Gasoline with Ethanol question
February 17th, 2010, 05:21 AM
#41
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So you're not telling us anywhere near the whole story! Your situation makes a little more sense when seen in the context of 200,000 mile, 15-year-old cars, one of which has a bad transmission. And then you're rounding a 3 mpg loss to 5 mpg. I guess I could make changing the flat tire I got last night into an epic journey through the three stages of hell accompanied by a battle for survival if I tell it right, couldn't I? 
So tell me about the flat tire.
February 17th, 2010, 05:22 AM
#42
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The cars 1994 Olds and Pontiac with 3800 engine. Both got around 30 mpg when newer. Last year mine would around 26-27 mpg.
I must be lucky.
February 17th, 2010, 05:28 AM
#43
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Anyway, the flat tire was like this. It went flat, see, and so I pulled off to the side of the road. It was a dark and stormy night. As I got out of the car, a dagger came flying past me out of nowhere and embedded itself into the tree behind me. A werewolf howled nearby. A cloud just then passed in front of the moon.
With the hairs on my skin standing on end, I carefully made my way around to rear of the truck. The spare is under the truck bed and probably hadn't been used or even off the truck since it was new back in 2002. As I'm peering under the truck with my flashlight with the half-dead batteries, another dagger whistles by my ear and embeds itself in the tree stump to my right. A coyote howls in the distance. The rain turns to sleet.
So I walked across the street to the Holiday Inn Express, got a warm, comfy room for the night and a nice, hot continental breakfast, called the AAA in the morning, and was happily on my way by 10 a.m.
I'm going to write a book!
February 17th, 2010, 05:29 AM
#44
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That is interesting Andy. I had a 1993 Buick LeSabre with the 3.8L engine. I drove it quite a bit with ethanol fuel and didn't have any problems with it. Of course, the driving I did with it was almost exclusively highway miles (when I was working for the Boy Scouts). I found that the mid to late 90s cars can really get better performance by desludging the throttle body and idle air bypass. Perhaps the ethanol blended fuel creates more carbon that clogs up everything?
I must be lucky.
I must be lucky.
February 17th, 2010, 05:31 AM
#45
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What the ethanol more likely does is LOOSEN carbon deposits already in the engine. It's usually a good a idea to change the fuel filter shortly after switching to gasohol and then change it another two or three more times over the following year to catch any additional crud that gets loosened.
February 17th, 2010, 05:32 AM
#46
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I wouldn't say you weren't telling the truth. Only that you told only part of the truth.
Anyway, the flat tire was like this. It went flat, see, and so I pulled off to the side of the road. It was a dark and stormy night. As I got out of the car, a dagger came flying past me out of nowhere and embedded itself into the tree behind me. A werewolf howled nearby. A cloud just then passed in front of the moon.
With the hairs on my skin standing on end, I carefully made my way around to rear of the truck. The spare is under the truck bed and probably hadn't been used or even off the truck since it was new back in 2002. As I'm peering under the truck with my flashlight with the half-dead batteries, another dagger whistles by my ear and embeds itself in the tree stump to my right. A coyote howls in the distance. The rain turns to sleet.
So I walked across the street to the Holiday Inn Express, got a warm, comfy room for the night and a nice, hot continental breakfast, called the AAA in the morning, and was happily on my way by 10 a.m.
I'm going to write a book!
Anyway, the flat tire was like this. It went flat, see, and so I pulled off to the side of the road. It was a dark and stormy night. As I got out of the car, a dagger came flying past me out of nowhere and embedded itself into the tree behind me. A werewolf howled nearby. A cloud just then passed in front of the moon.
With the hairs on my skin standing on end, I carefully made my way around to rear of the truck. The spare is under the truck bed and probably hadn't been used or even off the truck since it was new back in 2002. As I'm peering under the truck with my flashlight with the half-dead batteries, another dagger whistles by my ear and embeds itself in the tree stump to my right. A coyote howls in the distance. The rain turns to sleet.
So I walked across the street to the Holiday Inn Express, got a warm, comfy room for the night and a nice, hot continental breakfast, called the AAA in the morning, and was happily on my way by 10 a.m.
I'm going to write a book!
February 18th, 2010, 03:53 PM
#47
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I think that in 99% of situations, 10% ethanol in gasoline can be used without a problem, even in older cars. As long as you burn through your gas fairly regularly, there isn't time for moisture to accumulate and do any damage. Heck, around here, Speedway (SuperAmerica) has been selling 10% ethanol gas for at least the last 15 years. I'll bet that most people filling up there never realize what they're putting in their tanks or don't care. I would bet that for most of us, it has become a fact of life without our even knowing it. It's not something to lose sleep over.
February 18th, 2010, 04:03 PM
#48
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Several on here have commented that, based on state laws, they have no choice but to use ethanol/gasoline fuels at certain times of the year. Citcapp said that the state of Washington, where he lives, mandates it during the winter months. The way things are going, it would seem that finding non-alcohol fuels will become more difficult over time, not less. Perhaps it's time to find a way to get your car out on the road once in a while all year round rather than putting it away for months at a time. It certainly can't be bad for it!
February 18th, 2010, 04:54 PM
#51
I also drive my old cars in the winter. As long as it is a good day and the roads are dry, I will take them out. I drove my 71 about 100 miles last week. Of course, now with 10 inches on the ground and wet salty roads everywhere, I'll have to wait another week.
February 19th, 2010, 04:49 AM
#54
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February 19th, 2010, 05:15 AM
#55
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Unfortunately the nanny state mentality here is salt the roads no matter what, nice heavy rains, warm days-upper 30's with no threat of freezing-salt the roads. I really can't take my car out during the winter. I have on rare occations when the roads were clean. It sits undisturbed from mid december to mid march or early april. The tank gets a bottle of Marvels and a bottle of Stabil. I may change my fuel pump as a precaution, I replaced it in 2005 but I have no idea if it uses ethanol compatible parts, it also could have been manufactured a few years ealier than when I purchased it.
August 9th, 2011, 06:04 PM
#56
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Cutlass S's comment above about the loss of 5 mpg in using the 10% ethanol gas is a bit unbelievable as ethanol doesn't reduce the energy capacity of gasoline by that much. At least, he should tell us what his overall mpg is so we can put that 5 mpg loss in context. Is he dropping, for example, from 35 to 30 mpg (which would be a 14% loss) or 15 to 10 (a 33% loss)?
Given the energy density difference between gasoline and ethanol, you should expect maybe a 3-4% loss in mpg. On a car that gets 25 mpg with pure gasoline, using gasohol should drop you to just over 24 mpg. A loss to be sure, but not a large one.
Your comment above misses the point about using ethanol in gasoline. It is recognized that there will be a small loss in mpg, but by putting a little ethanol in gasoline, the completeness of the combustion is improved (ethanol adds an oxygen source to the fuel in addition to air), so the amount of pollutants coming out of the tailpipe is reduced. It's a trade-off. A little poorer mileage in exchange for a little cleaner air. That's the theory, at least. Another advantage, in theory, is that ethanol is home-grown. A little poorer mileage in exchange for fewer U.S. dollars going to Saudi Arabia.
It all depends on how you look at it. The effect of ethanol on mileage is only one of several considerations that go into the decision to put it in gasoline.
Given the energy density difference between gasoline and ethanol, you should expect maybe a 3-4% loss in mpg. On a car that gets 25 mpg with pure gasoline, using gasohol should drop you to just over 24 mpg. A loss to be sure, but not a large one.
Your comment above misses the point about using ethanol in gasoline. It is recognized that there will be a small loss in mpg, but by putting a little ethanol in gasoline, the completeness of the combustion is improved (ethanol adds an oxygen source to the fuel in addition to air), so the amount of pollutants coming out of the tailpipe is reduced. It's a trade-off. A little poorer mileage in exchange for a little cleaner air. That's the theory, at least. Another advantage, in theory, is that ethanol is home-grown. A little poorer mileage in exchange for fewer U.S. dollars going to Saudi Arabia.
It all depends on how you look at it. The effect of ethanol on mileage is only one of several considerations that go into the decision to put it in gasoline.
I hate ethanol....
On that topic, is it mandated in California? I'm travelling, and would like to get ethanol free fuel in the Bay area?
Michael
August 10th, 2011, 05:23 AM
#58
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I bet that, with a little research, you could come up with a list of stations in California or anywhere in the country that sell 100% gasoline. That assumes, as you say, that California doesn't require ethanol in gasoline sold there.
Here's an interesting page about gasoline in California:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/gasoline/faq.htm
From what it sounds like, ethanol itself is not mandated in California gasoline. But having some kind of oxygenate apparently is, and most gasoline suppliers have opted to meet that requirement by using ethanol.
Question #4 and its answer from that page may be the most relevant (I've underlined the most interesting part):
4. Will the Federal Energy Act requirements increase ethanol content in gasoline to 10 percent by volume?
Yes. We expect that the Federal Energy Act requirements will lead to a required national average ethanol content of 10 percent ethanol by 2012. However, California has had 10 percent ethanol in it's gasoline since the beginning of 2010.
August 10th, 2011, 10:59 AM
#59
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I have to believe that there's a website somewhere that tracks this sort of thing because there are enough drivers who, for various reasons, want to put non-ethanol gas in their car.
I bet that, with a little research, you could come up with a list of stations in California or anywhere in the country that sell 100% gasoline. That assumes, as you say, that California doesn't require ethanol in gasoline sold there.
Here's an interesting page about gasoline in California:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/gasoline/faq.htm
I bet that, with a little research, you could come up with a list of stations in California or anywhere in the country that sell 100% gasoline. That assumes, as you say, that California doesn't require ethanol in gasoline sold there.
Here's an interesting page about gasoline in California:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/gasoline/faq.htm
Michael
August 10th, 2011, 11:10 AM
#60
The Canadian government made this a real pain in the A$$.
They just required that all oil companies sell 10% of their gasoline with ethanol. So most of the gas stations around large cities have 10% ethanl in everything except premium fuels. Then outside the major cities its usually 100% gasoline. And this is all within the same chain. And no matter where you go all the gas stations say 10% ethanol even if it contains none.
Talk about being confusing.
They just required that all oil companies sell 10% of their gasoline with ethanol. So most of the gas stations around large cities have 10% ethanl in everything except premium fuels. Then outside the major cities its usually 100% gasoline. And this is all within the same chain. And no matter where you go all the gas stations say 10% ethanol even if it contains none.
Talk about being confusing.
Last edited by 66ninetyeightls; October 3rd, 2011 at 07:31 AM.
October 3rd, 2011, 07:14 AM
#61
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All gasoline sold in the US has some percentage of Ethanol (between 5% and 20% depending on location and time of the year) since either the late 70s or early 80s. Unless your gas station tells you theyre selling you 100% gasoline youve always been running some amount of Ethanol in your car. This isnt a new thing, the only reason youre even hearing about it is because people are looking for new energy sources and their searches are pushing E85 info into the limelight. But yes, if you live in the US youve been running Ethanol in your vehicle for a long time
December 16th, 2020, 05:10 AM
#64
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Since I last posted on this thread my Cutlass sat dead, out of sight out of mind, for nearly a year until I got it running. It fired right up after one shot of starter fluid and on gas (10% ethanol) that was sitting in the tank for all that time.
December 16th, 2020, 09:38 AM
#65
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yes I was just throwing that out there. Personally I run 25% aviation 100 LL and 75% Rec 90 or 93 pump gas. Maybe we should get an update now to see what success’s people have been having over the last 9 years.
December 16th, 2020, 09:54 AM
#66
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December 16th, 2020, 01:43 PM
#67
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Well I can tell you my experience. Gummed up carbs in Olds, Lawn mover, blower, etc etc.
I don't use my '79 Olds much and it seemed I was having to get the carb rebuilt ever few years or so.
1. Started putting a name brand 91 premium in like Chevron
2. Started using Sta-Bil Marine 360
no problemos since...
I don't use my '79 Olds much and it seemed I was having to get the carb rebuilt ever few years or so.
1. Started putting a name brand 91 premium in like Chevron
2. Started using Sta-Bil Marine 360
no problemos since...
December 16th, 2020, 03:58 PM
#70
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Same here. Also no problems with the lawn mower or chain saw, and those typically sit around for a year or more between getting used ever since the wife hired a lawn service. Maybe it's the dry environment that makes the difference.
December 16th, 2020, 06:35 PM
#71
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Pretty much all of the gas around here contains up to 10 percent ethanol, according to the disclaimer stickers on the pumps. I've never had any problems with it and my understanding is that just about any car can run it without issues; however, I might be hesitant if I had an older car. A few stations around here do offer non-ethanol gas but the price is pretty steep, usually close to an extra dollar a gallon over regular E10 unleaded, but that would be worthwhile for a vintage car. There's one chain around here, Sheetz, that offers E15 gas at a slight discount but I wouldn't run that stuff in either of my cars I have now and didn't even consider it when I had a flex fuel Impala.
December 16th, 2020, 08:35 PM
#73
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Its not that the "dudes" like it, its that the cars don't mind it. In Texas that's all that was available where I lived and there was 93 octane everywhere. Here in Oklahoma, they have both non ethanol and ethanol, the issue here is the highest octane in my area is 91. I had to back the timing down a bit.
December 17th, 2020, 04:47 AM
#74
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Since I initially posted in this thread I've started running mid-grade 100% gasoline in my 71. It seems to run better with it vs. the E10 gasoline. I put E10 regular in all of my other vehicles, except my truck which takes diesel.
December 17th, 2020, 06:44 AM
#75
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Here is the situation, original 400 in my 65 442. I have been experimenting around with different fuels to see what performs the best. Around the first of this year I had my original Rochester carb rebuilt by a reputable rebuilder and i have to say he did a fantastic job! Car runs great on 93 pump gas all other combinations not really (I tried a a lot of combinations too). So why do I want to use 100LL, well being the original engine I need the lead for proper valve seating. Why don't I use a lead substitute because I don't believe it works as well as the good ole lead does and leaves a nasty film all over the back end of the car. So after reading a lot of different forums and researching the chemical make up of 100LL I have found not only does the car run better than it does on 93 pump gas but I am also getting what that engine originally was designed to get. Based on my findings running 20/25 percent 100LL to 75/80 percent rec 90 or 93 pump gas I can still get just enough lead to protect the engine. This won't be done every tank but only every other tank as to keep the engine and carburetor clean. When the majority of your driving is at between 70 and 80 mph I believe that this can be done with little damage to the engine or carburetor. You ask, your carb is going to get fouled and gummed up with lead but that is going to take a long time and if that happens I'll send out the carb to be rebuilt again. When and if I ever have this engine rebuilt I will of course have hardened valve seats put in and modernized to run 93 all the time but in the mean time I believe this is my best option. No one want to have to detune their car so if this is what I can do to preserve the engine than I think this is a small price to pay. If anyone has has different or better advise I am always open to it. I would really like to hear what others have done and or are doing to resolve this issue with original 1965 400 cui engines. Also I plan on checking my spark plugs frequently to see if there is any negative effects. I have a stash of 44S plugs that were designed for this type of fuel consumption and I am hoping that the heat range and the added pertronics that I added will generate enough heat to keep the lead burned off. Time will tell but based on the time of year right now it will probably be later in the spring before I really know anything. I can always go back to using 93 pump gas if all else fails.
Last edited by eshawl; December 17th, 2020 at 06:49 AM. Reason: forgot to add some additional comments
December 17th, 2020, 12:54 PM
#77
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December 17th, 2020, 02:49 PM
#79
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I knew that it was used to raise the octane because oil refineries can only get 95 octane out of oil at best. Just imagine how much lead was added to the fuel to get it to 130 for older aircraft engines. The only question I have about this is if our older engines don't need the lead for the valves then why do they keep pushing this idea that when we rebuild these engines to used hardened valve seats?
