Charlie Jones

You didn't do this right . You need to charge the battery or install the one from the daily driver.
Take a jumper wire and ground the F terminal to the body of the car .
Then take another jumper wire and momentarily connect the armature (A) and battery + terminal . This should polarize the generator .
I hope you haven't damaged the regulator .

lazy394

FYI. This is a 90 amp Alt in my 59 98. It was a straight bolt in replacement. Only mod was to 'clip' this wire to take the external reg out of the loop. Only down side is there is no GEN light anymore.

Scott

Eightbanger

Sorry Eric those were pre cleaning pics, I had it looking brand new when I finished but forgot to take a pic.

Christ on a bike! I'm just gonna F this up even more.


Thanks Stellar, but the chances of finding a generator shop over here are about zero.

Thanks Charlie, I ground the F terminal of the genny to the car?
and armature (A) is the other post on the genny NOT on the reulator?

Charlie Jones

Yes, you ground the F terminal.
It doesn't matter if you use the terminals on the generator or regulator .
The armature terminal (A) must be MOMENTARILY connected to the battery positive terminal .

Eightbanger

Thanks mate.

I copied what this guy did on YT to field test the genny


This how I did it...and it would seem my genny is working fine?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBgp...ature=youtu.be

MDchanic

That video is for testing the starter/generator on a lawn tractor.

While the same testing method MAY work for a regular generator, I am not certain whether it does (Stellar would be).

Why not just hot-field it, like I suggested at the beginning of the thread?
Start the engine, put the voltmeter across the battery terminals, touch a jumper from the battery (+) to the F terminal, and see whether the voltage at the battery goes up, and what it goes up to.

- Eric

Eightbanger

OK, I'm going out to try that right now, but that test did work on mine Eric.

Eightbanger

Eric here are the results of what you sugested...I hope I did it right, the genny slowed down and made a different sound when I touched the jumper cable....and the reading got lower on the Multi Meter

oldcutlass

Is your car a 6v charging system?

Eightbanger

12v

MDchanic

If the voltage got lower, that's probably because, as Charlie noted, you polarized your generator backwards.

You said, "... I attached a lead to the positive of the battery on my daily driver, and touched it to the F terminal on the genny..."

However, the way to do it is to ground the Field terminal, and touch the (+) wire to the Armature terminal.

Also, I am afraid I was mistaken in my suggested technique for hot-fielding your model of generator (there are two types).
Your generator regulates its Field coils through ground, not through the hot side, so you hot-field it by grounding the Field terminal while the engine is running.
(The way I suggested should not have hurt anything, since you're just connecting the Field terminal to where it's connected internally anyway.)

Here are two links to Delco generator manuals:

http://www.steinertractor.com/pdfs/d..._generator.pdf

http://www.aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Dat...Regulators.pdf

- Eric

Eightbanger

Well I ran this procedure for polarizing directly at the generator to re-polarize incase I had reversed it.
I tried to do it at the regulator but got massive sparking.


Thanks guys sincerely for all your help, but i'm done with this I'm just chasing my tail...so this job is being filled under "Too Hard".
I have new brushes arriving in the week, but it would seem mine are ok anyway, so i'm just wasting my money and time I am going to buy a new Generator and Regulator or swap over to an Alternator.

MDchanic

That's certainly a fair choice, but before you do anything rash, I would recommend reading through the "Standard Duty Generators and Regulators" manual - it's quite simple and easy to read, in the way that all WWII-era technical publications are, and it may get you to where you can fix it yourself.
(Note that it refers to 6V systems and yours is 12V, but the only thing different there is the voltage itself).

- Eric

stellar

The Moss video is not valid for your generator. In the video they are polarizing a generator with a B circuit. You have an A circuit. A type circuit is polarized by flashing the A terminal with positive connection.

MDchanic

... And I am guilty of ASSuming that the Delco unit was a B-circuit, because the only generator I've messed with in recent years was a Lucas unit on my father's F_rd tractor, and giving him inaccurate advice to for hot-fielding the generator to confirm function.

But we've got that straight now...

All of our advice here on polarizing, so far, has been correct and consistent, though: A Positive, F Negative.

- Eric

Eightbanger

You see what I mean about electrics not making any goddam sense.!!!

Only found out the other day that you remove the Negative lead on a battery to disconnect while working, I've been taking the Red lead off for yrs because that's the power...but of course its the complete bloody opposite

And for all the reading and asking of questions, to all the YT tutorials that i've watched and all the endless connotations of wiring and bridging and jumping and testing etc, etc, etc...I still have absolutely no friggin idea of whether or not my Generator or regulator is at fault. lol

MDchanic

As long as one side of the battery is disconnected, you're good when working on it.
Doesn't matter which side.

In the case of the generator, there are two equally effective ways of designing them, in one case, the Field coils are fed by the (+) side of the battery, and current through them is regulated by interrupting the connection on the ground side (and A-circuit, which you have), whilst in the other case, the Field coils are grounded inside of the generator case, and current through them is regulated by interrupting the connection to the (+) side.

The problem is that different manufacturers made different kinds, and different kinds were even used within the same manufacturer (Delco heavy-duty units were B-circuit), and there is no way to tell which one is which without looking it up.

Once that is established, though, the testing and servicing are basically the same.

To reiterate: To confirm that the generator is capable of producing electricity, jumper the F terminal to Ground (Earth) while the engine is running and measure voltage across the battery - it should go up to about 15V within a few seconds (don't hold jumper on for very long).

To polarize, glancingly connect (+) to A, (-) to F.

Not that hard.

You can do it!

- Eric

stellar

Eric has this right. One word of caution again- polarize with engine not running. Let us know what happens after it has been polarized as Eric said and then after that what is voltage with field grounded and engine running. We can then procede with further trouble shooting.

GaWajn

Don't give up bud. You are my inspiration!

Eightbanger

Guys, will this regulator work on my 53?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3614780984...&sojTags=bu=bu

MDchanic

It looks like it should, but I would confirm that with Stellar.

Please note that RockAuto has an Airtex/Wells model 4K9 for your car for $33, and several others from $55 to $73, all new and guaranteed.

- Eric

Eightbanger

Cheers Eric, i'll drop him a PM

Charlie Jones

I doubt it . My parts book says 1119003 is the correct regulator for a 53 to 57 Olds without A/C.

Are you sure that you even need a regulator? From what I read on this problem , the generator may be improperly polarized .

As far as finding a shop that may do generator repairs , you might try a rural area , as a lot of farm tractors and other equipment use generators.

stellar

It looks like the 1119003 reg will cover generators ranging in amps from 25 to 35 , but it shows it is also used on a couple of lower amp gens and even a 45 amp gen.. I wouldn't use the ebay 1118896 on anything over 27 amps. If someone can give me the correct gen number I can look up the reg number. This does not mean that is the gen that is on 8bangs car. If 8bang can find the number on the gen in use I will see if I can find a matching reg number. Have you done any generator tests yet?

Eightbanger

It's Saturday morning and I'm back at this, sorry I didn't reply re the Ebay Regulator, been so busy at work not had the time or energy to look at the car till today.
Anyway, Charlie, I did exactly as you suggested to polarize at the generator, I earthed the F terminal of the generator to the body, and when I touch the A terminal on the genny with a jumper wire from the + on the battery I get a lot of strong sparking ...I then thought maybe I should have removed the two wires from the generator first and tried it, which I did...but same result.
Eric, then I did as you suggested, I connected a jumper wire from the + on the battery and touched it to the G terminal on my regulator and I got minimal light sparking which by all accounts seemed to be what is expected....I not sure if touching the - to the F is another way of doing it, or you mean i'm supposed to do that as well at the same time, or after I did the + to the A
Here are some pics that may help, I think my Regulator isn't stock as it differs from the one pictured in the shop manual, I had to add B, G & F letters to the terminals to help id them as there are no markings anywhere. and a pic of my wiring on the A & F posts on the Generator in case the wires are on the wrong way round?? clutching at straws here.

MDchanic

Looks like an aftermarket unit.



It looks like you have the big wire on the F and the small wire on the A - I can't see the colors of the wires, but in general, it's the other way around.

Trace the two wires - If the thick one goes to the battery and the thin wire goes to the F terminal on the regulator, they're the wrong way around.

- Eric

Eightbanger

Thanks mate, you were right! it would seem that during all this Q&A that I had the wires on the Generator *** backwards, I pulled them off and put a new connector on the Field wire and switched them over, I confirmed what you had though in my shop manual, the fat wire (BCT) goes on the A post of the generator, and the thin wire (BT) goes on the F post.
Flushed with the anticipation and excitement at seeing my amp meter rise to + I jumped the car only to find it didn't make blind bit of difference.
So my Olds runs and drives just fine with the generator wires connected which ever way you want, but true to form doesn't charge in either configuration.
And I fitted my new brushes in the generator this morning too.

MDchanic

So, have you tried grounding the Field terminal of the generator with the engine running, and measuring the output at either the A terminal or the battery's (+) terminal?

(We know you didn't do it before, because it would have been spectacular with those wires connected backwards ).

- Eric

Eightbanger

Is this what you mean?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNbA...ature=youtu.be

MDchanic

If that giant jumper cable is connecting the A terminal with Ground (which it appears to be doing), and if there is good continuity (sometimes big jumper cable teeth have dirty or corroded spots), then, Yes.

You can do that with a regular small wire, as well (the factory Field wire is 18ga).

If there are really good connections all around, including the generator being well grounded (earthed) to the block, and the block to the battery, then this is showing that the generator is not working.

Oh - Charge that battery! Lead-acid batteries like to be fully charged at all times, and will deteriorate if left with a low charge.

- Eric

MDchanic

Also, note what Stellar said earlier about solder splatter inside the generator body - you may have an open field coil.
There should be information about testing the field and armature windings in that service manual chapter.

- Eric

Eightbanger

Thanks my friend for all your help, and to everyone else who chimed in on this...

MDchanic

Have you tried these shops?

http://www.broadwayelectrical.co.uk/

http://www.colchesterrewinds.co.uk/

http://www.londonessexautoelectrics.co.uk/home

- Eric

MDchanic

Also, this place may not do larger units, but if you ring them up, they may be able to direct you to someone who does.

http://www.westcountrywindings.co.uk/

- Eric

Eightbanger

Interesting, I'll give them a ring on Monday mate, I contacted these guys also, i'm keen to see the difference in cost of repairs v that powermaster alternator.
Have a great weekend brother.

stellar

looks like 1st and 3rd options may be the most helpful. Let us know what the outcome is.

Charlie Jones

It looks like you finally have the wires all properly connected.
Now, try polarizing the generator again . It probably didn't get properly polarized with the wires connected wrong .
If you don't get any results then, you will have to diagnose the generator further .
Or take it to a pro and let them diagnose it.

Eightbanger

OK, i spoke to the guys at two of the links that Eric sent, both were saying about £150-£200/ $190-$260 for the repair and about 3 week turnaround.
So I opted for the new Powermaster Alternator, I was lucky and found a place that stocked them here in the UK, ordered Friday arrived today.
Just got home from work and couldn't wait to fit it, and believe it or not I still have the same issue ...not charging. WTF?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCyR...ature=youtu.be

MDchanic

Probably a bad regulator, or maybe a different wire wrong.

Double check that the thin wire is connected to the F terminal and the thick wire to the A terminal.

Next double check the connections to the regulator - F on alternator to F on regulator, B to battery, and G to wherever it's supposed to go.

Next re-polarize the generator.

Next momentarily jumper the F on the alternator to ground (you can do this with or without the F wire connected).
You don't need to use those huge jumper cables.

If the generator has been properly polarized, then while F is jumpered to ground, the generator should produce full output, and your ammeter should go well into the positive side.
If it does not, then the generator is bad.
Happens.
If it does, then the problem is in the wiring, the connections, or the regulator.

- Eric

Eightbanger

Eric, I've removed my old Generator, this is a brand new one wire Alternator from Powermaster, arrived today, it is designed to look like the stock Generator, but is all new inside has an internal regulator and only has single wire hookup.
I just used the Battery wire that runs from my old regulator to the single post on the new Alternator, in the morning i'm going to run a wire direct from my battery to that single post and see what happens, also found this on Powermasters FAQ...
I noticed that my Powermaster one wire alternator has to be "revved up" to get the alternator to come on. Why?
A one wire alternator has a turn on point (sometimes called cut in, which is typically 1200 engine RPMs). This is the speed where the internal sense circuitry connects the battery to the voltage regulator, thereby turning the alternator on. Once the voltage regulator turns on, the alternator will remain on and charging until the engine comes to a complete stop. If the engine idle speed and pulley ratio combination do not allow the alternator to come up to this point during starting, the engine will have to be revved up to turn the one wire alternator on. The sense circuitry in the one-wire regulator can be bypassed to excite the alternator as soon as the ignition switch is turned on. This is called three-wire operation. This means the alternator will not be dependent on reaching a certain turn on RPM.