Guttermouth

Hey guys,

I wasn't able to post as much as I would like lately, because of being very busy with moving to onther home. But I did find the time to pick up this beauty, wich I also have some questions about. I would like to know just how original it is, and what I'm missing on the car. So I made a few quick pictures, before It goes into my friends garage for a while, untill I'm done with my new home, and when the weather gets better ofcourse.

I'm thinking of putting this car up for a restauration, but that's for in the future.

I have done some reasearch on the VIN and body plate's and I've come up with this, allthough I havent figured out some parts of it, I've put a question mark after them.

VIN:
Make: Oldsmobile
Model: 34257-A
Motor: TQ ? (don't know what that means)
Chassis : 3 (Oldsmobile) 42 (cutlass Supreme) 57 (2dr Hollyday coupe) 1(1971) M (Lansing, MI) 147456 (Production Number)

Body:
TR/977 (Pearl white or something I believe, correct me if I'm wrong plz)
24 (Nordic blue)
C (Blue Vinyl top, But mine has been removed I guess)
02B (2nd week of Februari)
B85 (Special trim strip option for the top of the door and rear quarter panel (shown in picture)

So basicaly my questions are:
1. Is the car special in any way, being an sx or whatever, because so many different websites say different things about the requirements for being an sx. I do have a 455 and I do have the rear bumper with 2 exhaust holes.

2.What does MOTOR TQ mean on the VIN plate.

3. I think my car is missing some trimming, like the wheel well trims and the Rocker panels, or where these optional? Also im missing the Cutlass supreme logo's on the front quarter panels and the OLDSMOBILE letters on the trunk lid, or again, where these optional? (missing the Olds logo on the front grille too)

4. All this together (missing logo's and letters, missing trim plates or not I don't know) no vinyl roof but body plate has letter C on it) has led me to believe the car has been painted somewhere in it's life, what do you think, is this colour original nordic blue?

Here is the link with the pictures
(I've modded the handbrake cable a bit so It won't damage the floor, and the exhaust is crappy I Know, so dont pay attention to that
http://s1206.photobucket.com/albums/...ic_20/Cutlass/


Thnx in advance,
Clint

Chumley

Don't know what the "different" things those other web sites say about a car being an SX or not, but basically it was an option package that gave you a 455 motor, TH400 tranny, 442 suspension, and rear bumper exhaust cutouts. Other than original "SX" badges and build sheet, there is really no way of confirming that the car is/was an SX. SX's were built for '70 & '71 only, and were all Supreme models. Would be an interesting investigation for your ride. I believe there are ways to trace VIN numbers to previous owners, who may have more history on the car. Nice ride you have at any rate. Chumley

Allan R

Here's the missing body side molding and wheel opening moldings


The SX badging


Here's what the vinyl roof option looks like + the CS emblems on the sail panel

Guttermouth

Thnx for the info guys, But im not too glad about hearing the tags are from 2 different cars.. they where in the glovebox.. So wich one should I believe.

There is a th400 gearbox under the car atm, so when you say it was supposed to be a manual, the console between the seats was not supposed to be like that either. Maybe the flywheel cover missing has something to do with that too, now that you mention it, I did saw some type of linkage going up from the gearbox to behind the distributor, but it wasn't connected to anything else. (don't know if this has anything to do with it though)

I also don't have the red lights on the rear quarter panels, Ill check tomorrow if anything in the trunk has been bondo'd over. (has to be)

Thnx,
Clint

Rocketbrian

You are definetly missing all the normal Cutlass Supreme side trim and the 3/4 wheel well opening mouldings. These are specific to Cutlass Supremes, SX's are no different other than the SX emblems below the Cutlass emblems on the front fenders. You are missing the "Cutlass Supreme " emblem in the front grille. One item I notice that would indicate you have an SX is the bolts under the hood ahead of the hood hinges, which are for the braces used on big block cars. There should also be braces at the rear attaching to the lower rear control arms.
You also have "G" heads which are specific to 1971 455s. If you wish to confirm if you have the original block check the VIN number on the block to your dash VIN number. It certainly looks like you have 1 of 1820 SX hardtops. Also, the SX package did not include the FE2 442 suspension.

vette442

With the TQ engine - 320 hp 455 w/ TH400 automatic in 1971 - you likely have a real Y-79 SX if the second tag shown and the drivetrain VIN match your car. Check the engine and trans VINs here (scroll down) to see if they match your car's VIN:

http://highoctaneauto.com/newpage66.htm

I've never seen the second tag on a Lansing built car. Looks like one from a mid-60s GM car, or could it be a Canadian export car tag? I didn't see any info on what you car's VIN is - is it the same as on the second tag shown? What is the VIN on the tag on the front of the dash? The VIN would not be on the Cowl trim tag. Those two may go together yet...

This is code 24 Nordic Blue:



Terry

Allan R

I was looking at this pic you have on your web host


... and I noticed that cowl tag is missing the stamping for being manufactured by GM and meeting federal standards etc. I have never seen a tag without that info. My Cutlass was 'exported' to Canada and was manufactured at Lansing - it has all the stampings.

The next bit of information that conflicts and that's why I suggested you have a cowl tag and something else from another car.... Just noticed the second long tag shows export to Switzerland. The cowl tag shows it is a 4257 (supreme) manufactured in LAN with body 290726. That means that the second tag may actually be the import tag that should match the cars VIN for import to SW. They may use the word CHASSIS to indicate VIN. It shows a 4257 (Supreme) 1(71 model year) M (lansing) with a completely different number (147456)

I think someone's been up to something on this car. I know the cowl tag should never have been taken off, but it looks wrong. The B85 is a trim that goes with the car - that's fine. Trim 977 is a white interior.

What is the VIN number on the car? If it is a 71 Supreme out of Lansing and exported to Switzerland, I'm going to go on a "hunch" and guess your VIN is 342571M147456. If it is, you may be ok on this. But I would definitely get that cowl tag riveted back where it belongs. Is there any indication the long tag could have been riveted over the cowl tag? Look for 4 different holes where the cowl tag should go and see if the rivets line up for both plates.

Guttermouth

Thnx for the info so far guys,

I've taken some more pictures of some vin numbers I could find,
I could not find a number ons the trans but I added the pic of where it was supposed to be anyways.

The engine vin and vin behind the glass seem to match the big tag.
here is the link again:
http://s1206.photobucket.com/albums/...ic_20/Cutlass/

The big tag seems to be a tag from Switzerland indeed
http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?t=173102 (scroll down a bit, my speedometer is also in KM/h allthough this could be converted)

But I've got two new things I wonder about now, as you can see on the added pictures, I don't have original hooks for the exhaust on the left side, just some welded hooks that someone made. And another thing, My car wont go in park with the floor shifter, When i push it in park, the car keeps rollin so i always have to use the handbrake, now when you look at the pictures you can see a rod that comes up from the gearbox (as noted in my former reply) when I push it and whiggle it around, i noticed that the car goes into park. When I press the 'lever' (for lack of a better word) down where the rod is supposed to go in to, the car won't start anymore. I think because of the safety that you cant start when the car is in a gear.

So it's possible that the car had a steering wheel shifter instead of a floorshifter?

2 pretty weird things I guess,
Clint

Seff

Hold on to that speedo - I for one would like one at one point, though I'm not in any dire need. Finding someone overseas that wants km/h instead of mph shouldn't be difficult, I would imagine.

Allan R

That's cool! I have never seen a Swiss produced car before. BTW the cowl tag was supposed to be mounted on the top of the cowl. Here's a good link that shows where it should be. http://chevellestuff.net/1972/trim_tag.htm The Cowl tag breakdown is for chevelle, not Olds. It's just to show you where they were on ALL 70's GM cars. You might find the holes there for the long tag from SW. If the car was manufactured in SW, it will likely have a Km/hr speedo. In Canada GM produced Km/hr overlays for these cars because we changed to metric back around 76. I didn't see a pic of the speedo in your photos.

You think correctly. None of them will start in gear - it's a safety lockout. That 'rod' you're referring to is part of the shift linkage that is typically used by column mounted transmission selectors. I still believe your car was originally a SMT - that's what the engine code suggests. That linkage attaches to an 'ear' on the steering column. It's easy enough to change a steering column from column to floor shift. BTW the speedo should not have a PRNDSL on the face. Either way, if it was a SMT - not necessary. And conversion to floor shift, you also replace the speedo for one that doesn't have the shift indicator onit.

Here's a link from the website "Wild About Cars" that has specific information about 71 Identification. Maybe you could find your trans code knowing where to look. http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/membe..._Section_0.pdf

There are some other things on your car you may not be aware of. The rear bumper pics? It apparently used to have the optional bumperettes. See those squared piercings? Thats where they attached. The front doesn't appear to have them though.

The headlight bezel is missing the trim that says "lights"

Your car must get pretty cold, the heater isn't hooked up. You have the hose going from the water pump back -- to where??? It's supposed to be hooked up to the heater box. Can't see where it goes in your photo. The car didn't have AC, so it's not going to a water valve at the back of the manifold. Is it blocked off or plugged somewhere??? If it is, a simple thing would be to install it back where it belongs. You'll need it for those cold days.

The hangers for the dual exhaust and trumpets is easily available through sources like Parts Place, Tamraz, Supercars Unlimited, OPG to name a few. They bolt on; and they are specially made to align the trumpet exhaust in just the right position so if fits properly into the cutouts of the bumper.

They also have replacement lenses if you want to replace that broken lower left one.

Guttermouth

Hey,

Ok Here's a pic of the speedo, and the water cooling hose:

It's an Edelbrock performer RPM Intake, so thats maybe why it's connected to the back of the manifold, Don't know why it's not connected normally though.

The Speedo doesn't show km/h but 200mph on the speedo seems very unlikely, It also does not show the stance of the gear.


-So, what are we looing at here, It's a 455 allright, with numbers mathing, It has the dubble exhaust bumper, but it doesn't have the exhaust hooks on the left side.

-It probably had a column mounted transmission selector cause of that rod and ear at the steering rod. And the engine code (TQ) that you think is a 455 with SMT, allthough Vette442 said It means it was a 455 with th400. (not trying to put you guys against eachother or something, but I don't know who is right :P) Let's say it had a column mounted selector, could it then still have 2 front seats and not a bench? If it had a bench, the midconsole between the seats was not their either.

I still hope it's an sx though :P

I didn't notice the trim for the the lights missing indeed, same with the rear bumper, didnt know that thnx
and thx for that website, that does have alot of usefull unformation
Clint

vette442

Hi Clint -
No 455-equipped Supremes came with 4 speeds in 1971 (just 350 cars), so it has to be the L32 455 with the TH400 automatic.

Yes, you could have bucket seats and a column shifter. What's weird is that your cowl tag doesn't show an A51 for buckets or an A52 for bench seat. Most tags have one code or the other.

I'm often a skeptic on undocumented SXes, but odds are good that you have a real one. Did you check under the rear seat bottom cushion for your Fisher Body broadcast card? It may have a Y79 stamp on it indicating the SX....
Terry

AllanR - sorry that we're "sparring" again on a thread.

Allan R

Terry, CS had the option for an A65 split bench seat with the armrest, you could not get an A52 seat in the CS. In fact both A51 and A65 were standard CS seats at no cost depending on what you wanted. A52 was for the lower trim cars like f85, Cutlass and Cutlass S. (and VC of course) I agree that it's unusual to not see it on the cowl tag. But then again, I've never seen a cowl tag that looks like this one either. It's a fresh experience.

It would be really nice to see the broadcast card. Highly unlikely to find a build sheet I think, given that this car has been played with already. I still would like to know why the trans has that linkage for the column. A factory build one will not have that. Could the tranny be a transplant?

Aw heck Terry, I just like chatting with you. No offense taken one way or another. I'm open to learning. I guess where it gets confusing for me is the info about the engine/tranny that I got was from the 71 CSM. I try hard to do research on 'the unknown' before I throw it into the pot. Your contribution to the thread is also a great learning experience for all of us. That is the first OEM 'metric' speedo I've ever seen in a 72 Cutlass. BTW, did you notice it doesn't have the PRNDSL? So that means the buckets and console are probably the right application here. Can you please have a look at page 04 of the 71 manual link I posted. You can see where the confusion starts with the TQ code...Its listed in the 455 engine specs with a SMT. Need help understanding that. The 455/400 must be documented elsewhere, as it just makes sense to marry these power teams, but I can't find where that is in the manual.

stevengerard

isn't 977 code for white buckets?

Allan R

Not according to the 71 trim guide.977 shows with ** beside it. that indicates a bench seat. I know that in 72 the 977 code is for the white strato buckets on J57 models. Wouldn't 997 be the automatic selection in 71 for the white strato seats? Another one of the controversies that led me to believe this was also a SMT car. Also that it's European where the SMT was almost a 'standard' for cars back then. Now you've gone and really confused me....

Q: I know the SX automatically got the 455 - wasn't it only the 2bbl? Where can I find how the transmissions were selected (no pun intended)? In 71 there was the option for TH400 and the M20.

stevengerard

the SX was a 2BBL when introduced as a 70 model (in 69) but then was optioned as a 4BBL as well, eventually they eliminated the 2BBL version not sure if that was 1970 or 1971 someone will chime in.

Allan R

Clint,
re: heater hose on edelbrock. The edelbrock also uses that fitting for the engine to heater connection. I suspect that whoever had the car before you may have bypassed the heater if it was leaking. The heater core is not expensive and is an easy fix in your car since it doesn't have AC.

Take a look at page 1-18 of this web link and you can see how the heater hose routing is supposed to be. Now if the heater core is actually leaking, you can test that by blocking one outlet and hooking the other up to compressed air (don't use higher than 15-20psi) If the gauge holds steady at that range, the core is tight or may be blocked. If it goes down then you know thats why the heater isn't hooked up. If the reading is steady, I'd hook it up and see if I get any heat out of the heater. (remember when you do this it will suck a lot of coolant out of the rad as it fills the hoses and core- so be ready to top it up. http://wildaboutcarsonline.com/membe..._Section_1.pdf

I don't know how much you paid for this car, and I'm still hoping it turns out as an SX for you. I'm not bashing your car at all, in fact it's a darn nice looking Olds. What bugs me is the obvious shortcuts someone has done in general. When I see that kind of issue, I just know there's something else unseen that is going to bite me in the a@@ sooner or later.

BTW, I noticed that your valve covers are painted black. The 70-74 455's were Olds blue. An easy fix with a rattle can of the proper paint. Here's what the engine would look like if painted the right color. This is an unmolested (original) 455 with about 5K miles on it. It has AC so the alt is in a different place and the AC evaporator is where your heater core comes out.

Guttermouth

Hey Guys,

I've just removed the rear bench to hopefully find the broadcast card. But It was not there . I also tried looking in the front seats but from what I Could see there was nothing there either.

Yeah i know what you mean, and I don't take it as bashing at all, believe me im just glad you people take the time to research and help me like this. I payd a decent amount of money for the car, but do note that regardless of make/model these kind of cars in a decent condition go for 'big' bucks in the Netherlands. It's a rare car here, from whatever standpoint your looking at it.

Im hoping to find a buildsheet or anything at all, but untill that time im a believer when restoring the car in the near future I might find something though. or ill make it an sx tribute, ill see.

Thnx so far,
Clint

stevengerard

Allan, looks like a 72 correct or a 71 at the earliest (just for my reference as the oil cap is different than 70 along with the vacuum port). Detailing my engine next - nice to have some images, though I have the engine assembly manual so that's the final say

Allan R

Steven,
Sorry, I should have added it was a 72 455. 71/72 were the only years Olds had the TCS switch you pointed out.