Ces

Pulling out of a parking space very slowly,
And my front passenger wheel starts to rub badly.
I get out to look and I see a tear in my frame where my lower suspension connects to the chassis. I'll post a picture.

image_zpsd9af60c6.jpg
Question is, has anyone ever heard of, or seen such a thing?
I have not.

Please let me know.
This has me very concerned, to say the least.

I've only had this car for a few short months.
It came from Lansing and I suspect it has much more rust than a California car would.
I've only had cars like this one that are from the Fremont, Ca. factory.
And stayed in California their whole life.

This happened tonight on my 72 cutlass supreme convertible.

Thanks

11971four4two

bosh

Ces

Thanks, kook.
Super helpful.
It's 2am and AAA refused to tow me, after waiting an hour for them to show up.
Now, I'm here in a parking lot, hoping Hagerty will get me home.

Grumbler

I had sort of the same thing happen. one of the rear axle control arms let go on my 75 Delta 98 like that at the mount and the tire moved forward into the wheel well and rubbed. Rusted out good. Believe it or not, I tied the axle back roughly in place with rope and limped it home slowly with a buddy following me, then condemned the body and pulled the 455, probably not what you wanted to hear. That looks repairable though, doesn't seem to be rusted bad, very strange.
Good luck

lemoldsnut

Was it wrecked and never correctly fixed? Rust is also a huge issue on cars from east of the rockies.

Curious why would AAA not tow it?

11971four4two

that sucks
it takes more to tear a frame
than what you state happened

sorry so gruff am b4 breakfast

Ces

Hagerty and American Tow made it happen

image_zps92db05d9.jpg

Ces

I don't think it tore because of what I was doing at the time.
This was obviously previous damage that finally gave way.
Looks like a previous repair weld failed.
It looks like that repair was from somebody snapping the suspension connection at the chassis before I owned the car

Oldsmaniac

The tear is at the weld. You will need to see if it is rot that caused the failure or a bad weld from new or from older repair. If there is no rot there it should be fixable witout too much hassle.

66400

Not unheard of on GM A bodies. I've processed maybe half a dozen with rewelded mounts.

Henry

oldcutlass

That sux, it does look like someone did a poor repair.

oldstata

The weld should be stronger then the metal it self. It don't look like the weld ever really took.

joe_padavano

Look again at the O.P.'s photos. From where I sit, it appears that the metal of the frame rail has torn. The only way that can happen is due to rust thinning the original metal. Sorry, but I think you are looking at a frame replacement due to rust.

oldstata

I agree upon looking again it did tear apart.

2blu442

I'm glad that happened pulling out of a parking lot slowly vs. taking a corner at highway speeds!

I agree with the comments that your frame is likely rusted and thin. I think you need to look it over really close to make sure the condition of the whole frame. I've got some hardtop frames, and could easily provide the front portion to splice onto yours from up here in Medford Oregon. But if this part is thin, I think its likely everything else is thin. There's been a couple convertible frames offered up for sale here, if you decide you need to replace the complete frame you might check these posts. John

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...ble-frame.html

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...g-chassis.html

MDchanic

A good way to do a quick check of the frame os to go along and bang on it with a decent sized hammer -
it should make a reasonable ringing or gong sound wherever you hit it.
If it makes any sort of a dull sound or thud, that area is a problem.

- Eric

Fun71

I had a similar thing happen on my '70 Supreme, on that very same bracket. I think it was due to multiple curb hits from a wild high schooler and his friends that weakened the metal so that it eventually failed. First the bracket broke off the frame, had it welded, then later the frame cracked around the welds. I had it welded again, this time with support plates around the control arm bracket, and the frame just kept on cracking in different places.

FYI, this was NOT a rusted out midwest/northern car.

jag1886

From the looks of the photo the frame was partially rusted away and then the rest just gave way. I see discolored metal at the inside of that mount and rust on the edge of the frame where it let go.
Be glad you weren't on a mountain corner going 20MPH over the speed limit.
Looks like a nasty thing to fix sorry it happened, looks like a nice car.

coppercutlass

You don't need to replace the frame . Imo if you can find someone talented enough you can fix that up. I did a bunch of rust repairs on my frame recently and it was a midwestern car. We welded 8th in. Plate to al the areas and the frame took the welds with zero burn through. You just have to take your repair that much further back. Then you have to weld the bracket if its salvageable or make one from scratch but you will probably have to find a frame shop if you do not trust your self to properly reposition the brackets. A friend of mine repaird his 442 he had a welder back his truck up to his shop and take care of it and the car took an alignment. The guy charged him 500 for the work including material.

Sampson

JMO but you should be able to look at the metal surrounding the weld failure and tell if it is rust or metal fatigue. You should also be able to see if it was a crack that kept creeping over time and finally broke. There is a lot of stress on this section of the frame. Hard to tell from the pic but is this the original factory weld or a repair weld? From the picture the metal at the break appears bright and shiny and would indicate the break happened all at once. My guess would be that since the fracture happened in the metal adjacent to the weld that the weld was too hot and crystalized the surrounding metal making it brittle. Nice looking car by the way.

Ces

Thank you all for the great info and guidance.
Yes, believe it or not, I see this as a huge blessing.
I drive this car all the time, on the freeway and at speeds up to 80mph.
The fact that it failed in a parking lot, while I was nearly standing still, is a great blessing. I'm very thankful.
And while it's sad, I'm looking in to having it repaired.
If it's beyond repair, I might resource a new front frame, or complete chassis.

I have a competent mechanic coming tomorrow to tell me what happened.
Just to be sure. So when I take it for repair, I already have a second opinion.

The info you guys have given me, on here, is excellent and I truly appreciate it.
I believe you guys nailed it exactly. I suspect it's previous damage, with a poor repair, that has failed. I'm not really seeing any rust. Obviously, we will check everything before we make our prognosis.

I will keep the BB here on CO up to date as the situation progresses.
Hopefully the info can be of help to other people in the future.

Thanks again for all the awesome help and well wishes.

Best!

Ces

Btw here is another picture that might show better what failed or what led to this happening ....

image_zps67303fc3.jpg

Ces

image_zps67303fc3.jpg

4speed455

If you do need to replace the frame consider removing the box sections from your frame, if rust free. Then weld them to a hardtop frame. I know convertible frames are not as easy to find.

allyolds68

Have a good welder jack it back to the frame, weld it, and get an alignment. It will be fine. Like Henry said, GM front a arm failures are very common.

oldcutlass

I would like to see some pictures from different angles, its hard to tell whether it was a repair or an original weld. The area has been painted as the bolts are covered. That failure would have been catastrophic at speed, you dodged a major bullet. I believe the whole frame needs to be inspected for possible additional issues.

coppercutlass

it should be easy. When the part broke did it leave rust crumbs all over the place ? that would be a dead giveaway that it was rust. if not then just a broken weld. I didn't see any in the pic.

Ces

I almost did the same thing, but had no rope.
I was out there so long, I almost limped home as is.
Glad I didn't. Probably would have cost me a straight, well painted fender.
Mostly straight, as it got lightly tweeked when the wheel first rubbed as the weld let go...


Yes, I think so. Everything seems to be pointing to that. I suspected rust at first but it seems more likely a bad repair.

AAA driver said, "this car is going to sustain severe damage when I load it, tow it, and unload it. It could be 900 different things that go wrong. I'm not sure which one it will be, but it will happen. I have to secure the car at all four corners. I'm going to wrench the car to the flatbed at all 4 wheels. including the unstable wheel that's damaged, and there's no alternative.
So you have to sign this waiver, releasing 100% liability from me, my employer, and AAA for the damage that is going to happen."

I had to tell him that I believe we could get it to my home, about 2 miles away, with out any real additional damage. I'd sign a waiver about the loading and unloading, but not to cover his entire process. never that. and with his certainty about substantial additional damage, he was the wrong guy for the job. So I thanked him and sent him on his way, to his great relief.

Interesting point, when I contacted Hagerty and explained the issue and how it may affect the tow, they were able to get American Tow in Concord, Ca. to send their "classic car specialist". This young kid of about 23 was extremely excited to see the Cutlass and said,
"Oh we can get this thing home safe, no problem! I aint scared!!"

Turns out he was right. I suggested we drive it, in reverse, on to the flatbed and he agreed.
reverse, because of how the car was in the parking lot, and no real ability to turn or turn around. It was facing forward at a curb. So it was reverse or nothing, as far as driving it or winching it, onto the trailer.

We got it on the truck no problem.
As I backed it on to the ramp, he saw my front right wheel moving towards the fender, so he kicked it. That worked. Saved the fender, twice.
He secured the car at all four corners. for the damaged wheel, he went to the frame, past the damage, near the center of the car. worked fine.


got it home, and off with relative ease and NO further damage.
Dude was awesome, and gets an A++ for attitude, ability, and competence.
Customer service too. American Tow Concord hit it out of the park.


Great news! I think that's it. Some people who looked at it said you can see it snapped at a repair weld. And the quality of the weld looks very suspect.


Sorry to say, that's what I wanted to hear. that this isn't the first A body to do this.
I felt like I was on the moon when I first saw it...



yes


agreed

Ces

Ok will do. And thanks for the offer. I'll be sure to contact you if we need that. Much appreciated.


It's going to a very reputable body shop that does frame work.
I'll be sure to have them check the entire frames integrity and for rust,
Thanks

Sounds like I might be replacing part of the frame to avoid that nightmare.
I remember people tearing this part off their cars all the time. in a small east bay city called Kensington. It was in the hills, with recessed gutters. Many houses had concrete driveway ramps over the gutter. the roads were curvy and narrow. Swerving to avoid the bus, a deer, or an old lady in a large 70's four door would cause people to literally tear their front wheel and suspension off as the hit the ditch then the driveway masonry at speed.
Talk about bad civil engineering.
My car looks like someone tore the A arm off, a long time ago. Then tried to learn how to weld when they repaired it!


yes thanks, very glad.

I hope so!

repair weld, I believe.

Noted, thank you.


YES, I REALLY HOPE THATS THE CASE.


Yes, the whole frame is now suspect, just to be safe.
As an engineer, we check things 5 times.
I will try to take some more pictures asap.
Please check back for them.
thank you

Ces

well it was late on a dark night, and a poorly lit location.
The break occurred in the lane of a large and busy parking lot. So I failed to check for rust chips in that location. But in the spot where the car sat for hours, and had the tire / suspension moved a bit, and was touched and inspected quite a bit, there were no rust chips.
I'll see if i can get some to show at the break...
Thx

Ces

So far, everyone is saying they don't do work like this and my car is likely going to be a total loss. I find that hard to accept. Anybody in northern or central California know of a frame repair place?
Any help would be greatly useful...

oldcutlass

Was it rot or a bad repair? Do you have people you go to car shows with that are good welders and fabricate their own stuff? Your not going to find an average frame or body shop to repair that because of the liability.

Ces

It looks to be a bad repair.
I am still waiting for multiple professional inspections to take place,
before I feel sure about what it is.

I do know some fabricators, yes. Not sure if they are willing and able to tackle something like this. Considering how important it is to get it right.
The car being safe, and going straight requires some precision instruments and experience. I'm not positive they have that...

I'm not looking for an average frame or body shop to do the work.
So far, the expert places I spoke to, said that same thing, word for word.
And they added that "they don't work on classics."
I called the local body and frame experts, Mike's Auto Body.
One of Mike's chain shops is supposed to get back to me after they review the photos I sent in, at their request.
The first Mike's I called said, No way.

oldcutlass

A good Hot Rod style fabricator can take the measurements from the other side and repair it. Then you'll need to get it realigned. I have a buddy that can weld anything, he owns a welding shop and we modify frames all the time. Currently we are welding a late 80's Corvette front clip and independent rear end on a 67 Corvette chassis. We also had to repair and reinforce the frame due to a tremendous amount of rot. The customer wants it. Anything is possible with a good welder.

Ces

Yeah I'm slowly learning that this week.
Just wish I was local to you guys....

70cutty

Hey man, if you don't find a shop let me know. My buddy can fix that, the only problem is I am out of the country for another 3 weeks. I will send him that picture and call him this weekend, we'll see what he says. It would be much easier to get him to do it if I was there but I'll see what I can do, he is always super busy.
He builds and modifies frames for local racers, that should be easy fix for him.

MDchanic

Experience, Yes, precision instruments, No.

These frames were not made precisely (by modern standards), and do not need to be repaired precisely, just properly.

It looks like that mount can be located very precisely where is used to be. Since it was lined up well before, it can be reattached in the same position, and should be fine, as long as it is properly welded.

- Eric

coppercutlass

I would pull it back re weld it then brace it with a plate drill holes in the plate and do a series of plug welds along with welding around the perimeter of the plate I would make sure the plate went forward of the control arm mount as much as possible or made 2 pieces one for the front one for the back to brace it all up.

Ces

Awesome, thank you.
My mechanic, who does fabrication and welding, said he could fix it.
Just found out tonight. He was abe to come look at it.
I'll be in touch for sure if I need to speak with your guy.
Thanks again!




I know that frame work takes levels, a degree finder or inclinometer, tape measures and precision.
That's how I see it, and what I meant.
I've owned a car that had the entire frame from the firewall forward replaced.
The people who did the work had a similar perspective on the job as you seem to, and the car was far from precise when done. It always seemed to track with a slight pitch.
I understand it's not brain surgery, but I want my frame repaired expertly, and with precision.
I wouldn't take what I said too literally.
Thank you for the advice. Duly noted.


That's similar to what my mechanic said he was going to do.
I think we're on the right track.
Thank you!

Ces

So what did you end up doing? Getting rid of it, replacing the front of the frame or what? I'd really like to know how you resolved that, or got past it...
I hope I don't have to total the car. I.E. Declare it a loss, as truly repairing it properly costs more than the car is worth. I could never bring myslef to "junk" an A body Cutlass. I don't have it in me...