When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
I'm at the end of my rope here, I'm hoping someone can help me. The car won't start. I believe I've got spark and the problem is fuel, but I rebuilt the carb, set the float according to the specs on the build sheet. It appears to be overfueling, and the choke butterfly keeps closing up tight. I dialed back the choke thermostat to hold the butterfly open, and I disconnected the linkage to the power booster pump (which is inside the float bowl, it's like an accelerator pump, the linkage is on the driver's side of the carb and it connected to the throttle). I'm guessing it's dumping fuel into the carb every time I step on the gas pedal, that's why I disconnected it. I want to try to starve it, then hit it with ether/engine starting fluid. I say it has spark because I've checked it with my timing light. I have an inductive pick up timing light so I moved it to each plug wire while my son cranked it, and I see the light flash so that tells me I have spark- but at this point I'm not even sure of that anymore.
When I crank it, it'll sputter a bit, then pop back from the carb. When it was overfueling, it would spray wet gas out of the air horn all over everything. It was visibly wet inside the carb. I set the timing by lining up the timing mark correctly and checking the rotor position in the distributor, setting it as close as I can tell to the #1 cylinder firing position. I figure a few degrees retarded spark shouldn't prevent the car from starting, then I can set the timing more precisely with my timing light.
Where am I going wrong? What am I missing?
Some background- I just put the engine in the car, it was running before but leaking oil out of everywhere. While I had the engine out, I replaced the timing set, but it's not the first time I've done this. I lined up the marks on the gears both at 12 o'clock while the distributor rotor was at #1. Also, I never turned the crank or the cam while the gears were off, and I replaced them exactly as the old one came off. I never pulled the distributor at all, even now I've never pulled it out. I don't see how that could be wrong.
I was told the heads were done. I never pulled the heads. And before, the car ran. I drove it into the barn. I pulled one crank bearing cap to check the condition of the bearing. It was clean and shiny so I put the cap back on and re-torqued it to around 100 ft lbs (if I recall- I have the tech manual, I looked up the torque spec and used a torque wrench). I put "mystery oil" in the lifter valley to lube the cam and lifters before replacing the valley pan. I filled it with oil and trans fluid before cranking it. I haven't checked the compression, I might do that today if I can get my son to give me a couple hours of his time.
I don't see how I could have missed a wire- but it's possible. Maybe there's a wire to the coil I missed? I have one white wire to the + side of the coil and the - side goes to the distributor, to the points I think. There's a green wire hanging back there? Maybe that's supposed to be on the coil? I know I sound like an idiot here, but this isn't my first rodeo. I label everything. I always try to finish each step completely so I don't have to question what's left, what did I miss, did I forget something? Maybe that green wire belongs on the + side of the coil, and it became disconnected by mistake while I was working on something else.
Also, the starter cranks really slow. I know it's drawing down the battery quickly. I feel like it cranks fast enough to start the car, but after a short while, it's just dies. I had the battery tested in November and it was good. It's been in the basement on a trickle charger since. I questioned if it might be the original starter because it has the factory green color paint on it. I just came in after about an hour of working on it. The battery is drained again. I only get maybe 5-10 minutes of actual cranking time before it's dead. Then I have to put it back on the charger for another day, which is also very frustrating.
If I had endless money I'd buy a new battery, and new starter and a new carb just to prove it's something else- or that it starts.
So- could it be a stuck valve? Could it be some dirt or grit or little piece of something got inside there while i was working on it? And if so, would a compression test show me the dead cylinder? I'm thinking it should. And the starter, it there a way to test the resistance or something to determine it's bad? And about the coil wires- how many wires should be on the + side of the coil, and the - side, for that matter?
My wife's been giving me **** about this from the start- she never misses a chance to say "I told you so"... If she starts hating on the car she'll never stop telling me how much she hates it, and then I'll have to kill her and bury her body under the floor in the barn, and I'd hate to have to do that. It'll be really hard to explain to the family (but I think my brother would understand).
Seriously though, is there anything I can check when the car's not cranking? Can I pull the rocker covers to see if the valves open, and how would I do that? Maybe I should open the valley pan and look for a bent push rod, maybe? That's a shitload of work- any pre-checks I can do before I start tearing it all part looking for something that might not be there?
I have to ask. Did you put the rotor back in the distributor?
Here's the 394 timing mark alignment.
And the 1964 FSC ignition wiring.
You could possibly have a bad contact in the ignition switch. One of my Starfires pulled this stunt about 30 years ago. It would start, then as soon as the switch returned from "start" to "run" it would shut off.
Thanks for the wiring diagram. The only book I'm missing is #4- electrical. I'm going to wire up a remote start switch so I can start the car while I'm under the hood. Also, I'm going to go thru the starter wiring, make sure all the connections are tight and the grounds clean. Then I might have to get the starter rebuilt. Then I can spin the engine and test for spark the old fashioned way, and I can run compression tests on all the cylinders without relying on my teenage son. If I've got a dead cylinder (stuck valve) then I have to pull the intake and valley pan, rocker covers and look for bad lifters, bent push rods, slack in the valve train. My brain keeps going back to that green wire- if it's supposed to be attached to the coil, that could fix the starting problem. I'll have to chase it back into the car and try to see where it goes- won't that be fun! Yeah, the rotor is in the distributor- and I don't blame you for asking. There's no stupid questions, only stupid people who forget the most obvious things (like, where does that green wire go?)
I am wondering about that disconnected green wire. Check the wires going to the coil. I think there should be wires going to positive and negative sides of the coil. The carb settings might be a question also. "In the old days", you held the gas pedal to the floor when you flood the engine.
So I pulled the carb again, I'll go through it one more time to make sure I set the float needle and seat correctly. There's a wiring terminal block on the driver's side inner fender with the positive battery lead, the starter lead and a couple other connectors all tied together. I took that apart, cleaned it, and I put the battery lead first, then the starter lead so they're directly touching, then the other leads on top. I think I'd like it better if the battery went straight to the starter, and a smaller lead wire came off the battery to that block. It just seems an odd way to power the starter motor. I checked the connections at the starter and I checked the engine ground- everything's tight, but that doesn't mean the starter isn't tired. One thing though- I noticed the green wire (it's more of a blue color) is about the same color as the lead from the distributor base/breaker points to the coil. Seems like more than a coincidence they're the same color. I hate to connect a wire to the coil just because it's hanging there and it's the same color as another wire that's also connected to the coil, but I guess that's as good a reason as any...
There's a white wire on the positive side of the coil. The negative side goes to the distributor points. Your diagram seems to show 2 wires to the positive side- one to the ignition switch and one to the "coil resistor". There's also a small capacitor on the coil mount that's wired to the coil, but a capacitor wired in parallel is probably there as a kind of spark arrestor I think. Trying to remember my basic circuit theory- a capacitor builds up charge across 2 dielectric plates to smooth surges or sudden changes in voltage, if I recall. It mellows changes in voltage at the output side for a more consistent charge, if I remember correctly. Maybe that's my condenser- I didn't notice if the condenser is under the distributor cap- been a minute since I worked on a car with points. If it is, I think it should be wired to the negative side of the coil...
I lined up the marks on the gears both at 12 o'clock
I hope this is not what you really did. The camshaft gear is supposed to be at 6 o'clock like is shown above with the crankshaft gear at 12.
Again, BOTH are correct. If the marks are at 12-12 and you rotate the crank one full turn, then they will be at 6-12. The only issue is ensuring that the distributor is installed correctly.
I lined up the marks on the gears both at 12 o'clock
I hope this is not what you really did. The camshaft gear is supposed to be at 6 o'clock like is shown above with the crankshaft gear at 12.
Originally Posted by joe_padavano
Again, BOTH are correct. If the marks are at 12-12 and you rotate the crank one full turn, then they will be at 6-12. The only issue is ensuring that the distributor is installed correctly.
Joe, I think you may have gotten this reversed. With the cam gear and the crank gear at 12 oclock, cylinder #1 is firing. With the cam gear at 6 oclock and crank gear at 12, cylinder #6 is firing. So if you install at 6 and 12 you need to rotate the crank 1 full turn.
Joe, I think you may have gotten this reversed. With the cam gear and the crank gear at 12 oclock, cylinder #1 is firing. With the cam gear at 6 oclock and crank gear at 12, cylinder #6 is firing. So if you install at 6 and 12 you need to rotate the crank 1 full turn.
No, I have not. I was not worried about the distributor at all. Again, if the marks are aligned at 12-12, then they are also aligned at 6-12. It doesn't matter. If you haven't pulled the distributor then nothing has changed, and if you have pulled the distributor then always check for TDC on compression at number one. We waste WAAAAY more time talking about this than it takes to do it.
No, I have not. I was not worried about the distributor at all. Again, if the marks are aligned at 12-12, then they are also aligned at 6-12. It doesn't matter. If you haven't pulled the distributor then nothing has changed, and if you have pulled the distributor then always check for TDC on compression at number one. We waste WAAAAY more time talking about this than it takes to do it.
Joe, You've explained this before in an answer to my own question. Both timing marks at 12 o'clock means you're at TDC on the compression stroke. The crank shaft has a keyway so you can't put the gear on wrong, and the camshaft bolts are asymetrical so you can only install the cam shaft gear one way. If you take off the old timing set and then install the new timing set without moving things around it's nearly impossible to mess it up. I also took a minute to count the links down both sides to make sure I wasn't off a tooth- again, it would be pretty hard to do it. Further, I gave the whole assembly a couple good rotations by hand after installing the timing set, and I observed the marks match both top and bottom- 1 turn of the crank is half a turn of the cam. I'm more concerned with the starter motor drawing down my battery so fast, the carb, and the undocumented blue-green wire that I suspect should be on the coil. I wish I had a wiring diagram like I have for all my bikes. They even tell you what color the wire should be. You can identify the left rear turn signal hot feed (for example) where it passes from the fuse box under the seat on my bike by color alone if you have the correct wiring schematic.
If you R & R'd the timing set without touching the distributor and put the gears back in the same location before and after, the timing set/gear position nor the distributor position are the problem. They were ok before, they are ok now.
If you R & R'd the timing set without touching the distributor and put the gears back in the same location before and after, the timing set/gear position nor the distributor position are the problem. They were ok before, they are ok now.
Use a test light or voltmeter on the unknown wire. Test it first with ignition switch OFF. If there's voltage it's not part of the ignition circuit. Then turn the switch to START momentarily and see what you have. If it lights in START it's 12v from ignition switch to coil. Final test put switch in RUN. If it lights dimly or voltage is in 7-9vdc range it's the ignition circuit resistance wire.
If you R & R'd the timing set without touching the distributor and put the gears back in the same location before and after, the timing set/gear position nor the distributor position are the problem. They were ok before, they are ok now.
Yes BUT!! Did you have the gears at 6 and 12 before the chain swap? Then 12 and 12 after the swap? If so since distributor was never removed then ign timing is now 180 out? Thats my guess.... Easy enough to remove dist and put back in with rotor changed 180??
Yes BUT!! Did you have the gears at 6 and 12 before the chain swap? Then 12 and 12 after the swap? If so since distributor was never removed then ign timing is now 180 out? Thats my guess.... Easy enough to remove dist and put back in with rotor changed 180??
Nooooo! If the distributor was never out, it remains correctly timed to the cam.
While I had the engine out, I replaced the timing set, but it's not the first time I've done this. I lined up the marks on the gears both at 12 o'clock while the distributor rotor was at #1. Also, I never turned the crank or the cam while the gears were off, and I replaced them exactly as the old one came off. I never pulled the distributor at all, even now I've never pulled it out.
The timing gear set R&R is not your issue.
The issue most likely remains in the unidentified (to you) wire. Hopefully you ordered the 1964 five volume Oldsmobile Service Manual(s) which contains the color wiring diagram in Volume 4, Section 13 which clearly identifies color/location of each wire. Be patient, don't go hooking up wires ***** Nilly just because they're hanging loose. That type troubleshooting won't serve you well.
The issue most likely remains in the unidentified (to you) wire. Hopefully you ordered the 1964 five volume Oldsmobile Service Manual(s) which contains the color wiring diagram in Volume 4, Section 13 which clearly identifies color/location of each wire. Be patient, don't go hooking up wires ***** Nilly just because they're hanging loose. That type troubleshooting won't serve you well.
Thanks Norm. I have 4 of the 5 volumes, unfortunately, #4 is the one I'm missing.
Someone may have already mentioned this but definitely check/replace the condenser inside distributor.
And, I’ll be honest don’t 100% trust new ones….maybe buy 2 different brands. I seem to have
best luck with Accel condensors…but they have little short wire which are a pain.
in fact when I first brought my car…it had a condenser in distributor but they didn’t connect the wire to points…so strange.
Also, as explained to me in the past, don’t worry to much about the condensers mounted to the coil and at Voltage regulator, the main one that has to be 100% correct and working is the one inside the distributor.
I personally still have the other condensers (coil and regulator) still installed on my ride….no sense removing them just to remove them but someone please correct me if I’m wrong…but those are there for radio interference only?
Someone may have already mentioned this but definitely check/replace the condenser inside distributor.
And, I’ll be honest don’t 100% trust new ones….maybe buy 2 different brands. I seem to have
best luck with Accel condensors…but they have little short wire which are a pain.
in fact when I first brought my car…it had a condenser in distributor but they didn’t connect the wire to points…so strange.
I'm thinking points and condenser- but I have another theory I need to prove out...
I've had a nagging question in my head- was I stupid enough to leave a rag stuffed in the head? I know it sounds ridiculous- that a person would install the gasket and bolt up a manifold and forget to pull the rag out of the port, the one you used to keep crap out while you worked on the motor. I mean, don't we all stuff a shop towel or rag into the heads as long as the manifolds are off? I just had a nagging feeling that maybe I was stupid enough to forget, and leave a shop towel in there, so I pulled the manifolds today and confirmed- I ain't no genius, but I'm not that dumb. I tested the "undocumented" wire and found no voltage on it, so whatever it is, it's not going to help power the coil. And the + side of the coil shows 6 volts with the ignition switch on. Should it be 12 volts? I don't know, but it shows 6.0 volts- not 5.8 or 6.4... 6.0 volts. I'm thinking that's correct. I have spark at all the wires- all 8, tested with a spark tester. I wired up a remote starter so I can crank the engine while I'm under the hood without having to go sit in the car. That helped me find a vacuum leak- a bolt goes all the way through the intake manifold and needs to be sealed. I put a gasket on it. But still no love. SO my latest theory is oil pressure and collapsed lifters. If I'm not getting enough crank out of my starter to pump up oil pressure, and my lifters all drained down, then maybe the lifters are collapsing and not opening the valves so the fuel is collecting in the manifold- cuz that's how it's acting. It's popping out of the carb, as if the fuel is burning in the manifold, or the intake valves aren't closing. I was thinking the valves weren't closing, they were stuck. I'm starting to think maybe the problem is a few bad lifters, so the some of the valves aren't opening. With my new remote start button, I can pull the rocker covers and crank the engine. I can see if there's oil getting up into the rockers, and if the valves are opening and closing like they should.
I'm a stubborn SOB. Some people get pissed off and quit. I get angry, talk to myself and the car and cuss out loud, but the more it pisses me off, the more I'm determined to figure it out. I ruled out a few things today, and I may not know what it is that's preventing this car from starting- but I know a few things it's not. Once I rule out everything it's not, then whatever is left must be what it is...
I'm really thinking it's the lifters, and low oil pressure. It just makes sense. First time I built an engine with my cousin, he used "motor honey" on everything. It was a thick, sticky oil he used as assembly lube. "Hot Rod Garage" tore down a motor and they soaked the lifters in oil before they re-installed them. I poured a quart of Marvel's Mystery Oil all over the lifters and cam, but Marvel's is a thin oil. It probably just drained down. I pulled the oil pump when I checked the crank bearings, and I didn't prime it or pack it. I'm thinking it's not making oil pressure, so the lifters aren't pumping up and the valves aren't opening on some of the cylinders. It makes sense... All that's left to do is prove that's true, and then fix it.
I spilled a bit more blood on this car today, and a bit of spit and sweat and a healthy dose of rage. I think maybe we're beginning to come to an understanding, she and I. I'm not sure, but I'm starting to think I'd be happier with a dirty greasy ugly motor that actually started and ran...
Last edited by davek1661; March 30th, 2024 at 11:30 PM.
6v into coil is what I have on my 66. But, I still have my original resistor wire installed…mine came without internal resistor coil.
some people replace older coils with internal resistor coil which eliminates the stock resistor wire and/or firewall mounted ceramic ballast resistor. Not sure what you have?
internal resistor coil gets 12v
external resistor coil gets roughly 6v….my guess is you still have original setup with resistor wire coming to coil
As for rags in ports….i guess anything is possible…I’ve seen stranger things to be honest.
I’d start with point, condenser, cap, rotor to be honest. Because I’ve got to the point of replacing those every year.
And, even if your old condenser, points, etc. are in decent shape….its always good to keep a set in glove box for emergency spares…I consider those as important spares as my spare tire.
In your engine pic…I spy a beautiful motor!! Nice job, but I also spy a rusty old distributor. Again, I’d either replace that sucker or super clean her, especially the weights, etc. and do the new dizzy parts I mentioned above.
keep at it…if you have gas, air, spark your close…revisit dizzy parts, dizzy pointing at cyl 1 at TDC, can’t even be off one tooth and also fouled plugs. All easy/cheap items to check.
i personally think your really close to a solution.
Last edited by mb13; March 31st, 2024 at 06:35 AM.
I re-read this thread to be sure I didn’t miss anything. Did you replace the plug wires during all of this and if so have you double checked the firing order. Also making sure they are wired in the correct rotation. Also checking point gap was never mentioned. The popping up through the intake you mentioned makes me ask this.
I re-read this thread to be sure I didn’t miss anything. Did you replace the plug wires during all of this and if so have you double checked the firing order. Also making sure they are wired in the correct rotation. Also checking point gap was never mentioned. The popping up through the intake you mentioned makes me ask this.
Point gap is on the list. I haven't done that yet. I have not replaced the wires, but I've double and triple checked the firing order and rotation. I'll check the points and re-check the rotation and firing order again. I also may pull the rocker covers today and confirm valve action as I turn the crank through 2 full rotations, just to be sure, and to see if any of the valves are sticking. Good suggestion, the points... thanks.
I wonder maybe this is part of the reason the starter turns slow, drags and drains the battery so quickly... what a mess... everything on this car is covered with dirt and grease, except the stuff I've already cleaned, so why should the starter be any different?
I wonder maybe this is part of the reason the starter turns slow, drags and drains the battery so quickly...
Could still be the solenoid rather than the starter itself. What I'm viewing doesn't look that bad. The commutator (from what can be viewed) appears intact, solid and in decent enough shape. The brushes/shoes have lots of life remaining & their wires don't look bad. The inside can be expected to be filled with brush/shoe shavings, dust, filings, etc. A good thorough cleaning would require removal of the entire armature/commutator/bushings if you intend to go that direction. I like how you're evaluating items.
As to the debate on the timing chain…why not eliminate that (or not) with a simple test. Put a compression check tool in any of the cylinders. Crank the engine while holding a spark plug ( insulated from your skin of course) grounded on the block. Have your sone crank the engine. If the pop of the compression test happens at about the same time as you see the spark you are ok. If not….then timing is suspect either with chain or distributor orientation.
Your earliest entry thst mentioned “some” ignition /firing and then popping off thru carb makes me think that this is a timing problem, not carb.
This has to be better... before... and after before... and after.
I put a dab of grease on the ends of the shaft and re-assembled it. It's already back in the car. I'm going to crank her over just to see if she spins any better... then I'll check the points, rotor, condenser... I'd love to run a compression test on the cylinders too, esp if the starter works better. Maybe I'll get more than 20 minutes before the battery is dead again...
Nice job on starter cleanup. If I went through the effort to remove, evaluate & clean the starter & it presented in this (good) condition, I'd install a new solenoid - if for no other reason than now is the time to do it.
remote start button I put together using a momentary switch, a couple alligator clips and 20 feet of wire. Big clip goes on the positive battery post, small clip goes to the S terminal on the starter solenoid. Now I can spin the motor from under the hood, I don't need to be in the driver's seat. It'll start (when it decides to start) if I just leave the key in the "on" position. I used the plastic case the switch came in for the housing- that and a little duct tape.
Nice job on starter cleanup. If I went through the effort to remove, evaluate & clean the starter & it presented in this (good) condition, I'd install a new solenoid - if for no other reason than now is the time to do it.
Now you tell me! LOL! It spins so much better now though, even with the old solenoid- still won't start, but that was expected.
Nice job on starter cleanup. If I went through the effort to remove, evaluate & clean the starter & it presented in this (good) condition, I'd install a new solenoid - if for no other reason than now is the time to do it.
My wife's gonna pitch a fit when she sees what I did to her table cloth. I'll get a new "spring" table cloth, and tell her it was time to throw away the old snowmen.
Since you're on a roll I'll insert a thought. Delivering spark is one thing (I think you found you had spark if I read up). There's still some notion of a mysterious green (maybe blue) wire. OK, fine. Backtracking to spark delivery. Yes, a circuit tester will demonstrate you have spark. A circuit tester will not demonstrate quality of spark (from the coil) which is what you want to fire off a cylinder at the spark plug. Quality of spark is important. The video below is exactly how I measure quality of the spark delivered to the IGN system via the IGN coil. NOTE: Measurement of resistance on the OUTPUT side of the IGN COIL is important. You're on a roll, IGN COIL ever been tested &/or changed? Test it to find out if you're delivering a quality spark. You have to have the leads disconnected from the IGN COIL when performing this very, very simple test.
SUCCESS! I feel so stupid! It was so simple!!!!! Firing order- no matter how many times I checked it, I had the firing order wrong!!!! Hell yeah! It's ALIVE!!!!
So I set the timing now that the starter actually spins the motor. It was a little advanced so I turned it back and checked again- but it was more advanced, not less. Okay, no big deal, turn it the other way and- wait a minute! If that's advanced more, not retarded... then the rotor spins.... the other way. I had the firing order reversed, as gs72 suggested- thanks Gary! It sounds like a big block... OMG! I'm stoked. Thanks to everyone who suggested, contributed, read my whiny friggin' posts- wow, and on Easter no less- Christ is risen, and my Olds lives too!
March 29th, 2024, 08:22 AM
