ToroToro

In another post titled guide me, I explained that I had recently picked up a "barn find" 69 toro that had been sitting for 37 years. The owner did a lot of the prep work to get it ready to drive and I picked it up in Dallas with intention of driving to Austin. After 150 miles of sweet running I started hearing a light knocking sound (I'm thinking lifter) and after a while I stopped for gas and the oil pressure light started flickering on and off. You guessed it. I spun a rod. After getting lots of great advice from a lot of smart people, I decided to spend the money and do a complete rebuild, staying stock. Since this was a numbers matching car with a very rare option set I thought why not even through it hurt the bank. Today the engine removal was complete and guess what? Not a numbers matching car and it appears that the engine is already a rebuilt one. I'm now second guessing everything about the car in general and the drive train in particular. The car is still worth investing in for a number of other reasons, but now it is looking more like a fun semi-daily driver rather than a show candidate so I have more decisions to make. If the heads check out tomorrow as true Toro 455s, then I can continue on the path of rebuild. The shop also thinks I might want to consider a crate short block if the heads are good, long block if not and save some money on the manual rebuild. Questions: what would you do? If crate, where would I get one? Stay stock or kick it up a notch on rebuild? If I kick it up, what and also where again can I find it?

Very sorry for the long note, but I'm still PISSED and babbling a bit.

Mitch (the Sucker)

Also, where can I find a Toro oil pan and dip stick tube and stick (Yes, they are F-ed up too)

cutlassefi

To my knowledge a "crate" Olds motor doesn't exist for less that about 9K for a turnkey and probably 4k or so for a short block.

Check the heads and go from there. Where are you located? There are a bunch of guys here who will point you in the right direction.

ToroToro

I am located in Austin TX.

Mitch

Kyle's 77 Cutlass

well that is a kick in the pants

2blu442

Hi Mitch
Unless you've got a damaged block I'd just rebuild the one you have. I'm sure several members here would have whatever parts you need such as a crank or a good used rod or a head if you needed to replace any of them. I'm thinking a good machine shop would do the work for you for a basic stock rebuild plus parts for $2500-3000 not counting assembly. If you don't feel comfortable assembling it then shop around to see if you can find someone who would do the work for you. I know there's several members here in Texas. One of them may be able to point you towards a good shop. I'd suggest you create a thread asking for recommendations in your part of the state. Then create a parts wanted post for the oil pan, dip stick and tube.
Hope your able to revive your Toro! John

Texas Jim

If the shop that you went to didn't know that there are no Olds 455 crate motors available, then maybe you should go to another shop that's familiar w/ Olds engines. In the short time I've messed w/ Olds engines, I've learned that f/ a really good rebuild, and that is what you want, you need to go to a shop that KNOWS Olds, and not just "a good shop."

Aceshigh

$1600-$1800 for 455 long blocks here (+Shipping + Core)
http://remanufactured.com/Oldsmobile_engines.htm
I'd just follow Dr Olds advice on the oil restrictors and other details.

Sorry to see that you were taken for your money with false claims of #'s matching.
This is why I don't bother playing that game. Too many scammers because of
too many people wanting #'s matching. Even Mecum and Barrett Jackson are guilty of it.

They do NOTHING to stop the false claims, except list disclaimers that they're not liable.

Bluevista

This may be a stupid question, but why didn't you check the numbers before you bought it?

I had my 350 rebuilt at a production shop, stock rebuild for 1200 bucks out the door and they even picked it up and delivered it, been running like a champ for four years.
Don't be falling into the trap of thinking only way you can get a good stock type engine rebuild is to overpay for it.


http://www.budgetenginerebuilders.com/index.html

firefrost gold

well if he was to get one from say btr would it or would it not show up in a crate.
I would go with atleast a roller cam and hard seats in heads and some port work
to help wake it up a good shop will do that work for not a hole lot more than a straight rebuild jmt.

joe_padavano

"Crate engine" is right up there with "numbers matching" as one of the most mis-used terms in the hobby. A crate engine originally was a brand new motor (using all brand new parts, including castings) that came in a crate from the factory (GM, Ford, etc). Anything else is just a rebuilt engine (and "remanufactured" is just a $100 way of saying "rebuilt"). Yes, hand-built race motors from companies like BTR are in a different class than those from Jasper, but they are still all rebuilt from old castings.

Today, any rebuilt engine is called a "crate engine". In reality, the only true crate motors you can get today are from Chevy, Ford, and Chrysler (and maybe an Northstar). Olds did sell brand new crate motors in the day, and occasionally one pops up on e-pay for a gazillion dollars, but you are unlikely to find one.

ToroToro

Thanks for all of the replies to my posting. In order: I used the word crate when I used have used turnkey to describe what I was going for as an alternative to rebuilding locally. My mechanic was clear that there are no true crate Olds 455s made any more. I will also post my request for an oil pan and dip tube on the parts needed section. I only put in my posting because I assumed that more "motor-men" would be it and be more likely to know or have it.

Here is where I am at after getting all the feedback. Today, I am going to check the block casting and like at the heads if they have been pulled. If the block casting is right one and the heads are the correct TOronado 455 ones, I will proceed with a local rebuild. (assuming the price is correct. they are ball parking 6K for pulling the engine, rebuild with full bore if needed, new pistons and rods, head job, re-assemble and re-install.) I will price out roller parts and consider a slightly more aggressive cam, but I have been receiving very mixed opinions on these. Some say go for it and others say it is a rip off for the money.

I only hope that the heads are correct....

Mitch

rocketraider

How do you know for sure the current engine is not original to the car? You have checked the VIN derivative on the LF side of the block? 39MXXXXXX

Time was I'd have told you not to waste your time on a roller cam for a street car, but if you can find one with a reasonable profile, it will help you immensely as far as what oils you can use. You definitely do not want a profile that will require much over stock stall converter in a Toronado.

Rickman48

After seeing the picture of the chopped and sectioned '69 Cutass that's currenty sitting in a friends garage, I did a little investigating of remanufactured.com!
Since the picture was taken in Lockport, Il., where the car was built, and I worked for 'remanufactured.com' for a couple weeks, in the same town, on Archer Avenue, I kinda put 2+2 together!
When I realized what he was doing to people, I left in a hurry!
To him, remanufactured means fixing what's wrong, PERIOD!
Spun rod bearing = grind ONE journal, re-use the rest, if not bad, check one ring, re-use if not bad, check heads - no valve job if it passed leakdown, use the cheapest gasket kit available, re-assemble, paint, crate and ship!

He just called me back, says he's in Texas, but yet people in Illinois have to pay tax!?!?! And I recognized his voice - TOTAL RIP-OFF!!!
Don't even think about it!!!
Many complaints on the internet!

ToroToro

I looked on the drivers side front of the motor right under the head (which had the letter C printed on it) on the flat grind and the numbers that I was able to see were like this L9SB over 70112. The L9SB was very difficult to read so it might have been L98B or L9S8, but I am almost sure that it is L9SB. Does this make sense for a VIN match on block? The VIN is 394879M607644 I checked the casting number on the front of the block and it was 396021 F which I believe is correct for a 455 69.

Mitch

Dave Siltman

I'm not one to criticize, but how much does "numbers matching"affect the price of a '69 Toronado? Even a W34 GT isn't priced in the stratosphere so I don't see why a different number on the engine makes that much of a difference as long as it correct (455) and not some old junk yard 400. Did you see if it is a factory warranty replacement? Many cars of that era had their engines replaced under warranty rather than rebuilding the original. It's still that way---it is more cost effective, less down time, etc. I think a competent shop should be able to do a comprehensive rebuild in the $3000-4000 range and provide you with a good warranty.

ToroToro

My mechanic said that he would consider adding a little more cam to the engine to give it a little more kick, but still good from driving. Any recommendations?

cutlassefi

Will you be using the stock intake and exhaust manifolds?

Aceshigh

I was wondering that EXACT samething.

If it's not an ultra rare edition that in high demand that brings in big $$$$ being 100% #'s matching....
Why bother forking out the extra $$$$ to make it #'s matching ??

IF there's no ROI (Return on Investment) for what you invest in that area, it's a moot point.
Just put an engine in there to drive it and enjoy it.

I think parts vendors love the people who get caught up in the #'s matching game.
(Cynical example)
They can sell you a $1000 widget that's #'s matching for your $3,000 valued car.
OR Barrett Jackson will sell you a "#'s matching" with a disclaimer of no liability
so they can rake in the $$$ unless you realize it's a clone and not authentic.

Caveat Emptor

ToroToro

Right now I had planned to use the stock intake because I thought that it was a special low rise that was the only one that would fit under the hood, but I did plan to have a custom dual exhaust made (unless you have a better suggestion) Any suggestion on either?

cutlassefi

Dual exhaust is always good and I think you have to use that intake but you better ask someone here that knows for sure.
I'm guessing you'll be using the stock type valvetrain?
Something like 215-220 or so on the intake duration would be good. But have it ground on a 108 centerline, I know the Toro is a heavy car. You need a slower cam, not slow, just slower than a Comp Xtreme or Lunati VooDoo and something with decent exhaust duration as well, that'll make more torque, again it's a heavy car.

rocketraider

To a hardcore Toronado guy, it makes a lot of difference for this simple reason: a LOT of low-mile Toronados (and Ninety Eights for that matter) were raped for their 455s to stick in somebody's 6 or 350 Cutlass, then getting another usually trashed engine stuffed in it to sell the car.

TT, those numbers aren't making any sense unless it was a jobber rebuild engine. GM dealer instructions were to transfer the car's original VIN derivative to the service engine.

You'll have to keep the low-riser Toro intake for hood clearance and fab your dual exhaust with the existing exhaust manifolds. Non-W 68-70 Toronados came with single outlet exhaust, but it was the typical Toronado crossover dual system all the way to the transverse muffler, which had dual in/single out connections. The W-cars had dual in/dual out muffler.

A true full dual system will require some fabbing and some small diameter mufflers. I considered putting chambered pipes combined with the factory resonators on my 69 W, but thought it may have ended up louder than I wanted. After duplicating my 64 Starfire's chambered pipe/resonator system, I think it would probably have sounded just about right.

sx455raidercelticfan

cutlassefi is the man when it comes 2 cams!! i just ordered 1 threw him hes a good guy! if you go roller talk 2 him!!

im rebuilding my original and im building a stroker right now!! you should be able 2 build a nice strong roller motor for 4000-5000 easy, thats with new pistons/rods, edelbrock intake/rebuilt carb, roller cam/lifter/rockers, and headers/exhaust thats if your pulling installn it and doing the foot work, its going 2 cost almost double if you have some1 else pull it, do the foot work and buy all the parts!! that is not the way 2 go!! if you dont wrench every1 has a friend/cousin/uncle/brother that works on cars buy some beer, bbq a tri tip and have him help you do the work youll save alot of money doing most of the work yourself even if you have some1 else assemble it its cheaper if you do most of the work

goodluck

ToroToro

I am going forward on a roller rebuild with a comp cams full roller kit, transmission overhaul while I have it out and a full overhaul of the heating and cooling system. Any advice on where to get new heating and cooling parts. I've heard bad things about Modello in regards to engine parts, but they claim to have prefect fit new radiator, heater core, evaporator, dryer and hoses. Thoughts? Somebody is going to get one nice Toro if I ever let it go.

Mitch