MDchanic

Not so much the honesty - heck, ANYONE can be a crook - but the style.

First of all, a retired doctor should be pushing 70 (few doctors retire early), and a man of that generation usually writes in complete sentences and paragraphs.

Second, doctors tend to be very specific. He mentions a number of details, but seems to repeat the same ones in different notes without much elaboration. It would be expected that if he had spoken with this assembly line guy, he would have asked lots of very specific questions, and be able to give specific answers.

Third, he hasn't provided the best proof possible - good quality images of the P-O-P and FB plate. Older doctors tend to be very straightforward, non-nonsense, no beating around the bush kind of guys. He'd either send it or say, "No, I don't trust you with that information!" He wouldn't just-not-get-around-to-it.

- Eric

Keener

Based on my frame number, located to the right of the rear exhaust hanger on the driver side frame, I think the vert frame number would be xxxx595. I say this because the '65 442 coupes and verts have the same last 3 numbers. If you go look at the car be careful when looking at the upper frame control arm mounts. See the photos I posted above. It is easy to think there are four holes in the frame when there are actually three. The frame date, stamped above the frame number, should be from April thru late summer months....anything before that is not a 442. have you guys seen the Ted Stevens '64 442 vert? http://baileysclassicautos.com/1964_442.htm
My guess is this is where the guy is getting the info about the "X" on the protect-o-plate meaning it is a 442. To be honest I am not entirely sure this is true. I have a Fremont built 64 442 and the Protect-o-Plate is stamped with a "W". Othalll (otherwise known as Randy on this forum) has a "V" on his protect-o-plate which is a Lansing car. Well maybe the last 4 digits of the alphabet were used to designate these cars. Take a look at the Ted Stevens car...it also does not appear to have holes puched in the inner trunk lid for the 442 emblem.

coltsneckbob

Sorry. Let me state quite unequivocally you are all wrong. The car is worth what a buyer will pay. If the seller thinks there is a buyer for $25K or more so be it. Your saying it is not worth $25K is well quite frankly worth nothing. You won't pay that, but it is the sellers right to ask anything. I frankly don't understand this obsession with calling the seller a "bs'er" or claiming him to be a fraud when as far as I can tell not one of you has met him or actually seen the car. I hate to say it but this is the equivalent of an e-lench mob.

dmcianfa

True. Ted Stevens also states that the 2L-G on his cowl tag refers as the "L" meaning convertible and the "G" meaning bucket seats, which I don't necessarily agree with either. I am under the impression this refers to "2" =second column under acc., L=manual transmission/stickshift kit, G=console. It would be ok to have a 2L without console I suppose. I cannot attest to the meanings of the letters on the POP 100%, just what I've seen on others and havn't seen on non 442's.

As far as the car's price being "fair". Sorry coltsneckbob, I'm going to have to highly disagree with you. If you look at the main resource of values of classic vehicles for the market and their condition thereof , "Old Cars Weekly report" for one, it is nowhere even close to what it should be even as a #1 condition car. Sure, he might get upper 20's for it, but if he does a fool and his money will soon part on the other end and I don't like it when people are taken advantage of, so I'll stand up for the innocent any day of the week.

geowindow6768

Whatever it is, it is a gorgeous car. The yellow and black look great. If I brought it to a car gathering there might be one or two people who would know what it is or isn't. Driving it down the road would get a lot of thumbs up. If I had the money to throw around...

Diego

So do you prefer to throw more money around for a car that's legit, or more money for a car that's not legit?

MDchanic

Provided that the bondo doesn't start to bubble, etc., etc.

- Eric

TK-65

That page has nothing to do with Ted Stevens, and frankly I wish it would disappear from the web. The green car is very nice, the info is very wrong.

I have nothing against the ebay car or the owner. Only problem I have is the info being presented. Its not correct and that leads to people believing that an auto 64 442 may have been made because Wally Soandso was "there" and remembers it 50 years later.

Bad info leads people getting burned. And not offering up the window sticker tells me the owner knows more than he is saying.

oldcutlass

Exactly!!!! I agree, all those guides that everyone quotes from do not, will not, ever, ever, purchase cars. That car is worth everybit of what he is asking, to someone who falls in love with it. Try and duplicate one for that price! He is only presenting the information and documentation that he has. It's up to the future owner to do his own research!! Now lets just say for sh_ ts n grins, his documentation proves correct, hmmmmm now whats the car worth????

joe_padavano

Which has been my point all along. I really could not care less if a buyer chooses to pay $25K or $125K for this car, but that buyer should make an informed decision about the authenticity of the car and resulting value. If the buyer knows about all the questions raised here and still chooses to pay that much, it's none of my business.

The problem comes when buyers make a decision based solely on the seller's claims, pay a premium for what they think is a valuable car, then find out later that the car is a cobbled-together clone. THAT is what sours people on the hobby. Barrett Jackson and the like have made much money doing this (with appropriate weasel words in the listing, cleared by their lawyers) and there are many, many documented cases of buyers later finding out that the claims were pure BS.

Once again, my whole point is to educate a potential buyer and point out questionable claims by sellers. If the seller makes a flat-out false statement, I'll point that out very loudly. Such false statements hurt the hobby and help no one except the seller.

Oldsmaniac

Everyone who responded voiced an opinion only and I respect yours. No lynch mob. Some of us have been wrenching on Oldsmobiles for a very long while and know these cars pretty well and just dont welcome sellers skirting truth or advertising something that perhaps they believe to be truth but in reality is not. Picking a car apart is a way of evaluating and in our minds determining a sense of value with 100% correct and legit being the standard. Some may shell out big bucks for a polished turd but not those who have built/restored cars from a very poor state. The car obviously has things that are not correct and how much bondo or perhaps frame rot was/is there? That would be an educated buyer's problem. This site is about education. Let all voice opinions but should we say someone is wrong or incorrect for theirs. Just my opinion.

coltsneckbob

I never said the price was fair (at least that I know of). Do you think Armani asking $5,000 for a suit is fair? Prada asking $10,000 for a handbag? Or $15 for a dry martini in Manhattan is fair? It really doesn't matter what the "books" say - the seller can whatever he thinks it will sell at. Now, if you want to argue he over priced in the market - well OK that is your opinion and you're probably correct. But, I just don't see why we need to accuse the person of being fraudster or to mock the ad so harshly. That's all I am saying. Hey look he might actually get a sale and set a new price point.....it does happen!!!!

coltsneckbob

Right - I think we are on same page....and thanks for spelling lynch correctly!! I knew it didn't look right, but I couldn't recall how to spell it !!!!

Oldsmaniac

Yeah I got lucky on the spelling I guess....something I have trouble with at times!

trackz man

My 64 had a blue engine color on the 330

joe_padavano

As expected, Reserve Not Met...

oldcutlass

It did get up to $25600!!!!

joe_padavano

So what? Until cash changes hands, that number is meaningless and is NOT a measure of value in any way, shape, or form. For all we know, some shill was bidding.

dmcianfa

100% agreed

oldcutlass

No I disagree, so far there's a market for it @ $26500, the seller thinks its worth more. In order to sell a car both the buyer and the seller have to agree. It's a buyers market!

joe_padavano

Right, because you KNOW for a fact that the $26500 bid was NOT put there by the seller or his shill who KNEW that it was still under the reserve price...

Sorry, but come on over to the real world. Even if someone SAYS they'll pay that much, until the cash changes hands the number is meaningless. Watch completed auctions on ebay. I've seen too many cars that "sold" at high dollar, only to be relisted by the same seller two weeks later.

GreekDog

thats whay happened to me actually. The car I was bidding on was "sold" to some other guy who outbid me. I ended up buying the car a week later for 3k LESS than what he "sold" it for previously.

I will never buy a car off of ebay again. Too many swindlers and snake oil salesmen.

Diego

eBay is only a reflection of the real world. The only difference is the veil of anonymity assists the dishonest in being a step ahead.

GTI_Guru

I did get fortunate and bought a REAL rare car off Ebay as a basket-case builder. Not that it would interest too many of you guys, but it was a 1997 VW GTI Driver's edition in the Jazz Blue paint. One of only 200, and the vin is legit. I believe there's probably less than 50 of them still around, maybe fewer. I've only seen about 1/2 dozen for sale ever, and never another in person, although a buddy spotted one at an east coast meet. Rare cars are out there for sure, but being educated as to what exactly you are looking at is a huge step in the right direction so you can make proper choices.

I'm glad to see this forum has people willing to help out with questions and information, instead of just ripping things and people apart without giving reasons why.

I guess that for the most part, since the Olds community is more or less an "older" crowd these days, that the majority here have learned to be more mature about these things. :-)

-Jeff

joe_padavano

Ebay is fine so long as you do your homework and be sure you know what you're getting. My 62 was an ebay car and the seller did an excellent job of describing and documenting the car before I bought it, sight unseen. No complaints at all. Of course, my 62 is not exactly a high dollar, mainstream car that entices people to lie, either.

trackz man

Joe- If you are looking for any parts/pieces/unibody/rear suspension/etc, etc... for your 62, Dalton has any and mostly all 541 678-0606

He also purchased his 62's off of e-bay and craigs list and a drive-by in Northern California. So, I agree. As long as you do your homework you can find the right deal. Recently there was a 65 442 that went for $1750 in Nebraska. I would say that is a good project car for the money...

oldcutlass

Joe,
I'm in the real world just not yours, I'm a glass half full kind of guy and tend to give folks the benefit of the doubt. So I can also put this back to you, do you know for a fact that the other bid was bogus, no you don't.

Yeah he might of misrepresented the car as far as you are concerned but it might of been based on the info he knew as correct. I'm 52 years old and do not claim to know everything. And, with all do respect, I do value your oppinion. However, I'm in the car business and know what sets the market value for a car. That car is worth what someone will pay for it. All I know is there was 1 documented bid at $26500, that technically is the market value.

MDchanic

Sorry, but Joe's right on this one.

Look at it this way: If this were a "real-world" auction, say B-J, or even the local "Toyotas for $100" auction, a high bid with no sale (reserve not met, or buyer flaked out, or whatever) would NOT establish value.
Only completed sales at auction establish value.
High no-sale bids may help guide future auctions and bidders, but they are not considered by appraisers, for all the reasons Joe mentioned.
You can't count an offer to buy something with the same weight as an actual sale. It's really not the same thing, because you can't really know if the money would have changed hands until it actually does.

- Eric

therobski

Good morning, I just took these pictures of the 64 breather that came off the 64 post car.

oldcutlass

LOL- Ok, we can use B-J, the reason that a car does not sell below reserve is that the market (buyers) price is set lower than what the seller is willing to accept.

Just a different view Joe. Not being confrontational.

joe_padavano

What I said was that the bid was MEANINGLESS unless cash changes hands. This is no different than paper gains on real estate. They are meaningless unless the property is sold.

[/QUOTE] However, I'm in the car business and know what sets the market value for a car. That car is worth what someone will pay for it. All I know is there was 1 documented bid at $26500, that technically is the market value.[/QUOTE]

And using your own words, NO ONE paid anything for it, so how does that set market value?

1969w3155

or what the public is willing to pay.

oldcutlass

I used the term will/ and willing not the word did!!!! Joe, lets just agree to disagree!

aliensatemybuick

So now I now that if I want to donate a car to charity, all I have to do is offer it in an auction with an absurd reserve and then use the highest bid to set the value.

All kidding aside, I would be a bit more willing to accept a high bid that did not meet reserve in an in-person auction as being real than an Ebay auction, where people bid on stuff they don't really want or can't even afford all the time because there's little downside to "accidentally" winning.

dmcianfa

I'm afraid Joe's got you on this one. I would bet my next paycheck that the bid placed was by the owner or another under his supervision to do so. It happens on 95% of the auctions on ebay and more I'm afraid when it comes to vehicles. NO MONETARY FUNDS EXCHANGED PERSONS, THEREFORE THE CAR IS STILL NOT WORTH WHAT SOME SHAM BID ON IT WAS IN A VIRTUAL ATMOSPHERE.

If you went and looked at a car at an auction and the bidding got up to a point where it went no further, but the reserve still wasn't met do you think that car is automatically worth what the last bid was? The answer is a resounding NO? Reality is that in auction settings there is often "placers" specifically put into the mix to run up the bidding, often in cahoots with the owner/seller of the item. Especially on ebay. Wake up, it's the 21'st century man.

Market value is the price at which an asset trades in a competitive auction setting. Market value is a concept distinct from market price, which is “the price at which one can transact”, while market value is “the true underlying value” according to theoretical standards. The concept is most commonly invoked in inefficient markets or disequilibrium situations where prevailing market prices are not reflective of true underlying market value. For market price to equal market value, the market must be informationally efficient and rational expectations must prevail. Market value is also distinct from fair value in that fair value depends on the parties involved, while market value does not. For example, IVS currently notes fair value "requires the assessment of the price that is fair between two specific parties taking into account the respective advantages or disadvantages that each will gain from the transaction. Although market value may meet these criteria, this is not necessarily always the case. Fair value is frequently used when undertaking due diligence in transactions, where particular synergies between the two parties may mean that the price that is fair between them is higher than the price that might be obtainable in the wider market. In other words "special value" may be generated. market value requires this element of "special value" to be disregarded, but it forms part of the assessment of fair value.

In economics, Market price is the economic price for which a good or service is offered in the marketplace. It is of interest mainly in the study of microeconomics. Market value and market price are equal only under conditions of market efficiency, equilibrium, and rational expectations. Keyword being rational expectations here. In classic economics, market pricing is primarily determined by the interaction of supply and demand. Price is interrelated with both of these measures of value. The relationship between price and supply is generally negative, meaning that the higher the price climbs, the lower amount of the supply is demanded. Conversely, the lower the price, the greater the supply is demanded. Market price is just one of the number of ways to establish the monetary value of a good or a transaction. Shifts due to changing consumer preferences will inherently influence market price. Your confusing market price with market value here. In your own words, "It's a buyers market!", which contradicts what you are trying to validate. I'm not sure your understanding how this works exactly.

Summerof84

I guess I have problem bidding on a car with a generic radiator hose and no overflow hose hooked up. I can not even conceive of buying even a $10k car with such a lack of attention to basics. Why? This usually points to shoddy bodywork, poor engine rebuilds and all kinds of other shortcuts being taken.
The rest of the discussion puts the car squarely into the clone category.

MDchanic

Thank you, Dom.

You laid out clearly what a number of us thought but didn't have the words to properly express.

- Eric

69HO43

As far as I know, '65 was the first use of an automatic in a production 442. I've never seen one documented '64 442 with anything other than a 4-speed.

And as an FYI, W29 code was first used for the 442 designator in 1965, according to TK-65's account from a build sheet. Called it a "perf option".

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums/229887-post8.html



I have an old build sheet from a 69 442 that does indeed call out the VIN as a 344 car, has a 336 fisher tag (I think all 69 442s had a Cutlass body tag) and in the options installed on the bottom of the sheet, it does indeed show the W29 442 package as an "option". But we all know 68-71 442s were marketed as their own model.

I'll have to see if I can drag that thing up somewhere.

Regardless, the 64 "442" on ebay is a fake.

Aceshigh

I don't know this person, or if the car is legit, but I'll answer this question with my .02


Because there is a market for buyers that want all original and Mecum and Barrett Jackson
have capitalized on this market. They've shown the kind of $$$ you can rake in from clones,
lies, and deceit. Now everyone and their mother is scrambling to swap VIN's, rebuild cars,
change paperwork, etc etc etc.

Why be honest when there's tons of fools dumping insane amounts of $$$$ on a classic ??
Big $$$ always attracts hustlers looking for their next big score. Just the way the world is.
It's business.

firefrost gold

Bam she is back on ebay and is at 30,000 with reserve met .