citcapp

ME thinks is time to get a bigger fire extinguisher. I have a small one but after Jamsbo's experience with his H/O maybe its not big enough for a stubborn fire. What size is recommended?

Do we have an expert on the site? Chime in as nobody wants to be in the position Jamsbo was in.

Lady72nRob71

I know something with a hose attached would be manatory. I saw a lot of less expensive ones out there without a hose, so if the fire was under the dash, you would almost be out of luck. Murphy's law, says that fire likes to start in remote, secluded places.
An A, B, and C rated one would be good, too. Many of the cheapos are not rated for all fires; a car needs all three.

If you do not want to add a battery kill switch for originality's sake, keep a small bolt cutter next to the extinguisher to be able to cut the negative battery cables in a dire situation. Have the car towed home and do not reconnect battery until the cause of the problem is found.

I am still pondering what wires shorted on Jamesbo's car and WHY. Most of the wires that go across the dash are fuse protected. Are the fuses rated too high? I feel like running some experiments at home to simulate shorts of factory wiring (out of the car and house that is...)

Olds64

Definitely an A, B, C fire extinguisher.

MN71W30

What was the source of Jamesbo's short circuit?
When my W30 burned this spring it was the main alternator wire pinched in the bellhousing. The insulation give it a time bomb effect. Slowly it wears it down until it shorts out. A fuse rated just over capacity of the alternater in series would have saved alot of trouble.

cutlassgal

I'm going to be getting a bigger extinguisher too! I have a little one now.

Jamesbo

Me too Rob,

But you and Pat are the experts. Today, I'm Monday morning quarter backing thinking maybe I should have opened the glove box to see if I could have thrown some extinguishing stuff down. I dunno, I just dunno.

I keep thinking there was something running along from about where the radio is that was too flamable. the only thing I can think of is the antenna wire that was a repo [most likely Chinesium] and the coating caught fire and wouldn't go out.

You can add antenna wire to you list of experiments.

Did ya'll catch Olds luvr post? http://www.h3rperformance.com/halguard_products.htm

Perhaps my misfortune and ya'll's electrical acumen will help save another one from going up in smoke. Good idea Pat and Rob Thanks

Lady72nRob71

Jamesbo, you mentioned the first flame under the lighter. Can you give a precise location of where you saw the other flame? What side of the glove box? Close to the front or further back? Did you have the right value fuses installed?
Did you have the A/C or radio on?
Can you look through the charred mess to see if you see any wires pinched if the dash was ever removed / reinstalled? I question the big orange hot wire, as it runs that way for the glove box light, under dash courtesy lights and lighter.

The antenna wire could have only ignited on its own if certain ground wires broke, making the outer shield ground the main conductorbetween radio / dash / and body (fender). How does the antenna wire look under the fender?
Sure, the outside of that wire is plastic, but it should not burn rapidly if the inner shield was NOT the cause.
I wish I was there to look at it...

Jamesbo

Radio Off
8 track not wired in
A/C on for a few seconds about 2 miles before smoke

I keep thinking about the High fan a/c fuse under the hood.

I'll go down there again today to put a cover on it [If it's dried out.] and see if I can tell anything

I would have to "guess" the short was from a wire coming off the a/c fan switch. I thought I had that one put out. The next one was coming from between the back of the radio between the glove box. I don't have a CM here with me but, I know you've got the courtesy light to the glove box and the antenna wire [that's obviously not hot] and all the duct work.

The passager side rear corner of the hood and the plastic antenna base are the only thing front of the firewall that is damaged. Like the fire got inside the duct work or caught the antenna wire coating on fire which ignited the duct work.

citcapp

Electrical fires are different then in that when the short occurs it just keeps getting hotter until the wire burns through completely (think hot plate element) so that just putting water or retardant on the fire will only cool it. The minute you stop spraying the wire heats up and starts the fire again. You have to disconnect the battery no other way to stop it, that or you get lucky and the wire breaks do to the heat and the fire stops.

In several cars I have owned, previous owners made after market connection direct to a the positive battery block at the battery not using any fuses at all. Or they use a number 16 gauge wire with a 30 amp fuse and the wire burns up before the fuse blows


#8 wire 40 amp fuse
#10 wire 30 amp fuse
#12 wire 20 amp fuse
#14 wire 15 amp fuse
#16 wire 10 amp fuse
#18 wire 5 amp fuse
#20 wire 1 amp fuse

Get the picture. This same problem has caused houses to burn down as well. I have down several insurance investigations on electrical fires in homes and the installation of oversized breakers to electrical circuits have caused more then one fire.

ROCKET VAPOR

I bought a 2.5 lbs. Halotron 1 extinguisher from the place that Jamesbo posted. I hope that I never need to use it though.

http://www.h3rperformance.com/halguard_products.htm

BTW, James what happened to your '69 H/O? I guess I was asleep and did not hear what happened.

Jamesbo

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...-you-sick.html

Lady72nRob71

If this applies to cars also (current is current, right?), then most of my 72's fuses are over sized. 20ga off a 10A fuse (tranny), 16ga from a 25A fuse (heater fan / clk, lighter, ctsy), etc.
The fuses would protect against a sudden dead short, where the fuse can blow before the wire heats up.
If the load is constant, too much for the wire, but below the fuse rating, then fire can occure.

Makes me wonder if I should replace the high Amperage fast acting fuses with lower amperage slow-blows...

When going aftermarket, bigger properly routed wires and properly sized fuses are required.


Jamesbo - what fan speed were you running on the A/C? I thing the high speed wiring is all outside under the hood. The low speeds are off the fuse block.

citcapp

Motor loads such as the heater motor require oversized fuses to handle the starting load of the motor (motor draws higher current when first coming up to speed. Its common to see higher fuse sizes in these circuits. In later model cars you now see many more fuses and circuits because of this problem and most motor circuits such as heater blowers, power tops, power windows, etc are on separate circuits. Not so in older cars.

You also get heat transfer in bundled wires (several wires taped together) if one wire gets hot it transfer heat to the adjacent wire and so on.

In the National electrical code there is a derating factor for bundled wires. Meaning that if a certain number of wires are bundled together then the current carrying capacity of each wire is reduced by a percent factor.

I am sure that the same should hold true for automobile wiring.

msco123

I was working on one of my cars the other day and somehow shorted the power line to my radio. The wire got red hot and set the insulation on fire and it burnt like gasoline as it burnt down the wire. I could not beat it out, it burnt too fast and too hot..Fortunately, the wire was choked down when it reached a clamp holding it to a metal frame. This wire was isolated. If it had reached an area with a lot of other wires or something combustible, I would probably had a fire like Jamesbro had. I purchased fire extinguishers for my cars today but, after seeing how quickly this wire burned, I question how quickly you could bring a fire under control considering how long it would take you to pull an extinguisher out to use it.

Boldsmobile

Length of wire also impacts size that should be used.

Olds luvr

Well after all of this I will for sure look into buying the halgaurd system. My car is not original and a switch or quick release will get added. maybe in the interior or should it be outside? After all of the electrical work I have just completed under the dash and heat shrinking connectors where needed I am now a little worried. my car is not the caliber or rarity of the H/O so for me if mine burnt to the ground no big deal as long as no one is hurt as the car is over insured.

What I was thinking guys is I would be willing to get ahold of Halgaurd and try to put together a group buy for the members on the forum and see what we can do to save costs and potentialy our cars and lives. It does not have to be the halgaurd but any brand that will do the job. I have just heard good things about them is all and not pushing any brand I just want to see all of us protected as much as possible and keep our cars and members as safe as possible

Hairy Olds

I still have halon in my cars but that's not available anymore so I have Halotron in my garage. Halotron is a environmentally friendly and clean product as it deprives the fire on oxygen.

Lady72nRob71

msco123, you were lucky - I am glad it did not end in tragedy.


Things look even uglier when you look at the datasheet for the fuses.
Take for example, the common glass AGC "fast acting" fuses that are available locally.
http://www.cooperbussmann.com/pdf/b0...fe85202786.pdf

A 30A fuse will blow in 100 seconds when 42A of current is applied.
55A applied to the same fuse will make it blow in 10 seconds.
90A applied to the same fuse will make it blow in 1 second.

A 15A fuse will blow in 100 seconds when 20A of current is applied.
23A applied to the same fuse will make it blow in 10 seconds.
33A applied to the same fuse will make it blow in 1 second.

So I can predict what would happen to those 16ga wires with that much current flowing through them for more than a few seconds.

A blower motor that is drawing excess current due to internal failure or partial seizure can present a dangerous situation. I need to get an old blower and run some experiments on it...

ROCKET VAPOR

Good made in America quality battery disconnet switch for very little coin. I have one of their top post disconnects on my '70 442, and one of their side post disconnects on my '70 Chevelle SS.

John at Redline Gauge and Clock Repair talked me into getting these after he repaired my clocks in both cars.

Top post disconnect switch
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Side post disconnect switch
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

citcapp

I have been researching this all morning and I agree the Halotron is the way to go and that's what I will be purchasing this week it does not destroy the car the way chemical fire extinguishers do. Read up on the pros and cons.

Also remember to have your extinguishers recharges as shown on the labels otherwise you might think you have one but it won't work when you need it. They do not last forever.

Olds luvr

Pat, what made you choose the Halatron over the Halgaurd? The Halgaurd is not corosive either. I ask because probaly like all of us we want to go out and get one. Like I said I would be willing to try to set up a group buy for all members if wanted

lshlsh2

In my 68 the voltage reg went kablewie while I was driving down the road at night. The wiring burnt through before I got a chance to do anything. I was too busy getting my 3yearold daughter out of her car seat in the back. It ended up ok and needed some rewiring and a new voltage reg.

A quick disconnect and a larger fire extinguisher are going into my 71. The one I have is to small I think.

Larry

citcapp

Very similar systems, without doing a detailed price check looks like both will do the job. Price points and local access would make the difference.

No real preference here

Olds luvr

Thanks Pat!!

cutlassgal

This is scary! I don't understand all that talk about wires and fuses... now I worry cause that fuse blew in my car. I'm gonna get one of those side post disconnect things for the battery. Is that one on the e-bay link a good one? I would be interested in getting a group buy on a good extinguisher. I see around here you can get the Halguard at Summit.

Jamesbo

Sandy,

Don't feel pregnant about it. When it comes to wiring. Talking electrical with Pat and Rob is like getting in the ring with 2 Mohamad Ali's

The post disconnet thing-a-ma jig I have [on another car of course] visually sticks out like a diamond up a goats A$$. But I guess it's worth it. Ask Allan what Judges think about it. I almost made it to my first car show before the fickle finger of fate took over.

Olds luvr

James, all it means is a delay in the first show, You will be back in action for the one this time next year.

cutlassgal

You crack me up Jamesbo!! A diamond up a goat's a$$, lol!! You would think the judges would understand something like that on an old car, but I'm sure Blue will chime in and tell me. He's good like that and helps me! I'm gonna get one, and a better extinguisher too. Right now I have a small Kidde extinguisher that's for AB&C I think. Blue will have to put the thing on my battery though, cause I don't mess with batteries cause they scare me!!

Jamesbo

There's really nothing to it. But I'm sur Allan will help ya out.

Bluevista

The first thing I did when I put your car in my garage was disconnect the battery Sandy.
I've been using those battery disconnects for 25 years and have never heard a bad word from a judge, they normally don't pop you for safety items. Be the same as taking off points for seat belts or a dual master cylinder in an older car IMO. Plus you can take it off fast enough.
The only time my battery switch is turned on is when I'm driving , first thing I do at shows or anywhere I park is open the hood and shut off the juice. I unscrew the **** and put it in my pocket for safekeeping at some places..
You can put that on Sandy, it goes on the negative terminal of the battery, remember to get a side post type.
Just bat your eyes and beg with your southernish accent at the Olds show and some chump...I mean gentleman will put it on for you.

ROCKET VAPOR

Sandy, I have had these disconnects from this vendor on both of my '70s for a year now, with no problems. One half of a turn and the car is completely dead. Makes for a good security system to boot. Just snug-up the black **** from time to time.

Summit Racing is the cheapest place I found to get the Halguard. I have a 2.5 lbs. in my '70 SS, and after all of this I WILL be buying another one, to keep in my 442.

WTony

My guess is once the first little bit of firewall insulation went up and he hit it with the fire extinguisher, it blew some of the burning insulation to the other side of the dash and caught more on the other side on fire? The outside being burned might be because thats where the air intake is for the outside vents on an AC car?
There's no current running thru the actual antenna wire so that shouldnt be the issue. Unless your talking about a rear power antenna wire grounding out?

cutlassgal

[quote=Bluevista;196760]The first thing I did when I put your car in my garage was disconnect the battery Sandy.
I've been using those battery disconnects for 25 years and have never heard a bad word from a judge, they normally don't pop you for safety items. Be the same as taking off points for seat belts or a dual master cylinder in an older car IMO. Plus you can take it off fast enough.
The only time my battery switch is turned on is when I'm driving , first thing I do at shows or anywhere I park is open the hood and shut off the juice. I unscrew the **** and put it in my pocket for safekeeping at some places..
You can put that on Sandy, it goes on the negative terminal of the battery, remember to get a side post type.
Just bat your eyes and beg with your southernish accent at the Olds show and some chump...I mean gentleman will put it on for you.
quote]



You make me laugh!!! I have ordered that side post one from that e-bay link. I can't help it if batteries scare me. They always have, lol! I remember seeing that disconnect on your GTO last summer in Warren and asking you what it was.

Pul-ese suh.... would y'all be so kind as ta put the disconnect on ma battry??

cutlassgal

Thanks for the links!! I ordered one. I'll have to get over to Summit in Tallmadge and get one of those extinguishers too.

Jamesbo.... What kind of fire extinguisher did you have and how big was it??

Ranzan

I am most certainly going with all new painless wiring once I get to that stage.............mine isn`t #s correct and I sure as crap don`t want to lose it to a fire ......

Jamesbo

I don't remember who made it. It's a charded heap on the floor board right now.

This morning it occurred to me. Along with a good fire extinguisher. I think it would be wise to have a good mental plan and some practice. This may sound silly but if I had done a little practice and planning, I wouldn't be in this mess.

Kinda like the drills you did in school and are SPOSE TO DO IN YOUR HOME.

Pat and I remember duck and cover drills in case the Russians send over a nuke.[ It should have been called duck and kiss you butt goodbye] We also had fire drills and tornado drillls when I was a pup.

So my sugggestion de jour would be, take a few minutes to learn how to operated your new fire extinguisher. You won't have time to read the directions in the event of an emergency.

Make a list of what you would do like;

1] Get passangers [and or animals] out of the car.
2] Open hood
3] Disconnet battery [Sandy you can do it I promise] NAPA sells a small flat rachet wrench just for this purpose.
4] Extinguish fire.

If you practiced it a few times it would become second nature. Jump out, yank open the hood, disconnet battery, pull pin on extinguisher, put out fire.

Contrary to popular belief Practice doesn't make "Perfect" practice makes "Permanent"

We practice golf, tennis, and shooting to be better. Why not take a few minutes to practice saving our Olds.

citcapp

Good advice Jamsbo, and yes I do remember those drills. My desk was not very good cover from a nuke

stevengerard

Is there a battery quick disconnect that can mounted in the floor near the drivers seat. My issue (and I am sure others have) is the W25 hood can be a bear to open - those precious seconds can turn into minutes and the car is burned.

Destructor

I was making up a battery pack for the radio receiver in one of my model battleships using 4 NiCad’s, 6 volts total. The two wires crossed for not even 1 second. The entire harness instantly went up in smoke and all the insulation melted. This wasn't continuous current just a quick swipe of one bare end hitting the other. The propulsion plant uses a 12 volt 7 amp source. While in dry dock I disconnect the negative cable. there are few things more devastating than a fire aboard ship. When my car is not in use pull the negative cable, but I should get a switch.

lshlsh2

A plan is a good idea. A guess with a convertible with top down you just bail anywhere you can one advantage I guess. I know when I was trying to get my daughter out of my old 68 I was wishing for a four door.

Thanks for the links for the quick disconnects I just ordered one.
Larry