The Clubhouse Place to chat about whatever's on your mind - doesn't have to be car related. NO POLITICS OR RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION ALLOWED.

Is there a chimney sweep among us?

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old February 2nd, 2014, 03:50 PM
  #1  
Registered User
Thread Starter
 
Macadoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 3,900
Question Is there a chimney sweep among us?

Hey folks,
A lot of you know that I'm trying to make the switch from propane to wood to heat the house...for obvious reasons.
The first week I had the wood furnace running it was fantastic. Regular furnace barely ran. But once the 30-40 mph winds died down so did my draft. I can't get this thing to draw, not even a little. I had it all completely apart, put in double wall stove pipe, and reduced the stove pipe run about 40% which also increased the rise angle. But the thing is, while I had it apart I checked the connection at the chimney and there's no draft there at all. And I mean NO draft. The house was full of smoke, we had all the windows and doors open and it's ten degrees outside! The chimney insert (sometimes called a liner) is clean. I haven't been on the roof but I snaked it with a wire "fish" and used a flashlight and mirror and could see just clean pipe all the way up to the silver bottom of the rain cap. The wife verified this.
Now for the techie stuff:
1. House built in 1836
2. Chimney height is good, about three feet above the roof at ten feet away.
3. Chimney has two flues, one used by propane furnace, the other unused except for the wood furnace.
4. The chimney insert (for the wood) is 6" single wall pipe. It starts about 4 feet from the floor and goes all the way to the top, with a rain cap. The furnace has a 6 inch outlet.
5. The space between the masonry chimney wall and the insert is empty, no sheet metal cap on the bottom but one on the top. The space between the masonry and insert was getting A LOT of draw so I packed it with mineral wool (good to at least 2200 degrees) but it didn't help. This doesn't make sense with the chimney capped off at the top (except for the pipe). Maybe the sheetmetal has rusted through?
6. The old clean-outs near the floor are getting very good draft, almost enough to pull a match out. So I sealed them up good so they don't leak. Still no change at the pipe.
7. We're getting plenty of supply air, no question.
8. I'm burning nothing but dry, seasoned wood.

We're looking at negative temps again this week so I'm going to call chimney sweeps and stove installers (again) and see if anyone is available yet. I've had a couple of knowledgeable friends over but they're stumped as well.
Any ideas?

Last edited by Macadoo; February 2nd, 2014 at 03:53 PM.
Macadoo is offline  
Old February 2nd, 2014, 04:06 PM
  #2  
Registered User
 
Oldsmaniac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: NJ
Posts: 7,052
Smart to get a chimney guy there to see what is going on and also to check your installation for safety.. If any liner is sticking out of the masonary on top it will cool and reduce draft. A cap there will also reduce draft. Too many elbows will reduce draft. An 8 inch flue would be better than a 6 inch flue. Lets see what the chimney guy says. Once you get the kinks out that thing will be great!
Oldsmaniac is offline  
Old February 2nd, 2014, 04:10 PM
  #3  
Hookers under Hood
 
76olds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,543
We had a wood fireplace prior to installing a gas, I had a problem with the top of the chimney at one time, the rain cap looked ok but the birds nested inside the thing, the had picked the wire mesh away a little and got in, smoked the house out until I realized. I hope you get it fixed before the cold temps !!!
76olds is offline  
Old February 2nd, 2014, 04:11 PM
  #4  
Connoisseur d'Junque
 
MDchanic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: The Hudson Valley
Posts: 21,183
1. You know that every original chimney of a house built in 1836 will draw well, unless it's been physically damaged. The original owners relied on it for their lives, so it must be good.

2. You've got good draw through the chimney itself, just not through the liner.

3. You know where I'm going with this: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

4. Your problem must be with the damned code-compliant chimney liner / highfalutin' stovepipe that got installed there.

That can mean only one thing: You need to haul your behind up onto that roof (and, No, I don't much like being up on the roof) and see what's going on with that liner and cap.
My chimneys are unlined, so I know that if I stick a camera in there and push the button, and I see a clean, uninterrupted square of sky, that it's clear.
In your case, with that damned cap on there, you can't really tell whether the pipe is clear without going up to have a look at it. Odds are there's something blocking it.

Are your chimneys on the ends or in the middle. I know a lot of early 19th century midwestern houses had a fireplace on each end, but the other design put two chimneys toward the middle a bit, which is a PIA, especially with the likely 45° roof pitch.
How high is your house? The average 30-35', or the "jumbo" 40-45'?
I would imagine that in a rural area in 1836, your chimneys are designed for wood, not coal. What're the flu dimensions?

- Eric
MDchanic is offline  
Old February 2nd, 2014, 05:21 PM
  #5  
Registered User
Thread Starter
 
Macadoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 3,900
Well it certainly acts like it's blocked. But I ain't getting my butt up there, I'll pay someone. Heights and me don't mix.
1. The flues are more towards the center than the edges.
2. I haven't measured but from the looks of it, the flue is about 24 wide by 20" deep.
3. I would say the house is closer to 35', again, haven't measured.
4. Before lighting it up today (after the re-install) I preheated the stove pipe from the inside of the furnace with a propane torch. I wouldn't have tried this if the pipes weren't brand new and shiny-metal clean. I kept it there for about 5 minutes but it didn't help. Not even a little.

I'm guessing 1) a blockage. But I can't see one from the bottom looking up. 2) something wrong with the top masonry cap causing air to keep the pipe too cold.

I dunno' fellas, I'm done with this and leavin' it to the pros. I'll let you know what the verdict is. Thanks for the input.

Last edited by Macadoo; February 2nd, 2014 at 05:24 PM.
Macadoo is offline  
Old February 2nd, 2014, 05:25 PM
  #6  
Registered User
 
Paladin31's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Battle Creek, Michigan
Posts: 2,244
Hey Mac, whats the spec's on the woodburner
1)there should be a nominal output BTU rating
2) How tall is your chimney
3) Is the Burner atmospheric or fan assist vent?
Do what Eric said get on the roof -->safely<--and check the bird screen on the roofcap, make sure it isn't 'plastered' over with crud or birds nest...or snowplug. I would remove the cap & look down {disconnect the vent connector in the basement} and put a trouble light or other source to shine up so you can see from roof without using your hands.
Did you try to fire it to preheat the liner? a small fire to get the draft started before the big stuff, a few balled up newspapers works.
With small fire started does it pull smoke & flames up chimney like a vacuum is sucking on them?, if its sort of lazy, crack a window nearest the burner, house may be so tight it isn't getting enough make-up air {you need to replace the sheer volume of air going up the chimney with some source. You should add a combustion air pipe insulated etc & drop it a foot below ceiling as close to burner as possible that runs outdoors thru a louvered vent w/ birdscreen when weather permits so you don't need to open window....WHEW, ok there's a start for you!
Brett
Paladin31 is offline  
Old February 2nd, 2014, 05:26 PM
  #7  
Registered User
 
Paladin31's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Battle Creek, Michigan
Posts: 2,244
figures my long winded...you already answered most questions. What was connected to that flue before the woodburner...anything?...it may be capped off closed....
Paladin31 is offline  
Old February 2nd, 2014, 07:22 PM
  #8  
Tree Row Hunter in N.D.
 
barnfind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Great white north ND
Posts: 200
Something jamming at the top sometimes creosote, bird, animal trying to stay warm. or chunk of garbage stuck from those high winds possibly melting, (plastic bag)As already stated pre-heat, anything coming out the top?
barnfind is offline  
Old February 2nd, 2014, 07:25 PM
  #9  
Connoisseur d'Junque
 
MDchanic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: The Hudson Valley
Posts: 21,183
I can't stand those capped stovepipe BS flues.

They figured out a long time ago how to get a good draw that was fairly impervious to being messed up (by birds, weather, whatever), and these new systems throw all of that away. If it was possible to install a T-fitting in the flue pipe behind the stove connection, so that it's open on the bottom, I'd pull the cap off the top and leave it that way - then the rain could fall through to the cleanout, like it was designed to and the flue would stay open.

I'm sure some local code officer with a Napoleon syndrome would tear you a new one for it, though.

- Eric
MDchanic is offline  
Old February 4th, 2014, 06:27 PM
  #10  
Registered User
Thread Starter
 
Macadoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 3,900
Sorry fellas, been busy with school...and staying warm, lol.
Brett, yes, I've tried all that and more. Read just about everything there is to read on the subject. The PO we bought the house from were not only using this wood furnace, it was their only furnace. It's a Daka mo. 521. It's a nice unit.
I'm betting on a clogged rain cap. It's the only thing I can't see and it fits with all the facts. I can't get anyone to come out but it wouldn't matter, the roof is high, steep pitched, and covered in snow and ice. I ordered (and just recieved) a SootEater flexible sweep system. It's designed to use from below so if I can get all the way to the cap, maybe I can get it opened up....or knocked off...by accident.
Eric, it does have a "T" joint clean out. And actually the "T" empties into the old ash clean-out. IF the cap gets "accidentally" knocked off and that "T" should get some water in it, will it adversely effect the draw? As in cool the flue gasses before they can go up the flue?
On a lighter note; I tried taping an old smart phone to the old sweep brush poles to try and get some video from the outside but the poles were too flexible, lol. I still may try it from the inside. I might actually get some vid of the pipe condition too if I can figure out how to tape a small light on there too. We're looking at more snow and several nights of below zero temps again.
Eric, I made it to Portland once but it was in the summer. Do you deal with this every year?

Last edited by Macadoo; February 4th, 2014 at 06:29 PM.
Macadoo is offline  
Old February 4th, 2014, 06:32 PM
  #11  
Hookers under Hood
 
76olds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,543
You don't want to knock the rain cap off, it will smoke the house out as well, you need a good functioning cap. Their is likely a screen under the cap as well so you may not get it cleaned with the snake.
76olds is offline  
Old February 5th, 2014, 06:22 AM
  #12  
Registered User
Thread Starter
 
Macadoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 3,900
Originally Posted by 76olds
You don't want to knock the rain cap off, it will smoke the house out as well, you need a good functioning cap. Their is likely a screen under the cap as well so you may not get it cleaned with the snake.
Ah, the wind? If it blows just right it could blow down the pipe. True, true. Good call. You're right, I may not get it clean but it's worth a try. There is just no getting on that roof right now, not even the pros will risk it. But this cleaning system I bought has a cleaning head similar to a weed eater and I've read online that people have had a lot of luck cleaning the screens with it. Nothing to lose really, just a little time. And they called off school today (again) because of the snow. It's nice having the extra time to work on this furnace but my classes are getting really behind, lol.

Eric, what about this wind issue? Is it not an issue with open masonry rather than the pipe?
Macadoo is offline  
Old February 5th, 2014, 07:23 AM
  #13  
Connoisseur d'Junque
 
MDchanic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: The Hudson Valley
Posts: 21,183
Hi Mac.

First, before I commence to talk out of my behind, let me say that while I have experience with a number of different chimneys and fire-makers, I have no actual experience with these stainless steel periscopes.

Next, to answer your earlier question, No, I do not have to deal with this BS, as I have original chimneys from about 1860 (designed for coal, with - Heaven forbid!! - multiple "appliances" into single flues.
The flues were originally parged (lined with plaster), but, as always happens, the parging has long ago chipped and fallen off, leaving me with unlined brick flues, about 8x12" (if I recall), and about 45' from the first floor to the uncapped top.
They draw like a blast furnace in all weather, and wind or cold weather only makes them draw better. (Note that the force of the wind blowing perpendicularly across the flue opening at the top naturally pulls the air up and out of the flue, as with the air moving through the venturies past the fuel nozzles).

It stands to reason that the same laws of physics apply to these metal liner doohickeys with the caps on them, except that the caps tend to get blocked up and screw up the system.
Older non-lined chimneys are designed to absorb normal precipitation, and, if necessary, drain it out the bottom, so if your flue pipe were sitting inside an old chimney and were open both top and bottom, it should work fine, especially it the dead spaces were packed.
It should be noted that many older chimneys draw too well for the "appliances" connected to them (such as oil burners, wood stoves, and coal stoves), and so have devices installed to automatically vent extra air into the flues if the draft is too strong, the same effect that would be obtained by leaving your clean out door slightly open.

I'm writing on my phone, so I can't clearly see all of the text here, but I think I've covered what I wanted to say.
Let me know if I haven't.

- Eric
MDchanic is offline  
Old February 5th, 2014, 07:24 AM
  #14  
Registered User
Thread Starter
 
Macadoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 3,900
Well so much for that idea. The POS sweep system broke after about ten seconds. Cheap plastic. The video shows the gal bending one of the sections at 180 degrees to demonstrate how flexible these are. I didn't even have it a full 90.
It should have been made of rubber hose with a tightly fitting spring inside.
Macadoo is offline  
Old February 5th, 2014, 07:29 AM
  #15  
Registered User
 
Professur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Mo-Ray-Al, K-Bec.
Posts: 1,815
How tall is the roof? It was common in the past to take (build) a ladder with 90° hooks at the top that hooked over the roof ridge to allow access up and down. It might be worth your while to consider that. I'm no fan of heights myself, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

No pros will risk it? That's unusual. You'd think a tough job would have them lined up with dollar signs in their eyes. If nothing else they could rent a bucket lift to get up to it. Might want to investigate chimney installers as opposed to chimney sweeps ... might find someone that way.

Good luck
Professur is offline  
Old February 5th, 2014, 07:33 AM
  #16  
Connoisseur d'Junque
 
MDchanic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: The Hudson Valley
Posts: 21,183
I once had success clearing an open-topped chimney with a number of lengths of grey plastic semi-flexible outdoor electrical conduit. Each piece has one flared end so they fit into each other, and each can be just barely bent to about 45° without too much effort.

I pushed then up the chimney one at a time, connecting them as I went, then poked and jostled until lots of stuff fell down and it was clear.

"Depot"-type hardware places have them, and they're cheap.

- Eric
MDchanic is offline  
Old February 5th, 2014, 07:34 AM
  #17  
Registered User
Thread Starter
 
Macadoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 3,900
Originally Posted by MDchanic
Hi Mac.

First, before I commence to talk out of my behind, let me say that while I have experience with a number of different chimneys and fire-makers, I have no actual experience with these stainless steel periscopes.

Next, to answer your earlier question, No, I do not have to deal with this BS, as I have original chimneys from about 1860 (designed for coal, with - Heaven forbid!! - multiple "appliances" into single flues.
The flues were originally parged (lined with plaster), but, as always happens, the parging has long ago chipped and fallen off, leaving me with unlined brick flues, about 8x12" (if I recall), and about 45' from the first floor to the uncapped top.
They draw like a blast furnace in all weather, and wind or cold weather only makes them draw better. (Note that the force of the wind blowing perpendicularly across the flue opening at the top naturally pulls the air up and out of the flue, as with the air moving through the venturies past the fuel nozzles).

It stands to reason that the same laws of physics apply to these metal liner doohickeys with the caps on them, except that the caps tend to get blocked up and screw up the system.
Older non-lined chimneys are designed to absorb normal precipitation, and, if necessary, drain it out the bottom, so if your flue pipe were sitting inside an old chimney and were open both top and bottom, it should work fine, especially it the dead spaces were packed.
It should be noted that many older chimneys draw too well for the "appliances" connected to them (such as oil burners, wood stoves, and coal stoves), and so have devices installed to automatically vent extra air into the flues if the draft is too strong, the same effect that would be obtained by leaving your clean out door slightly open.

I'm writing on my phone, so I can't clearly see all of the text here, but I think I've covered what I wanted to say.
Let me know if I haven't.

- Eric

That all makes sense. Especially the part about reducing the draft with other supply air to the chimney. No need for a blast furnace, lol.
I'm about 90% sure it's the cap that's causing the problem. Clogged with creosote would be my guess. I might try just getting on a ladder and trying to reach it with the old wire brush and fiberglass rods. If I could get it cleaned of some it might get us through the next couple of weeks or until the a pro can climb up there.
Macadoo is offline  
Old February 5th, 2014, 08:11 AM
  #18  
Registered User
 
Tedd Thompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Forest Ranch Ca.
Posts: 7,734
hillbilly fix

If it is truly the screen on the cap that is plugged and you have a good line of sight of the screen and you live in a area that you can discharge a firearm in and not get arrested I have taken a few shots at mine using 22 long rifle shot shells and opened the screen enough that it would breathe.This was at a time with about 3 feet of snow on the roof and no safe way to access the flue. The shot at a distance of 20 feet will not penetrate the thin sheet metal but will dislodge the crud on the screen, got me by till the snow melted.....Just a hillbilly fix....Tedd
Tedd Thompson is offline  
Old February 5th, 2014, 08:34 AM
  #19  
Hookers under Hood
 
76olds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,543
Lol .... now that's the way to do it a 22 cal. just wear a helmet , you need a firearms licence to do that here. Maybe a sling shot with marbles would do it to lol . Wind tunnel affect without rain cap especially if your pipes are up to code .

Last edited by 76olds; February 5th, 2014 at 08:51 AM.
76olds is offline  
Old February 5th, 2014, 08:42 AM
  #20  
Tree Row Hunter in N.D.
 
barnfind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Great white north ND
Posts: 200
pellet or BB gun and that hard hat!
barnfind is offline  
Old February 5th, 2014, 10:36 AM
  #21  
Registered User
Thread Starter
 
Macadoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 3,900
Lol, I read the same thing on a wood stove forum. Problem is, I don't own firearms. And even if I did I'd probably take out a first floor window. But maybe a neighbor?
Right now I'm in the middle of some Macgyver style problem solving. I'll get pics if it works. Maybe even if it doesn't.
Macadoo is offline  
Old February 5th, 2014, 11:48 AM
  #22  
Hookers under Hood
 
76olds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,543
Originally Posted by Macadoo
Lol, I read the same thing on a wood stove forum. Problem is, I don't own firearms. And even if I did I'd probably take out a first floor window. But maybe a neighbor?
Right now I'm in the middle of some Macgyver style problem solving. I'll get pics if it works. Maybe even if it doesn't.

Mac gyver style OH YES please we will need pics of that lol. If all else fails crank the stereo with a good sub woofer that should shake it loose .
76olds is offline  
Old February 5th, 2014, 12:07 PM
  #23  
Registered User
Thread Starter
 
Macadoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 3,900
Originally Posted by 76olds
Mac gyver style OH YES please we will need pics of that lol. If all else fails crank the stereo with a good sub woofer that should shake it loose .
Now that's some out of the box thinking!
My idea almost worked. I took a garden hose (two actually), used some odds and ends to get one end chucked in my drill, and drilled through the other for a few lengths of weed eater line. It was working well, got a few feet from the top, when the hose kinked. That ended that. Once it was kinked I couldn't shove it up any higher.
A friend is trying to contact his friend that owns a bucket truck. Maybe that will help.
Macadoo is offline  
Old February 5th, 2014, 05:04 PM
  #24  
Registered User
 
Lady72nRob71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Plano, TX
Posts: 11,798
Got some old bottle rockets laying about? I evicted some birds from a chimney once that way back in my young crazy days...
Interesting thread for sure. Hope you get it unplugged one way or another!
Lady72nRob71 is offline  
Old February 5th, 2014, 06:01 PM
  #25  
Registered User
Thread Starter
 
Macadoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 3,900
Originally Posted by Lady72nRob71
Got some old bottle rockets laying about? I evicted some birds from a chimney once that way back in my young crazy days...
Interesting thread for sure. Hope you get it unplugged one way or another!
Lol, not a bad idea. But since I'm trying to avoid a chimney fire.....
Macadoo is offline  
Old February 5th, 2014, 06:07 PM
  #26  
Hookers under Hood
 
76olds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,543
Originally Posted by Macadoo
Lol, not a bad idea. But since I'm trying to avoid a chimney fire.....

Bottle rocket, helmet, safety glasses , Fire extinguisher, a pounding sub woofer , good set of ear plugs for when the wife starts to scream at you ahh it may work lol.
76olds is offline  
Old February 7th, 2014, 08:25 PM
  #27  
Registered User
Thread Starter
 
Macadoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 3,900
Gotter' done. Discovered the rain cap was wrapped in window screen! And completely clogged with soot and ice. Wood stove is baking the house as we speak. Next week we have three more forecasted days of subzero weather. And here I thought once we got it running the temps would jump into the fifties. That would have been good too.
Macadoo is offline  
Old February 7th, 2014, 08:52 PM
  #28  
Connoisseur d'Junque
 
MDchanic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: The Hudson Valley
Posts: 21,183
I knew it. I hate those damned newfangled caps. Too many ways they can go wrong.

Glad you got 'er fixed!

- Eric
MDchanic is offline  
Old February 8th, 2014, 05:14 AM
  #29  
Registered User
Thread Starter
 
Macadoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 3,900
To be fair, it looked as though the window screen was added by the PO. The sweep said it should be more like hardware cloth, more of a half inch mesh.
Macadoo is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Tedd Thompson
General Discussion
4
September 5th, 2014 02:28 PM
gearheads78
General Discussion
27
November 28th, 2012 07:08 PM
matchek
Body & Paint
3
September 27th, 2012 09:46 AM
sethj78
Transmission
2
May 4th, 2012 11:42 AM
jaunty75
The Clubhouse
2
February 10th, 2012 05:18 AM



Quick Reply: Is there a chimney sweep among us?



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:59 PM.