MDchanic

Just a heads-up:

Last weekend I bought a used engine from Don VanNest of Hillsborough, NJ.
He had two advertised on CraigsList.

I accept that I bought the engine as-is, and that that is my own problem, but I believe that he actively misinformed me about it, and so I am posting the information here.
I'm only out a couple of hundred bucks, so the money's no big deal, but the principle of the thing's got me really annoyed.

When I went to his barn to look at the motors, he told me that he had a lot of extra stuff that he'd been sitting on for a number of years, that he hadn't done much with it lately, and that he needed to celar out the stuff he wasn't ever going to use. The barn looked just as he said, with a few cars under covers, and a lot of parts lying around that looked like they hadn't been touched in years. There were a number of motors under covers, resting neatly on wood blocks on the floor.

I had initially come to look at a 350 with #5 heads that he said he'd pulled out of a wrecked '70 442 over 20 years ago. He said the motor had been a replacement after the owner had blown the 455. The motor was a 2bbl 350 with #5 heads, with a crank drilled for a manual transmission.
I was looking for something I could drop into my car with minimal work, to use while I properly build a 425 I've got apart.
The motor looked pretty good overall, but when I lay down and looked up into the exhaust ports, I could see no valves. He seemed surprised, looked around, and said he had no idea where the valves could have gone.

I turned my attention to a 2bbl 350 with #8 heads nearby.
He stated that about 20 years ago, his friend had driven a low-mileage '70s Delta up to the garage and he had pulled that engine from it, in good-running condition.
I noticed that the throttle butterflies appeared rusted, and asked him whether there was any chance that water had gotten into it, and he said, no, it had always been stored indoors, and under a cover, though, of course, it had been exposed to humidity in the air.

A closer look showed that it was a '73 motor, and looked very complete and original. I tried to turn it by hand and couldn't, then realized I'd forgotten my breaker bar and socket. He said he hadn't thought to bring his either.
He was very clear that he had pulled the motor and left it to sit.

I bought the motor and brought it home. Once there, I squirted penetrating oil in the cylinders and left it for a couple of days.
I gave it a good cleaning, then got it onto a stand and tried to give it a good turn, but no go. I started taking it apart, and noted that all of the hoses said GM on them, and the spark plug wires were dated '73.

Upon disassembly, I found that it was frozen because of one badly rusted cylinder, which looked as though it had been full of water (rust trails down the cylinder wall into the crankcase).
I also found:

• It had no intake manifold gasket,
• It had no head gaskets,
• The oil pan was bolted on finger tight, and
• The main bearing caps were bolted on finger tight

all of which would appear to indicate that he had disassembled it (due to its being frozen), knew darn well what was wrong with it, and reassembled it for quick sale.

Frustratingly, the other seven bores are pristine, with clear crosshatching the length of the cylinders, and the crank bearing shells and journal surfaces look fantastic.

As I am not looking for another project, I am done with this motor now.

I just wanted to let everyone know to beware of this seller, and consider that what appears to be may not be what is.

He could have gotten nearly as much for this motor as scrap as he did from me, but he chose to sell it to me anyway.

I am disgusted.

- Eric

nj_cutlass72

thanks for the heads up, he's not that far from me so I'll make sure to steer clear!

MDchanic

Yeah - I've got no problem losing a gamble, but being told it ran well and was stored dry, and finding out it had been completely disassembled and been full of water is over the line.

Oh, I forgot, it also has a valve rusted open on that cylinder

- Eric

59-59-59

[QUOTE=MDchanic;400648
I accept that I bought the engine as-is[/QUOTE]

This is what I'll never understand. 'AS IS' doesn't imply your getting a warranty and 'AS IS' does not mean stories attached to a part or engine is true. YOUR problem was not bringing a socket/ ratchet to turn the engine and YOUR problem was not opening it up to see what was exactly inside a 35+ year old engine. ''Well it looked good'" doesn't mean anything. Who really is at fault here?

slantflat

I agree it is Eric's fault for not checking it out better. He told us that himself. That does not give the seller the right to blatantly lie about what he's selling. Who'd win in court? Probably the seller. And who'd get a '73 2bbl 350 with #8 heads through his front window? Again.....

Come on Eric, let's go get him.

raddios

i just sold mine real cheap 455 with approx 8000 miles before i rebuilt same story a guy in indiana full of it i paid 1300. dollars 8 years ago for rebuilding but this thing was powerfull got to open eyes some tmes thanks for advice AL in chicago

Rickman48

Did you call him and give him a chance to do anything about it??

MDchanic

I e-mailed him (politely).

He said (politely) that he said as-is, and maybe his memory hadn't been that good.

If our positions had been reversed, and I had sold it and legitimately forgotten that it actually hadn't run and that I'd completely disassembled it, I would have offered him all or part of his money back, based on the fact that I had given him bad information.

But that's because I'm honest and care about the state of the hobby.

I'm not trying to whine about it here - just letting everyone in the area who might run into him know that he's very low-key and convincing, and that they need to take what he says with a degree of skepticism.

- Eric

ps: and, yes, I did consider leaving it on a nice soft spot on his lawn, where he'd have a hard time picking it up, but that would just be even more time wasted, and it's not that big a deal.

507OLDS

I've been through that scenario before.I bought a 69 455 that was inside a huge warehouse,and was "stored inside for many years". Well,the whole inside was solid rust.It wasn't any different than buying one out of a junkyard.At least with the those,I expect them to be weathered & stuck.I have been at the otehr end of this as well.I bought a 70 Delta with a 455,and drove the car 30 miles home.It ran fine,with no apparent issues.I ended up selling that engine,based on what I knew of it.When the buyer took it apart,he found that it was eating itself.The crank was bady scored,and the bearings chewed-up.I took it upon myself to make it right,and sent the buyer another crank,and all was good.Since then,I try to take all my engines apart,before selling,just to make sure all is good.I know an engine might look more atractive if it together,rather than scattered,but at least you know what you have.I did the same for Jay,when he came down last weekend,to buy a 455 shortblock.I tore it all down,so we both knew what was what,and nothing was hiding.I know some of us like to buy a running engine,or a rebuilt engine,to simply install in a car.Whether it is running or not,anything you buy that is mechanical,you are buying a chance.It's a roll of the dice.That is also why I like to label all of my stuff as a "core",running or not.What you do with it is up to you.
I have a 350 that was running when I pulled it last July.I do not have any other history on it,so once again,it's a chance.It might be mint inside,or it could be sludged-up,and ready to self-destruct.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

That sucks eric,

Why are you replacing the engine in your '73? I thought it was running fine with the carb rebuild.

MDchanic

I agree completely with all you said, and I would just emphasize that the above portion is the whole point:
He DID have it apart and DID know what was inside.
If he hadn't, I would have nothing bad to say.

Last year I bought a running 425 from a guy who got it in a Cutlass he wanted to restore. It had good compression in 7 of 8 cylinders. He said he knew nothing about it.
When I got it apart, someone had replaced the rings with a set that were too thin and EVERY top ring was broken.
I wasn't mad at him. I took my chance, and that's okay.

It's running okay, Tony, but it's a 260 from a '78 Cutlass and the Delta can't get out of it's own way.

I'm slowly getting it together to redo the 425, but I had hoped to throw something more peppy in for the time being.

- Eric

droptopron

Eric said he could have done more due dilligence but there is no excuses to be made for a disingenuous seller. Its one thing not to know, another thing to knowfully & willingly misrepresent.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

I find it's a real gamble especially on our side of the coast when it comes to used engines. Mind you, it's still compeltely un-honorable when someone sells you something they KNOW is a boat anchor..

When i bought my cutlass, i knew the guy was an idiot, and i took a huge gamble on the engine, but it's running fine so far...

Maybe try one of the members on our forum,

Brian, dont you have some engines handy?

MDchanic

I'd say the guy who, when given a chance to tell the truth, or at least claim not to remember, said something that was provably false...
... That is, unless our morality has shifted to make those things okay now.

(And, 59, if you really wonder about the answer to that question, and believe that "suckers get what they deserve," I'll leave a little note to myself to avoid buying from you).

Thanks, Tony, I would, but I'm not really looking, just happened across this one and was going to be in the neighborhood to pick it up anyway, so I took a chance.

I've got enough stuff to work on now as it is .

- Eric

bkeese

I sent my "was running" 350 to the scrap yard instead of dealing with these headackes. 12 cents a pound and they didn't care if it was frozen or not.

allyolds68

You didn't drive from Maine to New Jersey to pick up that POS, did you? If so I'd be more pissed about the wasted trip than the money

sammy

Too bad about your experience Eric.

Is it that frigging hard to be honest? The most simple process known to mankind? Not in my world baby!!!

Ted.

MDchanic

I would have been, too, but I wouldn't have driven that far for a questionable motor.

I was going down to visit family in NJ anyway, and was driving my pickup, as I am going to be bringing a refrigerator back with me, so no big deal that way.

It's the principle of the thing, really.

Oh, I just got those pistons freed up - looks like someone took a grinder to one cylinder wall to make the rust go away.

- Eric

Tony72Cutlass'S'

I guess sleeves are out of the question since you really just wanted something you could drop in eh?

I guess you'd also need a new set of pistons Too.. That sounds pretty bad.

Nilsson

Personally I would have chalked it up as a loss and not posted it.

MDchanic

I did chalk it up as a loss.

But this guy has a lot of other stuff, and it seemed appropriate to advise members of this forum, so that if they should encounter him, they could go into it with their eyes open.

I thought that giving specific advice was what this forum was for.

- Eric

MDchanic

I've already got a different 350 block in great shape, so there's no point, really.

- Eric

frankr442

I appreciate the post. It gives people in the area a "heads up". The seller deserves a couple hundred dollars worth of negative advertising. Also allows the poster to non-violently vent frustration. Nothing wrong with a little satisfaction after getting burned.

Redog

Heard stories about that guy. He sells a lot on the Philly and NY CL's all the time.

He's in Hillsbourgh, NJ, my ex in laws live in Hillsbourgh, NJ, I went out with a weird girl who lived in Hillsbourgh, NJ (orginally from LA, CA, but I think it was more the Hillsbourgh thing).

Bottom line, I trust NOBODY from Hillsbourgh, NJ

aliensatemybuick

You bought a motor that was said to have been lying around for 20 years and didn't bring a breaker bar to check it out. And the guy MUST be a liar for not remembering the full story behind each motor he had. Sorry, but I for one am inclined to sympathize more with the seller, who's name has been dragged through the mud here, possibly unfairly.

slantflat

Damn dude, you'll say anything, won't you. The guy was certain it was good when he was selling it, the engine showed signs of being apart when Eric was taking it apart, other people have said he is of questionable integrity, yet you have to pipe up and drag Eric's name through the mud.

aliensatemybuick

What, did we get into an argument before or something? I'll say anything, won't I? No, but I'll offer my opinion when I feel like it, just like anyone else. Other people have said the guy is of questionable integrity? I missed that, though I did see someone else post that they "heard stories" about the guy, whatever that means (and whatever its worth). The first two words in the title of this thread say it all "BUYER BEWARE". That applies in all cases and with all sellers.

aliensatemybuick

THIS MOTOR, advertised as needing a complete rebuild:

http://cnj.craigslist.org/pts/2985778796.html

dingusboy

BUYER BEWARE might be the rule, but I appreciate Eric's candor in sharing his experience. When you are a person of honor, you expect others to act the same. Eric has offered spot on advice to me and many there on this sight. At some point you toss in your money and take your chances. Eric isn't complaining about the money, he is cautioning others and providing the basis for his assertion.

If you want to buy from this seller, by all means... But, you might want to weigh Eric's info.

csouth

That means nothing, the ad could have been edited after Eric was there. Editing an ad on Craigslist does not change the original posting date.

The bottom line is if a seller is unsure of the condition he should state as much.

Eric, thanks for sharing you experience.

aliensatemybuick

Actually, it means a LOT; even if he didn't say it in the original ad, it means if he learned something, he's willing to disclose it (and thus not quite the LIAR he's been accused of being).

Lets see the original ad from when he was selling both motors. I see the beginning of the original ad using "searchallcraigs", but the full listing is no longer available as it was deleted in lieu of his selling the remaining engine. A cached version may yet be retrievable.

csouth

The right thing for him to do would have been to offer some money back with a price being closer to a core. I had this happen to me when I sold an intake manifold that had a crack in it. the buyer brought it back and showed it to me. I discounted the price for necessary repair.

firefrost gold

isn't 300 asking a core price?

csouth

I guess it depends on your location and the seller. I've seen them in the Detroit area for $350 running. For a lot of people the 350 Olds is not a desirable motor. If you're lucky enough to find one in a junkyard, most v8's go for $250. Anything I get from a junkyard I take the metality that it is a core.

coppercutlass

i paid 150 for a great core . that all it needed was re ring and hone.

MDchanic

Here you go:

"I have 2 olds rocket V8 350 block code 395558 2 engines for sale.One has # 5 heads & the other has # 8 heads.That one has the TH-350 also. Both should be rebuilt to be sound. Both were running fine as stock applications. One has all of the accessory brackets also. Each can be sold separetly for $300.00. OBO. "

Yes, "both should be rebuilt to be sound." This is a standard disclaimer. We all know that.

But also, "Both were running fine as stock applications."

Except, "Gee, I forgot that I took all of the valves out of one, then bolted it back together, and forgot that I completely disassembled the other, then attacked the deep rust inside one cylinder with a grinder."

Hey, I'm not getting any younger. We all forget things. But not everything.

Like I said, I don't complain about losing a bet - I'm simply alerting others about how "flexible" language is to one particular guy.

- Eric

aliensatemybuick

Sounds to me like you've blamed the guy for your own wishful thinking that you could buy a motor for a couple hundred bucks that had sat around for 20+ years and expect to drop it in and run it, EVEN when the seller said in his original ad that it would need to be rebuilt (apparently an insufficient disclaimer for you).

You get that backed up toilet you were yammering about on the phone the whole time while looking at the motor taken care of yet?

allyolds68

I'm a pretty "buyer beware" kind of person but if the guy told Eric this he's a liar.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

This makes me want to pull my stock 350 and rebuild it and not even bother with engine cores from other people.

OLD SKL 69

Sorry to hear about that Eric, thanks for posting it here. Are you going to use that other 350 and put it in the Delta or wait until the 425 is finished?