KathleenF

For several weeks, I have been trying to get to the bottom of this problem... a massive fuel leak in the 2 jet rochester carb on our 1961 Dynamic 88. A ton of gas was pouring out the top, through the gaskets, bottom, everywhere.

I had found a new mechanic who works with old cars who came over and looked at it. He had me buy a rebuild kit. He rebuilt the carb, put it back on, only to find that the problem was exactly the same. So he worked with it a bit, it became much better (smaller leak areas) but he could not get it to stop all together. He talked to his buddies which said that the fuel pump was too large for the carb, so he had me buy a smaller one....that seemed to fix the problem, with only a slight area seeping where the carb was mounted. I didn't love that, but in comparison, it seemed pretty good. Plus the car was just running great. So, despite my somewhat paranoid fire fears, I decided that things were all together a lot better.

Yesterday, I finally decided to drive it to the store. It started right up, then died. On the second attempt, it just didn't want to start again. My husband took off the air cleaner and sure enough....a massive amount of gas was all over the carb and pouring down on the ground. We are back to sqare one.

The mechanic (I just called him) says my carb is junk, and I need to buy a new one for $450...which is about what I have into this whole mess already. Everything I read says that this is a very simple carburetor and should be an easy fix..... not likely to be totally trash. I sure don't want to buy a new one if I don't need to, since I have already bought a rebuild kit as well as a fuel pump, neither of which I apparently needed .....

I am getting depressed! Any ideas???

Kathleen

Oldsmaniac

Possibly a different carb may not be a bad idea...Check Ebay for a new or used carb.... I see them there often for less than 100 bucks. Perhaps there is a float problem (hole) or mis-adjustment. Maybe there is a casting plug leaking or just dirt that is causing the needle to not seat properly causing flooding randomly.... I have a 2bbl carb on a manifold that came with my 59 98. I dont know vintage or if its any good but will sell it cheap if you can use it. It was supposed to have been rebuilt but not run. I would doubt a stock fuel pump can cause too much pressure for the carb.

rocketraider

Kathleen, get a kit that is designed for use with ethanol fuels. My gut feeling is the stuff is deteriorating your carb's rubber internals causing flooding.

I hate the stuff. We had a report at work this morning that Stihl is recalling yard equipment from 2002-present due to ethanol fuels screwing up the fuel cap causing leaks and fires.

Now, when this equipment was designed, spec'd and produced, ethanol was not part of the equation and there were no problems. Now we have ethanol-poisoned fuels and problems like this are cropping up all over- with cars, and especially with boats and small power equipment that worked absolutely fine before the introduction of high ethanol content gasoline.

So I ask- WHAT IS THE REAL PROBLEM?

69442C

While I am not familiar with that particular carburetor, a few things come to mind. If you can get your hands on a fuel pressure test gauge, check the pressure coming to the carb. Disconnect the fuel line to the carb and adapt it to the pressure gauge. Crank the engine (or let it idle) and see how much pressure you are getting. It should be around 5-6 PSI. If you find this is OK, you'll know that it's not the fuel pump over pressuring the needle and seat in the carb.

The next thing that would seem to be causing this is that the needle and seat in the carb is not closing and is continuing to allow fuel to just flood the carb. This could be a problem with the needle and seat or it could be an issue with the float assembly. The float risies and falls with the level of fuel in the carb and when it rises up (carb getting full) the float is supposed to push the needle into the seat to prevent more feul from entering the carb. If the float has a hole in it and fills with fuel, it now will not float (its a sinker) and the needle will not close off on the seat. If the float is OK, it's possible that the float is hanging up for some reason and causing the same problem. If the fuel pump test showed higher than recommended pressure, then the pump could cause the needle to be pushed away from the seat and the same problem could happen.

With the amount of fuel that you describe leaking out of the carb, it has to be something with the needle and seat being caused by one of the problems mentioned above. A crack in the carb or a missing gasket could also cause a massive leak but given how yours sounds, I don't think that's the type of problem you have. But you'll need to check that too.

In any event, you can't be too careful with this since the risk of fire is great. If you need to disable the spark or coil and just spin the engine with the starter until you feel the problem is solved, do so to keep the car and/or your house from burning. Have a good fire extinguisher handy too. And find a new mechanic!!

slowdime

look for a rebuilt one on ebay

dont ever let that mechanic work on your car again

joe_padavano

Was the carb float replaced during the rebuild? Modern fuels attach plastic floats and metal floats can leak. Either case will cause flooding as you describe. Also, as suggested above, install a fuel pressure gauge and verify pressure before spending any money on new parts.

69442C

"He talked to his buddies which said that the fuel pump was too large for the carb, so he had me buy a smaller one....that seemed to fix the problem, with only a slight area seeping where the carb was mounted."

As I re-read your post, this comment caused me to wonder if your car was using an electric fuel pump. Does the car have an electric fuel pump or just the original style engine driven mechanical pump? If it is electric, many of these pumps produce higher pressures than the original mechanical pumps and often require a pressure regulator to keep the pressure in an acceptable range. Please clarify the type of pump you are using and test the pressure to the carb before doing anything else.

stan 65 cutlass

x2 on the sunk float idea

oldcutlass

x3 on the float!!

KathleenF

Hi Guys,
Thanks for all the great replies! I feel better just having people who know these cars comment.

I am bummed that this guy isn't working out. He was just what I was looking for....cheerful, friendly, honest and enthusiastic about working on the old cars. And he has been into old cars his whole life, and goes to our local shows so it is important that I don't upset him....

First the fuel pump. It was an old style, non-electric mechanical pump. Originally, he had me buy a fuel pressure regulator, which didn't work at all and I have to take back...and probably fight to get my money back. So he went to his friend at a racing shop and he told him to get a small electric one, which goes to only 3.5 psi. That seemed to solve the problem...until it didn't.
Now I am concerned that if I buy a new carb, that this smaller one is going to be a new problem, but he insists that it will not be. What do you guys think?

I talked to him last night, very diplomatically, and all of you guys were my brother (I figured that he would rather I talk to one person in my family than a whole board of folks!) and discussed what you had written. He basically said that it didn't matter if it was the float, needle and seat, etc. The carb was junk and dangerous, and I could put it in a box to give to a potential future owner who was a purist (like I kinda am...) and buy a reconditioned Holly or Delco Remi carb that wasn't going to burn the car up, with us potentially inside. Hard to argue with that logic, when you are already on the paranoid side! He is really going out of his way to research, etc. I know he feels bad about all this....but it just sucks to not believe in his ability now.

He won't charge me to put the new one on, so now I am leaning towards making him happy and keeping good will in the car club for my dad's sake.
If I do decide to get a new/used carb....can anyone suggest one that will fit the screw holes and work without an adaptor plate? Basically he is telling me that this particular Rochester is not one I want to buy again.

I thank you all so much for all your input, I have really been upset about all this...and I want to drive this car again!!!

Kathleen

joe_padavano

Sorry, but that tells me that he has no clue about carbs. The float, needle, and seat are all easily replaceable parts that cost a fraction of the cost of a new carb (and parts that SHOULD be replaced in the course of a rebuild). His response tells me that either 1) he doesn't understand how to rebuild a carb, 2) he doesn't want to be bothered with fixing the actual problem, or 3) he makes a profit on parts he sells, and there's more profit on a $300 rebuilt carb than a $9 float.

KathleenF

Joe, I am guessing it is number 2. I would be buying the reconditioned one from a local chain store, so he doesn't make any money from it. But I imagine the idea of bolting on a new one is getting to be pretty alluring for him about now.

He seems to think that this particular carb has a dangerous design flaw. Honestly I can't really remember exactly what he was saying, something regarding the fumes being sent out the side of the carb? He says that with any other carb that the fire danger would be zero, which of course...sounds good to me. But, in the end I really feel that he doesn't want to mess with it again. He has been really nice about it all, and hasn't charged for coming back three more times. He said he wasn't going to have us pay for anything more until he got this problem fixed, but I think that idea is wearing thin, and he just doesn't want to look at it again.

Today my husband is off work and going to open it up and see if he can see what the problem is. I hope it is somthing glaringly obvious....and maybe I can take pictures.

Thanks again,
Kathleen

stan 65 cutlass

sounds like he may not have replaced the needle and seat when he rebuilt it the first time, let alone looked at the float.

B964

Exhaust heat riser stuck closed? It will overheat the intake/carb and with today's fuel will boil it over.
I had the exact same problem you have and wiring the heat riser flap open stopped the flooding. Would run great untill warmed up then... massive flooding.

Oldsmaniac

It seems like you are swallowing and digesting some of his verb. There are no design flaws built into that carb. He is making excuses and then throwing the fire risk out there to make you agree with him. Anyone with basic tools can swap a carb. Find someone else. I would be willing to look at your problematic carb for free...

KathleenF

Oldsmaniac, yes....you are absolutely right. The combination of not wanting to **** off a nice enough guy that runs in the same circles and really not knowing anything about this stuff is putting me at a distinct disadvantage, and making me want to throw in the towel and agree with him....BUT...

My husband just took the carb top off and sure enough...the float is filled with fuel. If you shake it, you can hear it sloshing and it is very heavy. Even to my layman eye, this seems..... not good. I am going to call Napa and see if they can get me a new one, it is sure worth a try.

Interesting that there is nothing wrong with this carb, I feel like he will say anything to get me to change it at this point.

Stan, I can see now that he has replaced the needle and a lot of other things, but it appears he never even glanced at the float, and didn't shake it, that's for sure.

The saga continues....thanks so much, you guys.
Kathleen

69442C

It sounds to me as if this person, while well intentioned, doesn't really understand what he is doing with the carb and now that there is a problem with his work, he wants to make it go away. The suggestion to use a completely different carb probably stems from him not wanting you to see one that works correctly as it would raise the question as to why he couldn't fix yours. Don't get caught up in his attempts to scare you. See what you find when the carb is opened up and if it's not something you and your husband are comfortable with, there are companies/people out there who can get it squared away. I don't recall where early 60's Oldsmobiles were buring up all the time due to a carb design flaw. Just complete nonsense.

Oldsmaniac

BRAVO!! You have found the problem, get the float and just make sure its not set too high and your carb will be fixed.

KathleenF

Thanks 69442C, I think your assessment is completely correct. He isn't making money off this, but he doesn't want us to think he doesn't know what he is doing. I just called Napa and they will have the new float in the morning. My husband is going to put it on and (with fire extinguisher handy) we will see what we get. Explaining to him why we went around him will be the tricky part! Wish me luck!

Thanks again for everyone's help, you guys are the best.
Kathleen

GAOldsman

I sure am glad you found your problem. I don't know what you payed this so called "mechanic", but I would try to recoup some of it due to his incompetence. I agree 100% with Oldsmaniac ans 69442C.

my72vert

Kathleen, glad you found the problem. I've been reading all the posts and Joe had figured it out long ago. Very seldom is a complete carb junk. They can be rebuilt over and over and as long as you replace all the internals and know what your looking at, they will give you many years of service. Hell, good mechanics rebuild carbs from the 1900's.

MDchanic

Sorry no post on this until now, but I actually DID write one early on, only to have it get "eaten" by the server, and I didn't have the patience to re-write it.
Doesn't matter anyway, since it would just have been more of the same (this one was a no-brainer).

The thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is this:
When you put the new float in, please be sure to set the float level following the instructions in the Chassis Service Manual (or some similar source, such as here). If the float level is off, you will be back to the same problem, or will experience the opposite problem (fuel starvation), so it's important to set it right. I'm not sure what the specification is on yours, but it should be in the range of the ones I posted, and you can always get it close and then re-set it later when you get the right number (anyone have the right spec. for this one...? Joe...?).

This is an easy job, and an obvious problem, and one your mechanic should have figured out immediately.

- Eric

69442C

Kathleen, assuming the new float fixes the problem, I would still complete the repair by verifying that the fuel pressure to the carburetor meets the factory specifications. If the engine driven mechanical pump does this then get rid of the electric pump. If something isn't correct, get it corrected to avoid future problems.
Brian

MDchanic

I'd go back to the simple, reliable original mechanical pump and not worry about it.

You found the problem. Don't overthink this.

- Eric

KathleenF

Well, it won't be long now....

I picked up the new float, and have been researching the adjustment size. (btw, thanks for this info!) The problem looks like we are going to have to guess, as in 61 there was a change in some of them, noted on the carb tag...which isn't on there anymore. I suppose we will try the 'new' number first, and if it doesn't work, we will go back to measuring for the original
style. It appears to be 3/16 different.

Then I have to face the problem of the new, unneeded fuel pump, and (don't get mad at me) the fact that I gave the old one to the mechanic!

Thanks a million, you will be the first to know if this works!
Kathleen

MDchanic

3/16" is a decent difference.
I would bet that you'd be able to feel it in driving around (understanding that you're now used to an overly rich mixture from a heavy float).
If the float is set low, the needle valve will be too open, the fuel level will be too high, the pressure of fuel going into the jets at the bottom of the float bowl will be too great, and the mixture will be too rich.
On the other hand, if the float is set too high, the mixture will be too lean.

If worse comes to worst, you've only got two possible choices, and you can always switch between the two a few times until you decide which one feels best.

- Eric

KathleenF

Ok, I already have another question...hope one of you guys is around!

The new float is very tight in .....how do I describe this?.....the two metal brackets that you put a pin through to hold the float in place. Does that make sense? It sits so close to each of the sides that it doesn't move freely. When you turn the whole thing over, it will slowly fall a bit, but stops. So...that doesn't feel right to me.

I can't measure the adjustment without moving this by hand, so it seems as if it would not work freely when it was in place. Or...would it?

I think it is possible to bend (squeeze) the little brass bracket (tang?) to make it not hit those sides, but....I don't want to do anything till I hear from one of you guys. If I have totally failed at explaining this...I will try again!

Kathleen

69442C

The float needs to move freely so what you describe will cause a problem. Assuming the float is the same as what you removed, I would bend the sides in a little bit to eliminate the binding. Just be careful that when you bend the sides that you don't cause the holes where the pin passes through to be turned inward. Basically the sides of the float arm need to stay parallel to each other. If they are not, it may cause binding between the float and pin. I hope that makes sense.
Brian

Oldsmaniac

Yes the float needs to move freely. At times it may touch the sides of the bowl but should never hang up. Bending things is a common adjustment on carbs. You need to bend the float arm to set the height adjustment. If its too high the carb will flood...too low and the engine will get fuel staved as the bowl will go dry under certain circumstances before it can fill.

KathleenF

Thanks Brian, that makes perfect sense. I decided to try filing it a bit (with my fingernail file) and it just took the rough edge off and seems to have solved the problem. It falls easily and I can bounce it up and down now. I think it was just not cleaned off where the metal was cut. I talked to my brother and he said exactly what you said, that I could make things worse by making it the pin not aligned, so I decided not to take that chance if I could do it with a little more...finess. Hopefully, I can now go to the next step of doing the measurements!
Thanks once again, I will keep you posted, as you probably have guessed!
Kathleen

greenslade

http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/ maybe this will help him.

KathleenF

She lives! I can hardly believe it, but it seems to have worked. Sorry I couldn't get back on last night, but this is how it went. (btw, thank you Greenslade, I love that site and did get my info there) My husband adjusted the upsidedown measurement to the older number, put it all together....and crap. Spilling all over, just like before. I was almost ready to thow in the towel, believe me.

He took it all apart again (surprisingly still a bit confident and in a decent mood!) and made the second adjustment. DONE! No leaks, nothing. 3/16 of an inch, done mostly by crude eyeball and metal ruler method, and it seemed perfect.

I still didn't trust it, (and probably won't for a long time after what I have gone through!) so I took it out for a few errends, and a visit to Grandpa's, checking for leaks each time.....but it has remained dry as a bone.

I have said it before, I can't believe it! So many false starts, bad news and dripping gasoline....

There is something to be said about fixing things yourself, that is for sure. I did almost nothing but research, talking to you guys, and filing a bit of brass....and I am as proud of myself as I am of my hubby!

I think that *maybe* we can move on to the next phase, once I face getting back the fuel pump....which will be, hopefully, getting some of that dashboard stuff working. Sure couldn't have done it without you guys! At this point, I think I can safely say that signing up on this board has saved a total of $3,440 so far....WOW! You guys are the best!

Here she is, for those that haven't seen her yet. BlueBelle is a 20 footer, for sure!




Kathleen

MDchanic

Alright!!

See? A little knowledge IS a dangerous thing .

Let this experience slowly sink in, and you will fully understand why some of us never let anyone else touch our cars (or washing machines, or oil burners, or plumbing...).

Even if you need $200 worth of special tools for every job you do, if you buy the tools each time, you will still be ahead of where you would be if you paid someone else to do it (er... to do it... wrong).

Sounds like you and your husband are a great team!

- Eric

GAOldsman

Glad to hear you have fixed your carb problem. Beautiful car, I love it! It shouldn't give you any more problems for a long time as far as the carb goes. Persistence pays off and I for one am proud that you didn't "throw in the towel" Congrats to you and your Hubby! Now just put some worry free miles on that thing and enjoy!
Scot

GTI_Guru

Is that the car with the seat covers you redid? She's VERY nice lookin and I imagine a LOT more fun to drive now that it's not ready to fireball down the road.

Bit of advice. On a car this old, get a small protable fire extinguisher and keep it handy. Might save your bacon in the event something else lets go.

With all the talk about ethanol fuels eating away the old rubber fuel lines/gaskets/etc., it's cheap insurance in case something else goes awry.

Was your old float a brass one with solder joints, or a synthetic black plastic one? Just curious...

-Jeff

lshlsh2

Sweet ride. Glad you fixed it. It does give a great feeling of satisfaction when you do something like that.
Larry

Driftr

Wow!!
A most beautiful ride. Most Definitely worth all the trials and tribulations...

KathleenF

Thanks, you guys. Honestly, I can't say it enough that we couldn't have done it without you. I got to the point, after weeks of never getting anywhere, that I had almost convinced myself that a NEW carb wouldn't even fix the problem! LOL!

That in the end, it was such an easy and obvious fix, is almost too good to be true. As pretty as this car is in the long shot, she has a lot of work to be done. Just don't get too close! Yes, this is the car with my $28 blanket job, and it has virtually nothing inside that doesn't have to be done. BUT....that is the kind of thing I CAN do, so I can't wait to get that started....now!

The float was an old brass one, the new one is also brass, but a different shape. That worried me (everything does....) until I read that it was supposed to be that way and even showed a diagram with the old shape vs. the new one. The old one is still sitting on the coffee table, filled with gas....a little hand grenade. Gack....how could it have been so simple???

It will be a while till I am secure, and can really enjoy driving her again. But, I will get over it!!!!!! And yes, I am getting a fire extinguisher!

Kathleen

joe_padavano

Most of the problems usually are. I can't tell you how many times I've done stupid/expensive things trying to fix what ultimately ended up being a trivial problem. Unfortunately, most of today's "mechanics" are simply parts-changers. They only know how to read codes stored in the car's computer and replace what the manual says to replace. There's no longer any fundamental understanding of how the car's systems work or how to properly diagnose a problem.

Very pretty car. I've always liked the 61s. That's yet another car on my list of cars I need to build before I die...

69442C

Kathleen, that's a nice looking car and I'm glad you and your husband were able to resolve the problem on your own. And now look at the knowledge you have gained in doing so. I'm sure many of the people on this site learned in a similar manner which was by doing the work ourselves (probably due to a lack of funds) and being forced to understand the basic operation of the part or system involved. Yeah, sometimes it didn't go as planned the first time but we eventually got there and were more informed the next time something similar arose. You did just as you should have done and asked questions in order to understand where to look and what to do. And for a minimal investment in a replacement part, you're back on the road again. I leaned something too in that maybe I need to put on of those finger nail files in my tool box for some of that delicate repair work. LOL! Nice job! Now take that confidence and think about what you want to tackle next. As you know, help is here if you need it.
Brian