotating assembly. Just freshen up the heads.
But, now that the top of the bores are pretty worn, i will definitely go with oversized pistons.
Yeah, i read often here on this forum that eagle cranks are not recommended just out of the box, some come bent?.
i know that my stock N-Crank would be good to go for my build. It just would be a 'nice to have' if i wouldnt have to rebalance anything with a complete kit, but your right, its very expensive to pay shipping for such heavy parts like a crankshaft.
So, at the moment, im trending to polishing my N-Crank + Eagle H-Beams + proper 'modern' pistons + rebalance everything.
Any advice for good (maybe not the most expensive) Pistons is very welcome
Maybe someone has a similar rotating assembly with N Crank/Eagle H Beams.
I would like to have the H-Beams, also just for the ability to attach the pistons by myself (no press fit, floating wrist pins).
I heard, for the H Beams, the block has to get clearanced somewhere.
I would not advise the Eagle crankshaft! We had heard of many problems with their overall Quality and accuracy. A project came up that needed a crankshaft. We thought how bad can one really be and ordered one. Sorry to say the quality of measurements and balance were POOR! Unusable out of the box!
Good to know! So i guess, ill go with my Stock N-Crank
Good to know! So i guess, ill go with my Stock N-Crank
This can be a great budget build! Great job so far! Can you torque the rod bolts on your rods and measure the bores for roundness? If they are round great, if not they can be resized and bushed for free floating pins too. You will be fine with stock rods (I and others have raced Oldsmobiles for years with stock rods due to class rules with no problems. Also torque the main caps and measure the bores to see if they are round. If they are round you shouldn't have to align bore it. Where you are located, are there any crank grinders near you that do large engines? The crank looks as though a -.020" under will certainly clean it up. You should definetly consider getting the main bearings first installing/torquing them in the block and measuring each one for the actual dimensions. So the crank can be ground for a perfect fit with .003" to .0032" main bearing clearance. Usually the rear journal #5 can be .001" to .0015" or more LARGER than the OTHER mains. Due to the main bearing shell being .001" smaller than the rest. An Oldsmobile issue never corrected! (Not good). This causes premature #4 main failures if not addressed. Moving on to the pistons next, do you have access to a gram scale to weigh the pistons? Again like the rods you don't need light weight pistons to go fast. Your going to have more torque than you will know what to do with! If you can find a piston or have a set made within a few grams of your old ones and using the original rods you shouldn't need to balance the crank.
Last edited by drolds442w30; December 28th, 2022 at 06:12 PM.
Reason: Had to finish a sentence
This can be a great budget build! Great job so far! Can you torque the rod bolts on your rods and measure the bores for roundness? If they are round great, if not they can be resized and bushed for free floating pins too. You will be fine with stock rods (I and others have raced Oldsmobiles for years with stock rods due to class rules with no problems. Also torque the main caps and measure the bores to see if they are round. If they are round you shouldn't have to align bore it. Where you are located, are there any crank grinders near you that do large engines? The crank looks as though a -.020" under will certainly clean it up. You should definetly consider getting the main bearings first installing/torquing them in the block and measuring each one for the actual dimensions. So the crank can be ground for a perfect fit with .003" to .0032" main bearing clearance. Usually the rear journal #5 can be .001" to .0015" or more LARGER than the OTHER mains. Due to the main bearing shell being .001" smaller than the rest. An Oldsmobile issue never corrected! (Not good). This causes premature #4 main failures if not addressed. Moving on to the pistons next, do you have access to a gram scale to weigh the pistons? Again like the rods you don't need light weight pistons to go fast. Your going to have more torque than you will know what to do with! If you can find a piston or have a set made within a few grams of your old ones and using the original rods you shouldn't need to balance the crank.
Thanks for all the help!
I will try to measure the roundness of the rods and mains. Are there any tolerance specs?
I have a gram scale around, i will weight the stock rod/piston assembly. I once heard that the speed pros are quite similar in weight to the stock pistons.
i was hoping that only polishing the crank would be good enough, because i guess grinding the crank -.020 is very expensive here around. But anyways, i have to speak to a machine shop to get some prices and informations.
Interesting on Dale's take on the thrust button, not being needed with a roller cam. I wonder why everyone else recommends it? It looks like you found a nice core. Talk to an Olds builder you trust on clearance, there are many more 455 failures than 350's. It looks like Speed pistons are half the price of everything else through Summit, including their cast pistons. Good luck on your build.
]Thanks for all the help!
I will try to measure the roundness of the rods and mains. Are there any tolerance specs?
I have a gram scale around, i will weight the stock rod/piston assembly. I once heard that the speed pros are quite similar in weight to the stock pistons.
i was hoping that only polishing the crank would be good enough, because i guess grinding the crank -.020 is very expensive here around. But anyways, i have to speak to a machine shop to get some prices and informations.[/QUOTE]
December 14th, 2022, 03:43 PM
. Is the 'american' washing soda some kind of dish washing powder?
. But yeah, i can take the crank to my workplace, there its good room temperature to re-measure everything.
