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Get rid of those manifolds. They will ruin the engine.
It is going into a 89 Buick Electra Estate; I'm already ruining that engine. Haha.
But jokes aside, because it is getting swapped in place of a 307, I didn't want to risk clearance issues. It seemed like the safer bet for now. And good headers are 500 to 800, so $300 manifolds will work until funds allow for better.
And good headers are 500 to 800, so $300 manifolds will work until funds allow for better.
Sorry but I don’t understand the logic here. Your sacrificing at least 30 numbers on hp and tq and already plan on buying your exhaust twice. Save your money and just make one purchase, the correct header.
Just my opinion.
Sorry but I don’t understand the logic here. Your sacrificing at least 30 numbers on hp and tq and already plan on buying your exhaust twice. Save your money and just make one purchase, the correct header.
Just my opinion.
I had been going back and forth on it for a couple days. Was looking at Doug's or Hooker brand ceramic coated headers, but then there are always the complaints about header gasket maintenance and sticking to exhaust manifolds for just a street driver. I'll admit I took the cheap and 'ease for installation' option. I looked at it as I could have had just headers, instead I ended up with manifolds, carb, and distributor.
And I know I'm going to have to redo the whole exhaust again. Being a young kid and not knowing anything, the exhaust shop cut the rubber hangers and welded the exhaust hangers to the frame and pipes. Plus the left dual was smashed with a hammer to fit under the transmission crossmember. I've learned so many lessons about finding shops I can trust. And now I have a dual trans cross member from G Force Performance Parts that fixes that issue for the future.
Will get dynoed soon, but it'll be better than anything the 307 is producing right now.
Ok.
I guess I missed something here, I thought you were doing EFI?
Budget was the big decider, but also I was iffy about someone knowing how to install it correctly. I know removing the old engine and putting in the new one will be extremely straightforward. Asking to do sensors, computer, fuel lines, retrofitting the fuel tank with a pump is a bigger can of worms. I'd rather have that tackled by a specialist such as yourself.
Stage 1: build engine, install, drive for a couple years
Stage 2: Sequential conversion
Really excited. The 488 has been dynoed. 6 pulls and did not explode. I look forward to seeing what the wheel figures will be after drivetrain loss. Regardless, I cannot imagine how this'll feel in place of the 307 (130 HP and 255 TQ when new).
Really excited. The 488 has been dynoed. 6 pulls and did not explode. I look forward to seeing what the wheel figures will be after drivetrain loss. Regardless, I cannot imagine how this'll feel in place of the 307 (130 HP and 255 TQ when new).
Credit to Paul at Tester Motorsports.
The stroke listed on the dyno sheet is 4.50". It should be 4.25". Won't that screw with the power numbers on the sheet?
The stroke is accurate since it has an Eagle crankshaft.
Eagle makes both strokes, 4.25 and 4.500.
And yes there is a built in friction coefficient in the software so yes if it’s different those numbers would not be correct.
What cam did you go with?
Last edited by cutlassefi; May 16th, 2020 at 02:29 PM.
Eagle makes both strokes, 4.25 and 4.500.
And yes there is a built in friction coefficient in the software so yes if it’s different those numbers would not be correct.
What cam did you go with?
You are right about the Eagle having two strokes; sorry about that.
This is everything on the engine:
Olds 488
Bore 4.155
Stroke 4.500 Eagle
Rod 7.100 Eagle H Beam
Camshaft Hydraulic Roller
Morel Hydraulic Roller Lifters
Manton Push Rods
SA Gear Timing Chain Set
Clevite H Series Rod & Main Bearings
Melling HV Oil Pump
Milodon Oil Pan
Edelbrock Heads
Edelbrock Performer Intake
Harland Sharp Roller Rockers 1.6 Ratio
Comp Valve Springs
Mahle Pistons 22 CC Dish
Mahle Rings
MSD Pro Billet Distributor
Holley Street Demon
Factory Exhaust Manifolds
ARP Main Stud Kit
ARP Head Bolt Kit
Custom Valve Cover Spacers With ARP Stud Kit
"Block is decked on a true decking fixture which sets the decks at a perfect 90 degrees to the crank center line. Then bored .030 over and honed to my specs for correct hone finish. All rod and main bearing clearances are checked with a micrometer and dial bore gage. The camshaft is custom ground by Comp Cams with a 580 lift. The Camshaft is also degreed in at for street use. Custom Manton push rods with a .165 wall, 3/8 diameter were used to keep push rod deflection at a minimum. The rotating assembly was balanced in house within 2 grams. The Edelbrock heads were disassembled and given a 3 angle valve job to my specs. The intake is out of the box no work done except for milling the mating surfaces to fit the heads. The engine is dyno`d using 93 octane pump gas, timing set at 33 degrees total timing and A/F ratio is set at 12.5."
Location: Colorado Springs Colorado/Thousand Oaks Ca
Posts: 1,719
Nice build with a realistic HP peak and TQ peak. Looks like there all over your dyno data LOL. Everything looks good on the data, 479 observed HP, not sure about the vapor pressure, but make no mistake thats going to run good! Again, nice work, I noticed you spec the valve job? Care to elaborate on that. 5500 RPM HP peak, thats what I like, and with a 4.500 arm no less. Also, nice average HP above 5000 RPM, very very important.
Last edited by VORTECPRO; May 17th, 2020 at 08:19 AM.
Nice build with a realistic HP peak and TQ peak. Looks like there all over your dyno data LOL. Everything looks good on the data, 479 observed HP, not sure about the vapor pressure, but make no mistake thats going to run good! Again, nice work, I noticed you spec the valve job? Care to elaborate on that. 5500 RPM HP peak, thats what I like, and with a 4.500 arm no less. Also, nice average HP above 5000 RPM, very very important.
To me, dyno sheet is more proof that it runs well. When it is finally in the car, I'm more curious about what the wheels will be making after drivetrain loss. Still, it'll be better than anything the 307 is making. All credit goes to Paul Tester (the quote was his description, not mine). Considering what I brought him, he knocked it out of the park. And more respect to all you engine builders in general It was a chore disassembling the engine, and I learned very quickly putting it back together was a bit of a stretch by myself.
In that case you better hope your trans guy is as good as Paul Tester. What gear is in the wagon now?
Haha. The transmission is an uprated 2004r from CKPerformance; it should handle the power nicely since it was designed for drag racing Grand Nationals. The rear end is 30 spline and changed from 2.93 to 3.42 with a Trac Rite Gear Limited Slip Diff.
Nice to see your long term build come together. Was there any issues with the Street Demon on the Dyno? A member here and a few others have had secondaries run lean. Otherwise nearly everyone loves them. Nice numbers, it won't just haul the kids, it will haul ***.
Nice to see your long term build come together. Was there any issues with the Street Demon on the Dyno? A member here and a few others have had secondaries run lean. Otherwise nearly everyone loves them. Nice numbers, it won't just haul the kids, it will haul ***.
Did the first test drive yesterday. It is amazing how different she behaves with that much power. I was grinning like an idiot for about 10 minutes... then I think I grenaded the transmission...
That is a real bummer. But we've all been there....
My Extreme Automatics 200-4r trans died (band failure) and I decided to do the rebuild myself. Still waiting to see if it was successful.
There's a group on Facebook - 200-4r Nerds - that's excellent.
Switching to a billet input is pretty straightforward, and if the was minimal carnage then that may be all you need (and re-checking front endplay). Note that CK's input shaft and billet overdrive carrier use non-standard splines and only work with each other. Better to get a billet input from Art Carr (California Performance Transmission) and a billet carrier from, well, wherever you can. Lonnie does quick turn-arounds, but his first one he sent to me had TH325 planets in it (!!!!!). I went ahead and rebuilt the one he eventually sent because he re-used an old bearing and the needles were a bit crusty.
Basically can't trust jack **** - read up, check and recheck on your own.
The easy button would be sending the unit to Janis or Husek to repair. I'm deeply grateful for what CK has done for this transmission and his book, but his shop is just way too backed up and communication is too difficult. He might give you the run around on any warranty or helping out with the repair.
I'm pretty surprised the input shaft broke. It does sound like it based on what happened, but seems odd assuming the trans did downshift and the lockup released (if it was engaged). My 403 put out ~450ftlb and I romped on it a lot for the two years before the band burned up. No wear on any hard parts, just the band, direct and forward clutches.
I have a Extreme Automatics 200-4r trans. .Built three years ago. What stage build was it? Putting an animal motor behind my Old's it in a few months. My is a stage 2. Would like to not find the weakest link. Before going down the road.
Would you be willing to provide more info on this? What CK build did you have? Was it the CK billet input shaft? What RPM and gear were you in when it let go? What converter, (3.42 posi rear?), tires?
I have a Extreme Automatics 200-4r trans. .Built three years ago. What stage build was it? Putting an animal motor behind my Old's it in a few months. My is a stage 2. Would like to not find the weakest link. Before going down the road.
mine was a stage 2. I talked to a couple of builders that didn't like Lonnie's servo design with the double ring seals. I think its interesting that Lonnie isn't listing his servo on his site anymore - now he advertises the sonnax servo. If the servo doesn't have enough holding pressure then the band slips and things go bad fast. I wasn't thrilled with the direct clutch setup so I got one of Husek's pressure plates and did a 6 clutch stack.
so my failure wasn't stage 2 vs stage 3 based. I went ahead and added billet input shaft, overdrive carrier and overdrive ring since my new engine build is over 500ftlbs.
I have a Extreme Automatics 200-4r trans. .Built three years ago. What stage build was it? Putting an animal motor behind my Old's it in a few months. My is a stage 2. Would like to not find the weakest link. Before going down the road.
Originally Posted by oddball
That is a real bummer. But we've all been there....
My Extreme Automatics 200-4r trans died (band failure) and I decided to do the rebuild myself. Still waiting to see if it was successful.
Funny enough, I am getting parts from Extreme Automatics to fix it. CK doesn't have an input shaft, nor does the transmission shop, so I am certain I'll be in good hands; Extreme Automatics looks like they have severely hardened parts for the 2004r.
Originally Posted by adis
Would you be willing to provide more info on this? What CK build did you have? Was it the CK billet input shaft? What RPM and gear were you in when it let go? What converter, (3.42 posi rear?), tires?
It was an older CK performance transmission. The Jasper 2004r (so it already had another transmission before I got it) I had swapped out in 2013. For those years it lived behind the stock 307 with a 3.42 rear end and TracRite helical diff. The gearbox limit was 500 HP but I always assumed my engine build would be 400HP, so there would be plenty of room. With 515 HP and 556 TQ attached nine years later, it was a bit beyond what that transmission could handle. TQ converter was a standard 1650 but it is getting upgraded to 2000, and the lockup is getting installed for 4th gear only since there is no more computer. Tires are 235 70 r15. When I visit the shop I hope to be taking the snapped shaft home as a memento.
Second test drive with the Olds 455 swapped wagon a week or two ago. Good news, bad news, worst news.
Good news: 2004r. The rebuilt transmission ran well the entire drive home. Still needs the lockup torque converter solenoid installed for fourth gear, but handled 1/4, 1/3, and 1/2 throttle with ease. Didn't mash it or let it downshift.
Bad News: Cooling. On the highway, it stayed at 150 all day long as long as I was above 25mph. Slow 25 mph traffic was 180. Standstill or red lights, it creeped up to 210 and a little beyond so, despite the aluminum radiator, shroud, and clutch fan from the 307, I might need an auxiliary fan for standstill/idling. At very least, the fan clutch, coolant system, thermostat will be checked out. Olds facebook group said the 455 tend to run hot, but I am still going to take precautions.
Worst news: Pulled up to my mechanic. Turned off engine. For the next 60 seconds the engine struggled to try to stay running, shot two shotgun blasts out the tailpipes, and expunged a gust of steam out through the air filter. He thinks the engine is suffering from pre-ignition when turned off. Hopefully the engine isn't toast after 60 miles. I have much more respect for the computer controlled carb on the 307, and EFI in general. Also learned from the Olds facebook group if it happens again, turn it off in Drive while holding brake, then put in Park.
"Turned off engine. For the next 60 seconds the engine struggled to try to stay running, shot two shotgun blasts out the tailpipes, and expunged a gust of steam out through the air filter."
If I understand your description this was known as engine run on or dieseling.
The most common cause is engine idle speed set too high. Be sure to use the factory spec usually 600-650 RPM IN DRIVE. That is assuming you have a stock engine. You may have to experiment with idle speed if you are using a high performance camshaft.
Another cause of engine run on is hot spots in the combustion chamber. This can be caused by carbon build up. To remove excess carbon I used to use GM Top Engine cleaner with excellent results.
High engine temperatures can also cause run on. Correct any cooling system issues that may exist.
Another but less likely cause maybe a spark plug of a higher heat range than specification.
Please keep us posted of you progress.
Last edited by Dynoking; March 15th, 2022 at 06:49 AM.
First, get a seven blade fan to replace the 5 blade fan and get a new clutch for it. What are the specs on your aluminum rad? Get a high flow 160 or 180 thermostat as well, avoid the Mr Gasket version, a few of us have had issues with them. Yeah, I experienced what you are with my hot running 403, especially towing my boat.
Have you made any upgrades/changes to the alternator and/or ignition? It's quite common to need a diode on the alternator excite wire to prevent run-on. There's not enough power for the ignition system to work well - just enough to stumble for a bit. Also try disconnecting the alternator, fire up engine, turn off. If it turns off right away then that's another clue.
The clutch fan is the best setup - it pulls far more air than any electric fan. As said, get the metal fan and clutch from an earlier car. Make sure the depth into the shroud is correct - the fan should be slightly poking out towards the engine. If the fan is all the way into the shroud - especially past the lip of the shroud - then it's too far in and won't work well. Depth can be a problem due to the various Olds water pump lengths.
Little update:
On a 86 degree day with stop start in NY, 'Firefly' hovered at 195. The Derale 17118 six blade fan and Hayden 2747 clutch are doing wonders keeping this beast cool. Even starting up at 210, it would come down albeit slowly. In the drive to the Long Island Oldsmobile show, 50 to 70 degrees with consistent driving put me at 150-160. All the standstill parkway traffic never pushed the gauge past 180 degrees.
However, now I need to cool myself. Even if its with a longer bolt and washers, I need the 307 A/C compressor to align with the pulley on the 488 so it can turn again. Also tempted to get a dual cold air snorkel so some cooler air is feed in. Thinking of a ram air box since I need to use the street demon baseplate.
Little update:
...snip... In the drive to the Long Island Oldsmobile show, 50 to 70 degrees with consistent driving put me at 150-160. ...snip...
I've been following your build and really enjoying. I was at the show too and am sorry I missed getting a chance to look at your car and chat... Must be a blast to drive.
I am continually performing R&D with this swap. Friday I broke down twice, second time on a bridge. Both ways exactly the same. 90 degree day. I am driving at 65-70, I feel like if I try to give it more than 1/4 throttle it starts acting like there's no fuel so I back off pedal and reapply 1/8. It slowly goes lower until the car loses speed then entire engine cuts off. I pull over to the side. I try to start and it just cranks. Battery good. Alternator is getting power. I disconnect fuel line to the carb, fuel comes out when cranking.
The first time I walked a mile to an auto store thinking it was an ignition coil. By the time I got back, I decided to try it one more time for the hell of it and it started right up with belt squeal which faded. Second time, I waited 15 minutes on hold with AAA then it fired up squealing and I got it moving to a parking lot, let it 'rest, then took the street the rest of the way home.
I initially thought the pump was bad but then fuel shouldn't have come out of the line. If spark or ignition was bad, why does it work later after it seemingly cools or not on the prior 40-60 minute drive. The MSD 'ready to run' distributor should be designed to deal with the heat so close to the engine.
It'll be inspected Wednesday but my guess is the fuel is boiling in the carburetor and its a form of vaporlock. Symptoms match. I didn't want to flood the carb so I never gave it heavy pedals, but if I applied some while cranking it felt like it got it going. Read now that depressing the pedal first then cranking clears it, which further ties the diagnosis. And this occurs after 40 to 60 minutes of driving on parkways / standstill traffic.
The temp gauge doesn't pass 195 but engine is still generating heat; I still shut the car down in drive. I've read a thermo gasket under the carb and a fuel filter with gas vent can solve the issues.
Been interesting dealing with issues that predate many 80s tech (dieseling/vaporlock).That being said, seriously considering the move to EFI earlier than I thought.
February 25th, 2020, 12:48 PM
