7olds1

Be careful at the pumps, this is bad stuff.
http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/

rocketraider

Someone posted a bunch of old gas stations pics over on AACA this morning. One of them from around 1930 in Nebraska had signs all over to "Try Corn Alcohol Gasoline, 10% blend!"

So the damnable stuff has been around longer than we thought.

Someone had commented on that pic and one poster opined that had FDR not been so reluctant to push ethanol fuel, look where we could be today!

Yeah. Right.

Twice recently I've noticed my 93 F150 losing power and the exhaust smelling like burnt moonshine when it does it.

When one tank empties, I switch to the other and try to fill the empty one up that day if possible. It may be ten days before I have to switch back. All fuel here is E10 and all comes from the same tank farm roughly 50 miles away. They have to add the ethanol to the tanker just before it leaves, since they can't mix it in the storage tanks due to it will separate. Then the transporters count on road vibration thoroughly mixing the stuff on the trip.

I'm wondering if I'm not getting some of that phase separation they're talking about in the vid and occasionally burning straight corn likker, because it sure does smell like it. You'd think road vibration would keep the stuff mixed, but truck will sometimes sit for a few days without driving.

Mess like this reinforces my belief that E P A should be dismantled along with the corn lobby.

455man

I wonder if the new mandated fuel economy standards take into account the decreased fuel economy from the ethanol fuel.

Allan R

This is obviously a hot topic with lots of folks and that video still makes me scratch my head and wonder about something.

This 'phase separation' thing. According to what I heard in that video the Ethanol separates out of the gas and sits in the bottom of your tank?? Am I understanding that right? If that's the case and even the transport trucks get phase separation during transport, here's the biggie.
What prevents 'phase separation' in the underground tanks that store the fuel at gas stations? Where is the pump taking the gas from - top or bottom of the tank?? And, when a new batch of fuel gets dumped into the holding tank, what is the new concentration of Ethanol in the tank now that it's being mixed with a 'higher concentration' that has phased out??

Recently one of our filling stations here made big news. The supply tanker hauling Diesel dumped it's load into the 'regular gas' holding tank. They are now being held liable for tens of thousands of dollars damage to the gas powered cars that fueled up there. All our gas comes from local refineries too.

citcapp

All you have to do is go out into your garage and smell the contents the gas can you use storing you lawnmower gas. in less then a month it no longer smells good, and if you store your car for long periods of time with out driving it you can find yourself with a can that does not run well until you put new gas in it. This new stuff is just sh!#

compedgemarine

according to fuel manufacturers, todays fuel has a life expectancy of 60 days. they count on high turn over of fuel in the tanks at the stations so you should always try to visit high volume stations. as for the content of actual ethanol that is not regulated, nor is the quality. NMMA (national marine manufacturers assoc.) has been fighting this in court. they did a test with several Mercury outboards, several Mercruiser sterndrives and several Volvo sterndrives. half ran E15 and half ran straight fuel. all the fuel engines completed the testing with no issues and no change in emissions. of the E15 engines none of the outboards were able to finish the testing due to internal damage, the stern drive engines finished but had to stop several times for repairs and not one was within emission standards at the end. the EPA's answer was "dont care you dont pay us enough". as for the new manufacturers mileage testing, it is all done with straight gas to "establish a constant baseline". the sticker on the window is not worth the cost of the ink to print it as there is no way to get close to what any of them claim.

7olds1

The closest real gas I can get is one station in West Virginia and is a 35 minute drive, all my vehicles, unfortunately are using the e10. I had to get rid of my 95 e250, I kept going thru the internal fuel pumps after replacing 3 in a 6 month period of time, I got rid of it. Have recently replace both internal pumps, and two tank switching valves in my f150 and just lost another pump. Definitely best to keep tanks as full as possible, with the model A's this isn't the best, driven the least amount of miles I hate to replace a full tank of bad gas. The amount of condensation/water drawn into the the tank, you can watch 3 separate fluids floating around the glass sediment bowl. I'll see if I can post a link to the map of the US with the states that have restrictions on the E-15.

Rob delta

So we can't get any 100% gas anywhere? I thought only some stations had ethanol. I know for a fact Hess gas contains 10% ethanol, it says so right on the pumps. Now I'm curious about all the other companies.
Also, if 15% ethanol goes through phase separation, 10% ethanol must also separate and remain at the bottom of the tank in a concentrated state as well. So wouldn't it be just as damaging?

compedgemarine

there are some older stations that sell pure fuel. their tanks are old enough that they cannot put ethanol in them so they are not forced to switch unless they upgrade the tanks. here are a couple of sites to find them.
http://www.buyrealgas.com/

http://pure-gas.org/

there is one about 45 min from me. when I am that way I fill up and average 10% better around town and almost 18% better on the highway. it costs me $3 or $4 more per fill up but saves me saves me about $8 when you figure the better mpg. great how the gov. saves us by making us spend more.

OLD SKL 69

Thanks for the website link for buying real gas. Unfortunately, there is nothing even close here for us on Long Island.

65B01Delta

Great website links... I found a gas station 7 miles from me. I think I only bought gas there one time in the last 18 years, he's in the wrong direction for me, but not anymore ! He has the old style pumps.... My 442 & other vehicles will benefit from this...

Thanks...

ah64pilot

Dang! None close to Houston...so is it better to keep an empty tank or a full one if the car is gonna sit for a month or two?

coppercutlass

I broke in a 10 to 1 motor on 4 month old pump 93. Now i have a fuel cell and i dont know if that makes a diffrence but i thought id share that. Every winter i store the car with some gas in it and it usually runs fine next spring as well.

oldcutlass

We had our last real gas selling station quit about 2 years ago. My car runs fine on the 10% and I would venture to guess it will run fine on %15. Anything beyond that who knows. They don't sell e85 here.

Something you younger peeps don't understand is that ethanol based fuels have been around for a long time, they used to call it ethyl.

7olds1

The rubber components of the older vehicles is where you will see the first issue, the ethanol rots the rubber from inside out. The reason they were able to use ethanol in the 20-s and 30's there was very little or absolutely no rubber in the fuel system. I know first hand, how vial this crap is. You guys with older rubber fuel lines that run 10%, they WILL fail. The 10% also cleans crud deposits from the tank and steel lines and deposit them in the carb. Don't even think about running 15% in anything older than 2012 that isn't made to run on it, the fuel system will not handle it.

compedgemarine

as said the ethanol is destructive. any alchohol is highly corrosive and attacks anything that is not designed for it. new cars have special coatings on the inside of the fuel tank, fuel lines and fuel system on the engine as well as different hoses that are tolorant of the alchohol. just the 5% change has shown a 50+% increase in the damaging effects. we have had problems in the boats in that the ethanol has eaten through aluminum fuel tanks and big boats that have fiberglass tanks that are part of the boat are seeing the ethanol eat through the resins basically destroying the boat. these are boats that have been using straight fuel for 30+ years with no problems. the other issue is that older cars and most all boats do not run computers or run an open loop system so they have no input from O2 sensors to compensate for the very lean condition that occours with the added ethanol. to be save with E15 you need to richen the carb up to get back to a safe A/F then if you run across straight fuel or one with low ethanol you will be running very rich. as for the tank in the boats we have found that it is better to run them nearly empty before storing for the winter because the ethanol absorbs water so the less there is the less to absorb water. this is because like older cars, boats are vented to the atmosphere were it can draw water from. on sealed systems you dont see the water issue but the fuel goes through phase separation in about 60 days so you will be running on ethanol for a little while come spring which will make it run very lean assuming it has not eaten the inside of everything first.

compedgemarine

also keep in mind that only the actual fuel is tested for quality. the ethanol is added when they load the tank truck and is not a regulated or tested item. this has been an issue in areas that sell E85. if the tanker delivered E85 and still had 10% left in the tank and went back to load E10 they just mix it all together and a drop it at the station. they have found tanks at stations that listed E85 that were close to E60 and E10 tanks showing over E15. also in the winter the E85 is purposely made to around E60 without telling anyone because it is very hard to get an engine to start in cold weather on E85 because ethanol puts out about half the BTU's of energy of straight gas.

Diego

If you poke around, AAA is against a lot of agreeable things as well. They're a feckless lobbying organization masquerading as a savior for your locked keys.

7olds1

It is moot, how anyone views AAA. The purpose of the post is to point out, there is another entity against the E-15%. They have already given the green light for it's use, so look at the pump if you don't want a costly mistake. And given the overall lack of knowledge to the damning effects of E-10 by the general public, some certainly need be made aware of the issues to come.

67 442

Really? That's not quite how I remember Ethyl! Now I know why you have a Chebby in your Olds...you're easily confused!

Ethyl was short for tetraethyl.

On Feb. 2, 1923, the first Ethyl gasoline went on sale at a roadside station in Dayton.
In those days, gasoline caused car engines to knock or ping. It was not only annoying, but potentially harmful to the engine.
Thomas Midgely and Charles Kettering, researchers for General Motors in Dayton, discovered that adding tetra-ethyl lead to the gas eliminated the problem. Kettering coined the resulting mixture "ethyl gasoline," which was dyed red to distinguish it from regular gas.
It was first made available to motorists at a Dayton gas station owned by Willard Talbott, a friend of Kettering. Of course, leaded gasoline was toxic to the environment and to people.
By the mid-1930s a collaboration among General Motors, DuPont and Standard Oil produced Ethyl gas. They managed to suppress government reports about the danger of the product and tetraethyl lead was added to 90 percent of the gasoline used in the United States. Leaded gas was phased out in the 1970s.

65B01Delta

Due to the web-sites posted, I found this place 7 miles from me !!! I've been driving by this place off & on for 19 years..... only because it is out of my way and in the wrong direction! That being said yesterday I made the effort to go check this place out & filled up my truck.. Even though this station is small & a bit off the beaten path his gas prices are right there or even lower than the big guys. This place is a time capsule with the old 60's style gas pumps, which I would have to say, it's been a long time since I pumped gas out of on these type pumps (Felt Darn Good)!!! And it's even up for sale... Thinking about it..... It would be great for a cruise In, taking pictures of your Muscle Car/Old Ride in front of it..... See the pictures...

oldcutlass

Sorry, I went off my feeble memory and stand corrected to a point. Ethanol based fuels have been around longer than the TEL based fuels and were sold side by side in the early history of gasoline. The main reason it never gained popularity was mainly cost.

As far as me running a chebby in my Olds, grow up, no-one asked your opinion and I don't remember seeing your name on my title nor are you footing the bills on my car.

67 442

FIFY

As far as me running a chebby in my Olds, grow up, no-one asked your opinion and I don't remember seeing your name on my title nor are you footing the bills on my car.

You are correct! If I were your car would have a rocket in it!

oldcutlass

Don, you are more than welcome to come down here and bring me a 455 to put in it, and hey, I'll proudly help and supply beer and a steak dinner. Let me know when you want to do it.

67 442

Didn't say I was, I said if I were.

If I had won the lotto last month I would be on my way!

rocketraider

Sad thing is that if it's sold, the new owner will likely cave and start selling ethanol.

Ethanol and ethyl gasoline share a common base ethyl compound C2H5, but that's where the similarities end. TEL bonds 4 of those ethyls to one part of lead to create Tetraethyl lead (C2H5)4Pb (tetra= four). Ethanol combines the ethyl base with a hydroxyl oxygenate OH to yield (C2H5)OH. Moonshine, in other words. Let 'em start taxing ethanol fuel at the same rates they tax liquor and see how long the stuff lasts in the market. Oh, that's right- it's a guvmink pet, so it will never be taxed, but it WILL be subsidized.

Compedgemarine's comment the EPA's answer was "don't care you don't pay us enough" says it all. It has always been a rogue agency with no real oversight or accountability, and has always done pretty much as it pleased unless public opinion against its actions reached revolutionary levels. And it's primary purpose has ALWAYS been to raise revenue in the form of fines. In that respect alone it is one of the most heinous government creations in history.

'Course if I were a guvmink wonk I'd enact a lot of useless legislation and regulation to justify my continued employment too.

compedgemarine

this is my biggest issue with the EPA. I am all for protecting the environment and understand that there has to be some regulations but when a department is given their level of power and absolutely no oversite or accountability to anyone then there is a problem. My father took over as president of Invader Boats in Texas years ago to help make it profitable so GE could sell it. The first couple of days there the EPA came in and told them they had to properly dispose of a bunch of drums acetone, etc within the week or face huge fines. when he went to the EPA main office to ask for more time due to the cost of disposal the answer was. "Sir, I am not here to help you, I am here to fine you when you don't do what we tell you." pretty much sums it up.

mid-life-olds

Hey Allan about the phase seperation....The AAA women in the video did mention that that stuff mixes at the pump! Another reason probably for the low number of gas stations that carry that stuff. I would assume that means they would have to have a different underground tank to hold that stuff and different kind of pumps than normal. I also would not be suprised to hear the goverment paid for every bit of the added equipment needed in order to sell this product that gains subsidies off the corn! But thats just my thoughts on the subject.

krooser

I don't have any issues with E-10 and doubt I will with E-15.

I have used E-85 in my newer cars and trucks many times without incident while on trips of 100 miles or more... it will trigger the check engine light around town but it goes out on the hwy. I mainly use it when the price differential is big... until this past year I could buy E-85 for 60-80 cents per gallon less than E-10. Right now I don't have a local dealer who sells it so I just use E-10.

I have never had an issue with it in my small engines (snowblower, lawnmower, chain saw, etc.) either.

My blown Hemi project F-100 will run on E-85.

Regarding "phase separation" I have my doubts. ....Back in the 60's we found that ethanol-based fuel line deicers DID NOT separate from the fuel like the standard methanol-based products did (Heet). I used to be a gas hauler and we never had to deal with it at the Cenex co-op stations I delivered to...

I remember when unleaded gas was the boogyman... many guys may remember how our engines were going to melt pistons, warp valves and have cherry red exhaust manifolds when that nasty unleaded hit the streets.