skibone

greets,

i've noticed a few dudes here on the cutlass forum who seem to know what they're talking about so perhaps i'll finally find here a solution to my problem...please bear with me as i want to be as exhaustive as possible in the description of the problem...

also - im a quadriplegic thus unable to even check the bleedin' oil...so all work on my car is done by a friend...[and he's a true friend who keeps my ride running day in-out]...

i have a '68 cutlass s which i purchased over 3 years ago...
in january 2006 i took part in a benefit rally [for children hurt in auto accidents] and blew up the 'worked' 350 rocket mill it had when i redlined it for too long at w.o.t. on a parkway...
i have a th400/shift kit with 3.73 gears in a [10bolt posi 8.5 eaton] rear so it's not difficult to max the rpm out with those gears without overdrive... especially since i do have a rather heavy 'lead-hand' [via hand contols] hehe...

upon being quoted way over $4k for a rebuilt of the little rocket to same specs i decided to swap in a big block rather than rebuild the mill since i love torque, and i found a built-up 'crate' 455 [with a very early '70s block] online...
unfortunately the dude who built that motor did a piece of s%#t job and my friend had to take the whole engine apart because there was no oil pressure once we hooked it up...turned out to be incorrectly assembled bottom end...
after that was fixed we also swapped in a 'nos' heavy duty radiator factory made for 455 [i do run it with no shroud however]...
additionally we added an overflow coolant tank, changed the hei distributor/coil to accel billet hei high output, and changed the stock intake/qjet [originally swapped in from my slaughtered 350] to edelbrock torker2 ,and 750cfm holley 4160 [vacuum secondary/electric choke]after finding out that the big block choked on the intake/carb set up from my 350 at anything above 1800-2000rpm...plus new headers....fuel and water pumps were supplied with the mill and work fine...
i've also added a set of sunpro gauges - a tach, and an underdash 3 gauge pod [mechanical - water temp, oil press and voltmeter]....the dual dynomax exhaust remained from the 350 as it sounds/works/looks nice...
after finding the right ignition set up, the mill really came to life with that torker2/holley combo and now runs really strong...it dynoed at just over 425 hp and 550 ft/lbs...

however, from the very beginning it's been running really hot but it's peculiar because - it only gets hot once i get into some higher rpm....and we checked it with direct temp gauge to ensure that my temp gauge shows correct temp and it does...we also changed the thermostat to a 190 degree one...
i didn't have the gauges when i had the 350 in my car so can't say how hot it ran then, but the 455 runs at pretty normal temp [between 190-200] at low rpm/idle, however, once i go past 2800-3000 rpm it quickly climbs up past 220...at around 3400-3500 rpm i have to run at constant 230+ degrees and it goes even higher as i accelerate still...
this means that i constantly run my car for extended periods at 220 to 230 degrees...sometimes for more than an hour as it is a true daily driver [since it's my only driver] and since i need to run it on a parkway/freeway almost daily...

hell, if i'd have aluminum heads on the mill rather than good ol' american vintage iron they'd likey be warped already from excessive heat by now as there are quite a few times each month where the mill gets past 240 degrees as i usually forget myself and get a bit throttle happy on a freeway....i love the feeling/sound of my mill so it's hardto resist hehehe...

now, i would imagine/think that perhaps my radiator - despite being heavy duty - is simply still not adequate for that 'warmed up' 455, except for the temp climbing high only at higher rpm...i mean if it was indeed the radiator i think that the overheating would happen primarily at lower rpm...
someone once suggested, at one of the local cruises i attend, that it might be fuel related [fuel starvation at high rpm] and that i need large diameter fuel lines from the tank forward and perhaps a heavy duty electrical fuel pump, but we checked and the fuel line is the larger size [3/16" if i remember correctly]...

the mill runs strong and fast and i'm happy with it except for the constant worry that i'm overloading the mill temperature-wise and that i'll slaughter it in no time if i'll keep running it constantly hot like that...and living on a minimal disability budget i'll still be paying for my crrent mill for at least another couple of years [i had to borrow money for it]...so a cost of another mill anytime soon - or even of a rebuilt - is out of my realm of possibilities...

i am now in the habit of driving with my eyes scanning my water temp gauge literally every 15-20 seconds because the temp can climb from 'safe' to over 230 in a matter of seconds when i stand on the throttle a little at freeway speeds...and i simply can't drive the bitch at below 3200 rpm which is like minimum 60-65 mph speeed...
if i knew for sure that it was the radiator i'd manage to scrape up the bucks for a racing-spec radiator like a high-perf aluminum 'griffin' or 'be cool' but i highly doubt it it's the radiator...i have a clutchless fan btw...
and if it's the lack of shroud as someone suggested once or twice, i'd think that the temp would go high at lower rpm also no?....

my buddy is at loss for ideas and now thinks that it's just something that has to do with some kind of an internal probem inside the engine itself but i'm not sure what could cause this problem...

does anyone have any ideas why my mill runs so hot and only when i bring on the rpm???.....

thanks for any sound suggestions/help...
jerzy ))

2blu442

A couple ideas, first is the heavy duty radiator a 3 or 4 core? I have a 1970 442 with a 455 and the three core wasn't enough to keep it cool in the summer. Then what kind of fan do you have. I once ran a flex fan which had the blades flatten out at higher rpm. If I'm in high gear on the freeway there's enough wind to keep it cool. But if I'm in a lower gear and moving slower than highway speed it would heat up. Next, put the shroud back on, and be sure the splash shield is attached under the bumper. Those two items can make a big difference on guiding the air flow through the radiator. Those are things that I would look at. John

mitsudave

The first thing I would do is make sure the radiator is a four core...and put the fan shroud on.

skibone

thanks for the input guys...btw, if anyone else has other suggestions please post them...

what is that 'splash shield?..i'm not familiar with that name/part....could ya attach a small photo or a link to one?..thanks

as far as my radiator-i believe it's a 4 core but will have to ask my friend [who swapped it in] later on today to be certain...
but regarding your radiator/shroud suggestions - wouldn't the motor overheat even more at lower rpm/speeeds if it was the lack of shroud and/or insufficient radiator capacity???...but my motor doesn't get hot at 'lower-than-freeway' speeds.....
i'm just trying to be logical so unless i'm not quite grasping the whole cooling system concept properly, i don't think these symptoms point to the problem being the lack of shroud or even an insufficient radiator...perhaps i'm wrong but my friend concurs as well that if it was the radiator, the motor would overheat at idle and lower speeds as well since there isn't any wind action to cool .....am i incorrect in my logic????


now, i do indeed have the flex fan...perhaps i should switch back to factory fan??...
however, once again, the motor runs pretty normal temp-wise at lower rpm and lower speeds [around constant 190-200 degrees from idle to 2400 rpm, and around 200-210 degrees at revs between 2500-3200 rpm ..and it being a 'hopped up' mill with more than stock hp/torque that seems pretty normal imho]...
it only gets really hot and really quickly at higher speeds...and the wind seems to have no cooling effect on it at high speeds whatsoever...

i've had it a few times at 4900-5000 rpm on freeways but could keep it there only for a few seconds, and couldn't go higher [redline is at around 5200-5300 rpm] because the temp would immediately climb to over 240 degrees...once i'd slow down to below 3500 rpm it would cool down back to safe temp...
my speedo unfortunately went bust recently so i'll need to have it looked at but i figured that even with my 3.73 rear gears, at 5000 rpm i'm still doing well over 100mph...yet whether it's in winter or summer, the wind has no cooling effect even at those speeds...the temp just shoots up to very dangerous levels very quickly....
hence one suggestion i got at a cruise from a guy who drag races an olds 442, that it could be a fuel starvation problem and that i need a large diameter fuel line; and even perhaps an h/o electric fuel pump...apparently it's a common overheating problem with nascar cars at higher rpms as well according to him...but my fuel lines are the large diameter and i really don't think i need an electric h/o pump for my mill...hell, it has pretty large ***** but it's still just a [premium] pump gas daily driver and so neither the mill nor compression nor induction are that radical......

btw, i have no a/c and the water temperature acts pretty much the same in winter as it does on hot summer days...it does get hot somewhat faster at idle on really hot days [when in bumper to bumper trafficfor one] but not much faster...
and the only time it overheats at very low rpm, happens when i first drive at freeway speeds [and get the engine hot], and then have to slow down immediately to near idle revs because of heavy traffic...so if i go from around 3500 rpm, or above that, to idle or near idle revs, the temp will just keep getting higher ...but if i slow down from highway speed to just between 1500 and 2500 the temp climbs back down to safe levels even on hottest days and won't go higher even for hours as long as i remain within that range...
and if i just drive on 'regular' roads [with say-45 mph speed limits] and don't get the mill past 2500-2600 rpms at all but stay at those revs i can cruise at those speeds all day long on a hottest day...and i can then still slow down suddenly and idle in traffic for hours; even on a hot day and it won't usually go past 220 degrees...

btw, i'm actually planning a built-up heavy duty overdrive tranny for my 'lass because then i could stay under 3500 rpm at normal freeway speeds and thus would never overheat, but it won't be for at least another year before i can afford a gear vendors unit, or a heavy duty th200/th700r able to reliably handle that much torque [and my leadhand] for extended time....i do drive it like i stole it, constantly floor it and still wish it was much quicker/faster...
still, it seems to me that there is some problem and the mill isn't cooling properly even with my current tranny and low rear gears so i'd like to diagnose and eliminate that problem rather than simply 'band aid' it with lowering the rpms via overdrive tranny at freeway speeds...

i always heard that olds mills have problems with oiling in bottom end [hence the restrictors being a common panaceum] because all oil runs to thetop end at higher rpms but i keep a wary eye on my oil pressure gauge and make sure it stays at safe level...but never heard of serious cooling problems like i'm experiencing...

it's very possible that perhaps i'm just misunderstanding the way the cooling system works but i'm really puzzled by this problem...especially since i'll need an aftermarket a/c unit [such as vintage air] put in my ride this summer due to my complete inability to sweat [because of my disability, and thus i frequently get bad heat strokes]...and if i do have an a/c unit installed on my mill without fixing its current overheating problem, it will run even hotter with the a/c on...

i'm not trying to shoot down your suggestions just trying to reason them out...and so i remain open to help/suggestions...

texasred

Shroud, 4 core radiator (check the fin count...Auto Bone radiators are junk IMO), and radiator side seals.

4 core radiator speaks for itself . As for the shroud, think of it this way...at higher speeds, the "ram air" affect of cooling is lost without a shroud and seals because it "leaks" around the radiator and doesn't get "directed" onto the engine.

I'm sorry...did you say a 190 degree thermostat? WHY? Go to a Robertshaw brand 165 degree. Your car will be much happier for it.

C.J.

skibone

thanx red...
yeah i guess it kind of makes sense despite my mill running fine at low speed/rpm....

ok, so the common suggestion seems first - to be the lack of shroud, and second - likely a radiator being insufficient [if it's indeed a 3 core]....
i'll just have to put the shroud on being presented with such a unified opinion
:-D
and if the rad isn't 4 core, get one that is...

now, it will take me some time before i can get the funds for the radiator, if mine is not what i think it is, and i'll try to find a shroud - and have it mounted - within a few weeks...
hopefully those steps will eliminate my problems and i'll keep ya posted of the results regardless...
:-)

and i'll check via google if i can find that robert shaw thermostat too...i'm willing to try almost anything to be able to happily rev my mill and not worry about crackingthe block as i do it hehehe...

thanks so much guys...i'll get back to yas on this thread once i know the results...

texasred

I know Robertshaw makes thermostats for other companies, too. Mr Gasket comes to mind...but let me doublecheck first.

BTW...sweet looking ride!

C.J.

skibone

thanx for help/info...and the compliment...but imho any 'vintage' ['72 and earlier] olds with 2 doors that's on the road is a 'sweet ride' though...restored perfectly or a beater like mine...as long as it's being driven regularly and the way those cars were meant to be driven..and then some hehehe...
;-D

texasred

Robertshaw Thermostats:
http://store.summitracing.com/egnsea...3&autoview=sku

Mr Gasket is definately made by RS
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...0002_744369_-1

Oldsguy

I am going back to the beginning. Your good friend had to fix the crate engine because it was built wrong? Did he have to re-do all the bearings or what? If someone used to building anything other than an Olds did it, they probably used too tight tolerances on the bearings. That might cause your heat problem at higher rpms. I am not an engine builder (machinist) so this is not from experience but from lots of stories and knowledge passed around. Just an idea. You had no oil pressure and he had to take it apart. Is there a way you can hook up an oil temperature gauge and monitor that as well? I really an just stabbing in the dark here. One other idea. Take this over to ROP if we can't help you and you can't find the solution. They are true GEARHEADS over there and I am sure can help.

texasred

Dan,

Good suggestions, all. I gave that advise to take care of the obvious. I suspect the same as you, but I wanted to eliminate the "easy" stuff first.

C.J.

skibone

thanx red for finding those links for me...now i'm at a small impasse though...the temp ranges for those thermostats are 160, 180 and 195...should i get the 160?..but that seems a bit too radical...perhaps 180 would be a better choice since i have a 190 unit in there currently?...

oldsguy - indeed the problem was with main bearings ...in fact if i'm not mistaken a couple were missing altogether according to my friend to the best of my recollection...
believe me, i've gone through my rage phase already when the engine problems first surfaced when it was being swapped and if that dude who sold me the 455 lived close enough to me i'd likely be in jail right now if not for murder one, then at least for an assault with intention to kill [real steel american classics make for great 'equalizers' and assault weapons even if one's paralyzed hehe] so it's just as well that he's in bleedin' minnesota...i need legal problems like yet another hole in my friggin' head..and i've had a few extra ones over the years already [both - holes and legal problems hehe ]...
and yes, that's also what my bud is thinking, that the overheating problem lies therein and unfortunately that would require some major work once again, to make it right... the machine shop which tore the mill down and redid the bearings, after we had no oil pressure when we first dropped the motor into my ride, is owned by my friend's friend... and those people are very good at what they do but they deal mostly with chevies and fords therefore they're definitely not olds experts, thus it's most likely that they did those tolerances too tight as you've suggested or something like that...as red have stated here on several posts - olds motor is NOT a ch$#y hehe and it's the truth...nothing against chevies btw 'cause for a **** poor *** bastard like me who needs to 'go fast on cheap' chebbie mills are perfect but oldses are in a category of their own i suppose....

well, it [bearings/bottom end] likely is the main culprit but i'll get the lower thermostat and the shroud just to see if it will help at least...

as far as the 'realoldspower' forum - aye, there are some real pros there and many subjects being discussed there are simply beyond my scope of comprehension even...and that's why i don't post there any longer...when i first got my cutlass [and then again, after i blew up the 350] i posted there several times [under a different alias though...i think as 'juras' which is a variation of my first name..but i've deleted most of them since] looking for simple but sound basic advice with tuning [and subsequently for info on rebuild job/olds shop] but was largely ignored and got no answers...those folks there are too high on their expertise to care about simple nobodies like me with their basic problems it seems...
incidentally, initially after getting nowhere with my inquiries there, i even had andy miller [he's famous, or rather infamous, to many there on rop] do some work on my 350 [he's not too far from my place] when it started to run crappy at one point...and i regret to say - it still ran nearly as crappy when i got it back 2 days later yet he charged me very steeply for his 'work' on the qjet and motor 'tuning' [over $400.. and that's about 70% of my entire monthly income]...guess he deemed me a 'quick few hundred bucks'...[although such philosophy bites back in a long run imho]...then i had the motor tuned once again by a small local shop and they did it right for faaaaaaar less...that 350 suddenly picked up a lot of 'whoop ***' after their 3-4 hour tune job for less than $150...just stating the facts...and i still think he's good at building bad *** mills on high bucks budgets just not very motivated by people on limited ones and he still charges such folks a lot for nothing imho...

anywaysss...i'll first do the thermostat swap [but red, i would still like to get your opinion whether i should get the 160 or 180] and then the shroud...then i'll consider either getting a new and better radiator...or just go for a bottom end/bearings job IF i can find a good, reliable olds shop/expert near by...my budget is minimal so it will be sometime before that latter decision will come around...i'll first ask my bud to hook it up to an oil temp gauge like ya suggested though...
thanx ya'll...

Oldsguy

Well first off, C.J. and I refer to each other by our names, makes us feel more like friends, I am Dan. I have trouble typeing "skibone" (chuckle). Second, I hear you in reference to R.O.P. I have heard of Andy as well and he does have a good rep over there. I think your assumption may be right. I would suggest a little research if you are good at it. Go to their engine rebuild section or whatever it is called, not the general section. Do some specific searches on words like "bearings", "tolerances", "rod", "mains", etc. See if you can come up with some generally agreed upon specs for setting those main bearings too and then go to the engine shop and ASK them what they set the bearings in your engine to. You might find a discrepancy right there and it would ease some of your apprenhension before tearing apart the engine again if your other efforts fail to produce results. I sure hope this helps you out some.

elmo

I see many of the basics have already been discussed. One thing however has not. As an engine rev's higher and higher with a traditional waterpump, the more it turns the less effecient it is. So if you try a shroud, a thermostat, a stock fan, and make sure you have a splashguard, and it still runs hot, I would take a serious look at the waterpump impellar to be exact. Maybe an aftermarket pump is in order.

texasred

Good thinking, Elmo. By "splashguard", do you mean those impeller shrouds that you rivet on? I didn't know they made them for Olds waterpumps. There's a reman pump by a company that starts with 'A', but I can't remember it....anyway, they are supposed to be better than the rest.

I can't believe that anything extraordinary is needed here...like aluminum radiators or anything. We're talking New Jersey, not south Texas.

C.J.

mitsudave

Here's something I just thought of...does your lower radiator hose have a spring in it to keep it from collapsing? This happened to my 350 at high RPM's. It can restrict the coolant flow at high RPM's.

skibone

ok first things first since dan alluded to first name basis...if ya guys rather go by real names i have no problem with it so.... pleeezed to meetcha and i'm jerzy...or juras...the latter is just a variation on my [polish] name...j is pronounced as 'y' though although most american friends call me jerzy as in 'new jersey' hehe...[just don't call me joysie]....skibone was my navy nick...

second - thanks a bunch to all ya people for taking the time to try to come up with a diagnosis to my problem rather than ignore the post altogether or give a worthless , un-thought out, piece of advice...i like this forum 'cause it's really helpful to someone like me who's not a knowledgable gearhead...i mean i know some basics and before i broke my neck i rolled on 2 wheels as my choice of a ride and worked on my bikes when i had to [and often had to when i broke down in middle of bumf@@k egypt or 'deliverance' country hehe..shovelheads were quite easy to work on though with a knife, piece of rock and some crap i'd find in a ditch] but i have forgotten most of what i knew about motors simply from not doing any wrench spinning for over 16 years...

i'll heed all of your suggestions and will have my bud try/check them all out...from the last one: re-hose, to water pump, to oil temp/bearings, etc...gradually as my finances allow...

and i'll keep ya all updated on the progress here...

however, i'll have to 'disappear' from the web for the next week or two...just some stuff to do with previous commitment and health related to take care of...therefore please don't assume that i've suddenly started ignoring any posts here [if there'll be anymore while i'm absent] and became some kind of an unappreciative ingrate...

thanks so much and i'll be posting here soon enough...

btw, just found out my radiator is 4 core after all...

later people and thanx again....

duckblaster67

Start with the shroud and a 160*-180* thermostat, but most importantly...make sure you don't have an air lock somewhere in the system like your heater, etc. Always leave the heater hose to the intake off when filling the engine with new coolant until you see it come out of the intake. I had that problem with my 67 SS Chevelle and others too. If you have a flex fan...lose it, you're much better off with a clutch fan for power and cooling! Check the radiator for bubbles from a leaky head gasket as well. I'm a machinist, and rule of thumb is to always mill the heads when rebuilding an engine. Checking the heads with a straight edge does not guarantee true flatness. I've witnessed this 1st hand at work!

texasred

Ski,

Here's a couple of somethin's I copied off ROP. Haven't tried them myself yet.

"GM from a 95 chev p-30 van with a 4.3 auto. I also had to buy a upper hose for a mid eighties cutlass with a v-8 because the upper inlet is slightly smaller,other than that I had to bend my trans lines slightly but it dropped right in and even used the same frame pads and upper mounts. It dropped my running temps from 210-220 on hot Charleston SC days
to 170-180. "

"i have that ac delco radiator in my 71 cutlass. i also made a custom aluminum top plate and installed a dual elec fan setup w/shroud from a 96 ford windstar. got it from the boneyard for 60.00. it is a very close fit with a little trimming around the hose areas. i turn the left fan on with a switch (through a relay) and the right fan comes on via a moroso waterpump temp switch that comes on at 165 and turns off at 145. it keeps it cool at the drags, no problem at all on the street. i found my info on this setup at the chevelles.com website. there is alot of good info in the chassis/brakes/heating cooling sections for a bodies."

Here's pics of both: http://s122.photobucket.com/albums/o...m%20radiators/

C.J.

Oldsguy

Wow! some good posts with good info, about the radiators, spring in hoses, burping the system, fans/shrouds,etc. This is a good thread with lots of good stuff.

Well, hope to see you soon Juras. I spent some time in the Navy myself, retired in '95. I was an AT, you?