2blu442

Well, some of you guys may have heard my rants already about the efforts to push electrical cars down our throats in my part of the country. They may have their place as a local commuter, but Oregon's spent some serious coin installing recharging stations up and down Interstate 5. I believe the goal is to allow someone to go from the Mexican border to the Canadian border only on electricity. If you don't mind the multiple stops at recharging stations and have the time to sit and wait for the battery to recharge.

The purpose of this post is to share an article I found discussing how heat and cold affects EV car batteries. Here's the article if you want to read the whole thing.

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/blogs...n-cold-weather

The point being made is that AAA did some research subjecting three different EV cars to various temperatures. They found that extreme cold or hot can reduce the charge life of the batteries by up to 57%. The test cars went from 105 miles per charge to 43 miles in 20 degree weather. For all you guys who've had to deal with the Polar Vortex this winter, have you read any articles discussing using EV cars in the extreme cold? Were people having to park the EV cars and use something else, or was this an issue in a real world setting? If anybody has read about or have experience with this I'd be interested in hearing it. John

oldcutlass

So I wonder how that figures into the cost of ownership. I can't see why states were installing those power stations and not private enterprise.

2blu442

The argument made was that people wouldn't buy the cars until the infrastructure was in place. Private enterprise wouldn't spend the money on infrastructure until they saw enough cars to make it profitable. So the state in combination with federal grants began to install the chargers. Here's a link to a post I made in 2012.

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...brid-cars.html

Allan R

In a worst case scenario, I'd look at a hybrid before I looked at a totally battery dependent vehicle. We experienced a LOT of the polar vortex here and I'm betting that even the peeps with the hybrids noticed the engines were running more than normal. I know we discussed this 'green highway' before, and like you I don't think it should be paid with taxpayer $$$. It should be sponsored by the industry that's trying to evolve the EV. Do you notice also that for all the $$ they're investing in the green highway there's a remarkably absent amount of promotion for the EV and hybrid? North America still has a passion and desire for cars that burn gas and have higher HP/torque ratings than ever before. I'm in love with the new 2015 Genesis Sedan AND coupe....

And FWIW, although I know a good Hybrid can go up to about 900 miles on a tank of gas, my wife's old Saturn (yup - we still got that thing) still gets a respectable 610 miles on a tank of reg fuel. Just it doesn't have any real power and that's at speeds of around 65 mph, on cruise. I'm not going to buy into the EV or hybrid unless I'm forced to, one way or another.

oldcutlass

So did they accomplish the goal of converting Oregonians into electric or have all the stations been vandalized and destroyed by now.


I for one don't think an electric car is viable yet. Between the initial price, the depreciation, and the cost of batteries. Gas is still the way to go. If Tesla makes theirs more affordable, they have a chance.

Allan R

Good call on the Tesla Eric. I saw the production video they made and their car is absolutely amazing. It's also well within the grasp of the market that's buying 40-60 vehicles today.

I don't think the Oregonians or Oregonites? are being swayed by their government spending their tax $$$ on projects that aren't generally supported by the people, but by the private sector. John and I have discussed this same thing when the green highway stations were being installed, and I really agree with him.

Electric cars will likely have their biggest markets opened up in the cities where peeps don't have long commutes and can plug them in at home and at work. There has to be more incentive than what's out there now to convert even 1% of the population.

oldcutlass

I don't think our power grid is setup to accept that 1% yet either. Here in Texas we reach peak power on the really warm (hot) days in summer. Then we have rolling blackouts.

Allan R

Yup, you'd need to have solar collector panels on the roof of your EV to survive. What an aesthetically pleasing car appearance. Looks like a turtle carrying a garage door...

Sorry for jacking this thread John.

2blu442

There may be more government agencies, both local and federal, that have purchased EV cars here in Oregon than private parties. There was a charging station built in 2012 that I pass several times a week. The last time I saw someone using it was the week after the grand opening, back in 2012. I've love to see the statistics on just how many people have used it and all the other stations scattered out along the interstate. There are only a couple towns that I'd consider big cities in Oregon, and the push there is for public transit not private cars. So even in the cities I'm not sure the fully electric cars would be a big hit.

Yes, Oregonians is the correct term for those of us living here! Where I work we put in a solar panel array that I've been told has a life expectancy of 25-35 years. Yet it will take 50 years to create enough electricity to pay for its installation. We have the largest electrical generation plant in the US up on the Columbia river in just one of the dams. Then we built a large wind farm along the Columbia as its also very windy there. Back to your comment Eric, we don't have transmission lines with capacity to carry that. I've read that they turn off some of the hydro turbines to use the wind power, at a higher cost to the consumer. I'm all for alternative energy if it makes sense... but some of this stuff is just silly!

John

nsnarsk65cutlass

It's all about not burning fossil fuels,IE political so i won't go there .Here in Ca the push is for some high speed rail to no where .I pay multiple tax fees for fire bs just so the state can use it to pay their bills .But hey that yee guy is getting is own.Nick

rustyroger

So how is the electricity generated for these chargers?.
Burning fossil fuel?, nuclear power?, I bet it's not solar power in Oregon, how many viable wind farms are there?.
Off the coast where I live (South East England) is the worlds largest wind farm to date. So far several of the (Chinese built) turbines have needed major repairs before some of them have been commissioned, many more need repairs after limited use. It seems they will never pay for themselves unless the price of electricity is nearly trebled.
Even more infuriating is that several British companies submitted their own designs which proved reliable and likely to have a useful service life. However they were rejected because of their higher initial cost.
Seems we hve the same self serving, corrupt, ignorant and out of touch with reality bureaucracies on both sides of the Atlantic.


Allegedly.


Roger.

starfire

I saw lot's of Chevy Volts tooling around this winter here. Didn't seem to be bothering them at all.

jaunty75

This finding should come as no surprise to anyone who passed high school chemistry. What takes place inside a battery to produce electricity is a chemical reaction, and, as we all know, chemical reaction rates are strongly dependent on temperature. Anyone who has experienced a slow-cranking starter when trying start their car on a cold winter morning is familiar with this phenomenon.

Why do we store flashlight batteries in the refrigerator or freezer? Because they taste better cold? No. Because even a battery not in use has a finite shelf life as the chemical reaction proceeds, however slowly, even if the battery is not connected to anything. By storing it at cold temperatures, this reaction is slowed considerably, and it's life is prolonged.


There's a reason why gasoline engines won out over steam or electric powered vehicles back when all of this was being sorted out at the beginning of the automobile age at the beginning of the 20th century. There are just too many disadvantages to those other sources of power and too many advantages to liquid fuel power that, even after more than 100 years, liquid fuel has not been displaced. It likely never will be until it really is all gone, when and if that ever happens.

R-body_mopar

All this discussion is a moot point for me.....I couldn't afford to buy a new all electric or hybrid vehicle (or ANY new vehicle) in the first place.....

oldcutlass

I can afford it, just won't.

Allan R

Good point! Soooo here's a question for you. I stored my 72's battery out in the cold garage over the winter. That should help preserve it's lifespan according to your statement. At the start of the fall it was fully charged, and I threw the trickle charger on it once a month to keep it charged up. I checked it 2 weeks ago and it's stone cold dead, and it won't accept trickle charging. This battery is only 2 years old, so I don't believe the failure is age related. Fortunately I bought a 9 year warranty for that thing and it's not pro-rated either.

My Mrs. would have a fit if I started storing batteries in the fridge. Cheaper to buy new batteries than lose half my house or other things....

MDchanic

Storing the battery in the cold, not connected to the car, should definitely improve its lifespan, Allan, so long as the storage temperatures did not drop below the freezing point of the electrolyte (which is close to 32°F when fully discharged, but a whole lot lower when fully charged).

I'd say there's something wrong with the battery, or with the charger.

- Eric

Koda

Chilling a battery is fine, freezing it is not. Also, there are different kinds of batteries.

Tesla is still very much an innovation company, not a production company. We made a run of all electric Rav 4's and every single one of the main wire harnesses from Tesla (Toyota bought out a chunk of Tesla for access to the electric tech) had to be replaced. Fortunately, we caught it before they left the marshaling yard and just replaced them in confirmation back in the plant. They are still doing hand assembled cars, which is very fine for a limited run, but won't get them anywhere for mass produced vehicles.

Of course, they bought the NUMMI plant from NUMMI, and, as you all know, being the old Fremont line, that plant is OLD. All the stuff I had to install in Texas and Mississippi from NUMMI was pretty much junk, so I feel for Tesla trying to make that plant run.

Allan R

Eric,
Battery was stored on my bench over the winter, so not connected to the car. My charger works just fine. So lets take this a step further...

The battery in my Sonata sits out in the sub zero (literally - at times around -30) all the time hooked up to all its parasitic draws. Sometimes I don't use that car for up to a month, but it still starts right up - with all the draws etc still on it. (BTW that battery is 7 years old and still going strong) Explain how is this different from storing a new battery in the garage where it definitely gets below 32°F. Yes, I realize the battery may be the problem, but help me understand 'the difference' in how the battery life is magically diminished by sub zero temp in the garage.

Koda - The battery in question is a regular 12 volt 1000 CCA. Start of the storage it was charged to 14 v. Once a month I charged it overnight. No I don't have a battery tender; that's what warranties are for, right? After charging for a day, when I throw a volt meter on it, the reading is just around 11v. Likely a weak cell.

MDchanic

Yup. The explanation is simple: The battery's defective.

Nothing to do with the temperature or storage.

- Eric

Fun71

My plant put in a multiple EV car charging stations. No one used them because the pricing structure was not economically feasible. Then the charging company went bankrupt.

Allan R

In a sad way that's actually funny. Capital recoup is a key thing for lots of companies. But the strategy for cost recovery has to have a solid foundation to be viable. Given the relatively low production of EVs the strategy needs to be long term with other elements of sustainability to survive.

oldcutlass

Batteries are weird, the one in my Cutlass has been in there since 2006. My wifes Mustang has seen 3 batteries since 2006. My sons Mustang has seen 2 in 4 years. Go figure.

pogo69

I'm not going to bitch about the cost of future technology thats available today of course it expensive and seems futile....the same way the the guys riding horses and carts thought when they started seeing a few model t's and the like on the road

starfire

Yup.

starfire

Not all companies have the ability to be successful. The charging company obviously did not have a sound business plan. The Shark Tank would have sorted them out.