jensenracing77

I have the same thing and this one burns my butt. Two of my guys work like they are making more than they are all the time and they get good evaluations. In fact, these two have less time than some of the others and are making more money than them. The others are of the mindset that if you want more out of me pay me more. These guys do not get good evaluations and also the same ones that call in all the time and complain that they are broke. Whan you pay them more they will be better for a while than go back to the same old story of needing more money to get more work.

wr1970

No ally you and copper started with me!!So why not let it go?

jensenracing77

coppercutlass.. I have read some of what you do in past threads over the past couple years. I sure wish more young guys were like you. Your employer is very lucky.

wr1970

I have had to fire guys never cared much for having to do that unless no other choice.There is always some people out there that think they are entitled.

coppercutlass

Since the subject of money got brought up by ziff396 and jensen brought up a good point im going to chime in on that in particular. As a young guy our odds of making good money are zip and zilch . 8 years ago i started at my first shop making 8.50 an hour after 2 years i was making 10. I didnt see it going anywhere so i moved to a different shop and gave my self a raise. I have moved around alot but the main reason is money . People think becasue we are young we can get paid in peanuts. I bust my @$$ on a busy week i will book over 85 hours of labor . If i work i expect to get paid if i dont i move. In that aspect i am very aggressive. I hate asking for raises and i have done this twice but i asked for a review and asked about a pay increased . I kept track of my hours and showed them solid proof on how they could absolutely afford to pay me a few extra bucks since i book well over the hours i actually work. They said no so i rolled my box out side and loaded up and left. Im an honest straight forward person when it comes to work and i dont expect to get bs'd . I hate asking for anything even if its something simple but sometimes enough is enough.

Diego

True - violence has a way to make things *so* much better.

Meanwhile, when are we going to have a thread about how Baby Boomers suck?

You've turned into your parents.

sammy

Best employee I ever had...showed up on time prepared to work, NO attitude, stopped when was told it was quitting time, never asked for a raise, never missed work for the duration he was employed by me. Had a young family and was........19 yrs old

The worst......my productivity was sky high with him, unsafe and reckless, made his own hours, huge attitude, lost me customers, cost me money in preventable breakdowns, hard on equipment, constantly asking for raises and advances....52yrs old.
i have not had a better employee since the 19 yr old. The younger and older guys always ask about the money nowadays. I was taught that if you worked hard and had some sense about you, that the money would follow
just my 2 cents...been at this 30 yrs

navvet

When in the military it was drilled into you from day one...you screw up here and people die.
I'm not talking a fox hole...just day to day operations. I tried to instill a pride and honor in our jobs. 35 years ago a young sailor who was always trying to push the limits screwed up one to many times. He failed to ensure a steam fitting had been inspected and cleared. Later that night a stream valve exploded cutting off the lower leg of a sailor and injuring others.
POINT. There is a value to former military..they understand value honor hard work dedication team work and responsibility. they understand the consequences of irresponsibility. Yes there are a few turds and most get flushed out in boot camp...some get thru as did the sailor I mentioned earlier.
What amazed me above all was, how incredible these young kids were. The skills and dedication were unmatched. I who had 15+ years of service stood in awe of the young sailors and their incredible talents and pride.
The new generation has its major faults but those out there who have a dream, a strong family influence and an old fashion education are second to none. I would stand side by side with them in any battle in any situation under any command.
Hire a vet.. the newest greatest generation.
That sailor who made a mistake mentioned earlier lived with that nightmare the rest of his life....but he never failed again and at the last reunion 3 years ago was retired a senior chief.. He still talked about it as if it was yesterday.

jensenracing77

We are on the same page. You worked and proved what you can do first. If the money don't come after that then I agree that you should move on to some place that will recognize the hard work. They will get what they pay for. If they won't pay a good worker they will turn that good worker into someone that will quit caring or they will lose them.

Our starting pay is very close to all the other local places but after you get some time in and show what you can do you can move up in pay far above any other local place.
Want to move to Indiana copper? lol

sammy

I agree Copper...a good employer should be able to recognize a good employee and, without being asked to, give him more money, bonus etc. there are a lot of bad employers out there too.
What makes or breaks it with me are attendance and attitude. Come to work and leave the attitude hanging on the gatepost.
The 19 yr old I posted about, got a raise plus bonuses and a company truck and a good referral from me. The 52 yr old got fired.

lshlsh2

As a small business owner, It seems I have to hire 3 to find one good one. Heaven help me if I have to put up a help wanted sign. It becomes a parade of unemployables. One person put on his application Reason why left "Boss was an a**hole" 3 times for his last 3 jobs.

Age has not been much of a problem but I will say I have had better luck with female employees than male.

Larry

jensenracing77

lol, We have had them come in and the first thing out there mouth is "ya all hire fellons?" if we did or we didn't don't matter, if you come in the door with that the first thing out of your mouth you can get lost.

dnmfranco

I thinks its too late for that. Sorry this is where there is no consistency among moderators. If you are going to remove threads or portions their of then that has to be a consistent intervention. I would say up till your post this thread met that criteria.


Please understand Eric, I know your intentions are good just trying to bring some light here.
Dean

jensenracing77

Thanks for letting me get all this off my mind tonight. It has been very interesting and satisfying. Sorry if I offended any young people. I know not all young people are bad, just a huge amount of them...

dnmfranco

Its sad as a whole and its seen everywhere, the continuous breakdown and non existence or morals and ethics among young people.

Fun71

When I took business classes in high school, we were taught "The customer is King" not "The customer is always right".

There is a huge difference between the two.

Macadoo

Whoa fellas, this is getting way too emotional.

Jensen may have overstated it a bit with the words "This younger generation"; blanket statements are rarely accurate. But he did qualify it by hoping it isn't this way all over the country.

WR1970, you make a good point and every disagreement needs two sides. However, you made it too emotional and once that happens, folks miss the message.

I think we can all agree that some young people have a bad work ethic and some have a good one. In my 20+ years of teaching I've learned that people will rise to the bar that is set (for the most part). If the bar is set very low, some will try to go under. I have noticed a shift in the past five years or so, and so has the wife. Mary has had several sets of employee parents tell their child to quit the job because they can't get two weeks off to fly to the Bahamas. Life is too indirect....too abstract for some. For most of us here if we don't work, we don't eat, or we lose or homes. These young folks will learn eventually. Unless they don't.

Jensen, you're being taken advantage of. Until you have a clear set of expectations you won't see much improvement. Do they have to cover their shift if they call in? That's a pretty good deterrent.

Octania

On the other hand, you don't hear many old timers expiring in bed and lamenting how they wish they had spent more time AT WORK. I have had jobs where I could not wait to get there and stayed as long as they let me.... but also the Commercial Machinery Fabricators Idiots On Parade place where I was never happier to be shown the door after the forklift accident. My Stupor-visor there was so iggernut he did not understand that a machinist *cannot* turn a shaft to 2.500" =Plus or minus zero=. The concept was lost on him. No point in explaining.

He was "kind" enough one day to show me his technique for welding nuts onto channel iron. Batch of 512 to do. I had tried all adjustments and cranked heat and speed up to 6 seconds per weld. He ASSerted I was heating too much and blah blah blah which I also had studied during the first 10-20 dozen samples. So I knew that was bullsnort. "Sure, show me your technique" I says.... he takes 12s per weld. "Ok," I says, "Other than taking 2x as long... what is the advantage of your settings?" He kind of ran out of answer at that point.

I learned years ago in welding how to hold the piece a little askew when tacking, so that when the tack cools it draws the part to the right position. So I did this on a pipe to its larger round lid/cap. 5 minutes, tacked solid and measures within 1/8" at the end of a 2ft square. Nother idiot comes over and tells me cut those tacks off that is crooked as hell. I give him the job. AN HOUR LATER he finally had it "done" and straight enough, after undoing and re-tacking several times. I went over and check this superman's result- off by 1/8" at the end of the 2 ft square..... same result but far more time when done by dolts.

Koda

Most of y'all know I work for a Japanese car company. It's fully American on the American business side, and I'll add a couple comments to how big business works these days. Firstly, it's not that all young people suck; it's that the ones that are coming to your businesses suck. That's not a slam on you; good people get sucked up right out of school and they never look back. No matter how hard the economy is; your good people will always quit and always find something better, and you'll be stuck with the scrubs.

Now, me, events of a couple weeks ago have made me re-think some things. I went and built our Mississippi plant from Aug of 10 till Dec of 12, and was home very, very little of it. I damn near got evicted because I was not home for a month, and my apartment landlord, who knew to call me because I told the dumbass so, figured I was not returning the lease agreement but I must've read it, even when it was still on my door! That assignment was supposed to end Dec of 11, but they forced me on another year.

I got a couple years of peace. Bought a house. Renovating it, being my own GC. Two weeks ago, my newly promoted manager (who should not have gotten the job), hauls my *** into a meeting, assigns me to support two projects at our Kentucky plant, and I have no end date in sight. So, every Monday, off I drive to Lexington, every Friday, I come back. Thank God the snow is hopefully done. I sit here at this moment in a hotel. It's a nice hotel, and I used the Kentucky plant gym tonight, so I'm happy. But what happens if I get married? Can I be no-notice put on the road for two years again?

They say I'm essential, but my pay does not reflect it. I have a performance review I have to turn in at the end of the week; I'm going to be rough on them. If you want great work out of someone, you have to pay great. You can't say "work hard, then the money comes." If you pay fair, expect fair work. If you pay well, expect good work. If you pay awesome, then expect awesome work. But, don't pay adequately and think someone is ungrateful for merely doing fair to good work. I could get 20% more with another company; I'm mainly here for the insurance and the job security, because it is good work when you're home, but we keep losing people due to hours on the road, and HR won't pay anyone competitively with the industry, so we can only hire scrubs out of college, who suck.

Lastly, they are trying to make me stop wearing jeans to work! Listen, you can get a collared shirt out of me, but this engineer ain't UAW, I WORK on stuff! Stick your Dockers uppa yo azz.

lazy394

I have a friend who is a car salesman and I asked him one day how do you put up with the idiots, his reply was to pat his top pocket. He then explained every sale earns him around a grand, but to get to that sale he has to deal with 10 potentials. Each one is worth $100 bucks. Each time a nong chews up his time he pats his pocket and thinks 9 to go.
Finding staff is the same, if this one does not want to be here or is an oxygen thief pat your pocket and move on because your one closer to finding a keeper.
Sometimes trying to retain your efforts and investment in staff is fruitless cut your losses and cut them loose.
My thoughts are simple, have you ever had a job where you really did not want to be there and looked for reasons to be off?
Ever been dismissed and still laugh about it?
Who now looks back and think I would not be where I am now if someone had not realized how miserable I was and put me out of it?


my 2 bobs worth

RonFX

Guys:
I do High End Custom Finish Carpenter work in Country Club quality New Homes, it takes more 3 years to get the skill sets needed to do this type and quality of work. The younger guys want nothing to do with it, it has no instant gratification and does not involve anything electronic, all of my workers are older and getting harder and harder to replace. I don't see it getting any better either, thankfully I will be retired in a few years.
Thanks, Ron

gearheads78

Same thing I run in to with auto techs Ron. I am still 20-25 years away from retirement so I get to see first hand where this is really headed.

Professur

I'll throw this in. I work in IT ... a field with an 18 month knowledge window. That means that any training you have, any certification has a useful life of less than two years. Retraining is a non-stop affair ... if you want to be anywhere near the top. I've been doing this since the AT was new tech. I'm always surrounded by children fresh out of school with diplomas and certs that you can still smell the warm toner on. They're great on the newest stuff ... the schools don't teach anything more than 18 months old. How many people do you know that have changed their computer inside the last 18 months? That leaves a great big hole right behind their learning that they've no way to fill, and I don't even suggest that they attempt to. That means that until they've burned at least one generation in the lab, they're useless to me in the field. Even then, older, mission critical systems are beyond their scope. I know of three companies that retain engineers on the payroll who's only job is to keep 20 year old electronics viable. One company (10 years back) hired the last of IBM's OS/2 programmers to keep themselves running and to finally manage their near decade late migration to ..... Win XP. I personally won an award for managing to get W98 running 100% on some late model IBM laptops. I still won't admit what I had to do to get some of the drivers ... but nobody else managed to pull it off.

Apprenticeships existed for a reason ... not all learning comes from a book. Books can tell you what to do ... but few of them explain in any detail the hows, or the consequences of getting it wrong. Some things you just have to get your hands dirty on.


And Diego ... spanking isn't about violence. It's about learning, and consequences. If you don't understand that ... please don't spank your kids.

oldcutlass

When I took electronics back in the 70's, they were still teaching tube theory as the main course, while touching on IC's and ladder logic. Core memory was still the mainstay and there was no internet. Pinball machines were still made up of relays and miles of wire and video games were just starting to enter the coin operated entertainment market. The government is a prime example of purchasing obsolete systems because their process takes so long to spec approve and supply.

In the 80's I worked on flight simulators, the computer and I/O system took up about 50-75 sq ft of raised floor space and the temps had to be maintained in the mid 60F range to keep things from overheating. A hard disk was over a ft in diameter and didn't store much. There was a 3 year learning curb to finally understand how the software, hardware, and mechanicals all worked together. Now those same simulators can be run off a laptop.

I can see specialized specific industries having an expensive and long training period and wanting to retain the ones that make it. When I was younger I used to think that there was no such thing as a bad employee just bad managers. I also used to think that the customer was always right also. There also was that time when I believed there was an Easter Bunny and a Tooth Fairy. You live and learn.

Koda

No kidding. We buy PLCs off ebay to keep our crap running.

pogo69

I Just received a verbal warning at work for yelling at a young black girl calling her lazy she complained i disrespected her and management agreed despite the fact she didnt do her job which i was told was not an issue....back up 40 years when i worked in a machine shop and worked at an older italian guys machine i left his area a mess , dont you knw next day he got in my face and swore at me ''dont you ever use my machine and leave stock everywhere etc etc...'' I LEARNED A LESSON... realized i was wrong
older workers grew up with different values than many today in a less touchy feeley world

jensenracing77

Or called politically correct world. The PC police are killing us.

pogo69

yes i agree and in part the work force is much more diverse with people from many cultures and the last thing HR wants is a discrimination complaint

pogo69

my warning for raising my voice was termed as ''verbal abuse'' and I did not sign the warning either.... I mentioned that i could be yelled at by a co-worker and if i was wrong i would never consider that as disrespectful hell you can yell at me all you want... what i consider disrespectful is when someone leaves their work for me...the supervisor (young) looked at me and didnt quite understand me

Octania

Interesting reads here!
Wait, what do you mean you "used to" believe in the Easter Bunny?

If you don't believe
you don't receive!

Sampson

Very good points. We advertise employment opportunities and attend career fairs in Military Towns for these very reasons. The most loyal, well prepared employees I ever had were ex military.

dredluxx

Quite possibly, but different companies and corporations have different outlooks on this.

I was taught the customer is always the customer.

That being said, without customers we are no company. I try to explain to the new guys this all the time. Maybe because I'm young they don't listen.. but nothing grinds my gears more than someone who works well and does their job right but has a nasty attitude with customers. I tell them, explain the circumstances of each situation with respect and a professional tone, if they get snippy with you send them around to the office.

pogo69

I am a little torn about this issues because I also have a part time business and I agree without customers you fail BUT the customer is not always right and if the customer gives me grief I tell him just keep walking your not welcome here

i should probably say that I am the one in charge and if I had employee's I would probably not tell them they could go off on customers

Sampson

I Really do not get it. The problem spans many industries and career fields. The businesses that rely on technical and trade workers cannot recruit QUALIFIED people regardless of the pay scale. As a hiring manager I would be flooded with applicants with a 4 year Communications or Humanities degree for an operations job. Local business is working together with Wake County Public Schools to create a career path for students to prepare them for technical fields and trades. Courses include welding, machining, construction trades, etc....... This is a major joint investment by both business and gov't. The program has garnered a lot of publicity. The first year the campus opened, the parking lot and buildings were mostly bare. No interest from the students

pogo69

welding, machining, construction trades, etc....... that sounds like a lot of work....now a days its easier to just say you have a head ache and you can get labeled bi-polar and receive disability

Indy_68_S

I agree with a lot of the above, but it's not just the 'young'. I see it in their parents & even older too. I work with a wide spectrum of ages & skills. Finding capable, mature, & professional people is getting harder & harder.

& since you asked ! ...

My take is that we now have a country that has a huge & increasing) segment of the population that has little genuine self-respect, has never had to learn to overcome adversity, and seems to be emotionally retarded.(Not to mention no critical thinking skills & zero sense of humor) Their sense of entitlement is so great, and their coping skills so underdeveloped, that the slightest inconvenience, or even requirement that they expend effort, results in bad attitude.

Some of my Pop-Psy theories for the causes are (top-o-my-head while on this concall !) :

1. They've been coddled by decades of constant advertising that tells them how special they are and were never corrected by their parents. ("You deserve a break today..." - Uh, no. No you don't. You haven't done anything. You have to earn your break.)

2. Our country's leaders no longer inspire by championing acheivement and potential, but instead blame lack of success on imaginary foes/forces....and then claim that only they, our leaders, can protect you from these. You can't do it without my help. Vote for me.

3. Too many 'safety nets' - No one in required to get a job. Just wait for that gov't check (& be sure to complain about the amount). Somehow people existed & succeeded for centuries without school lunch programs (3 meals per day now!...and weekends too!). There are no longer any consequences for bad life decisions.

4. No major nationwide catastrophes in the last few decades that would bring people together & eliminate some of the endless gov't services (& possibly thin the herd).

5. 'Political correctness' (See emotional retardation above) When I was growing up, people you knew would come up with the most heinous insults possible. You were expected to return the insult in a creative and at least equally heinous way. Respect was earned, critical thinking and creativity improved, and emotional control was developed. Now, the slightest challenge to some is met with pouting and/or cries of 'Bully!'.

So, IMO, whatever is wrong with the 'young' is contagious & spreading....

Professur

Can't argue with any of that.

jensenracing77

X2. Very well said.

As far as "our country's leaders no longer inspire by championing acheivement and potential"... I am not looking to turn this political but you may love what you hear if you listen to Ben Carson in some of his interviews.

Dave Siltman

Eric, let me give you a little tip.... If you have no policy for reprimanding an employee for excessive tardiness, multiple absences, and the like....my friend you will be liable if this employee is fired. The term "negligent retention" comes into effect. The employee would win a suit and probably be rewarded unemployment. There must be a company policy in this area and it must be enforced. Sad but true; been there and done it. I think the work ethic of a high percentage of the next generation is different from our generation. There are certainly some young entrepreneurs out there, but they seem to be few and far in between.
I'd rather not participate in the "opinion" segment of this thread, but what I did voice is true in Maryland Labor Laws. Each state has different laws pertaining to hiring, termination of employment, unemployment compensation, etc. I'd talk with your HR manager before you make a rash decision that could back to haunt you.

pogo69

your right about the documentation that is important, as far as winning an unemployment benefit hearing that is difficult as an employer even with documentation...I went to three hearings for a former employer and lost two to the employee, unemployment dept mostly decides with the worker and frankly they are there to give benefits