When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Is there anyone in business in the US that can put the date code in the mirror glass and might even supply the glass?
Thank you for any leads you might have.
tim
Last edited by 69442murph; August 19th, 2023 at 04:48 PM.
Hi guys.....im still looking for someone to imprint / screen print / etch or stamp the glass for the Hurst mirrors. Any ideas?
Here is a photo of an original 69 HO mirror glass.....
thanks
I've seen that same place in reference to some Pontiac guys having mirror codes done years ago, it's certainly worth a shot if they still do it, let us know what you find.
Did the supplier of the 1969 H/O mirrors always date the glass like that in your photo? The few I believed to be original on unrestored vehicles, and an NOS pair for sale here recently, were not dated. I very well could be in error but pobably should do some further investigation prior to etching dates on the glass.
My 69's mirrors didn't have any date codes on them. The car still had the original 2 piece front rotors on it and a bunch of other original stuff (save for the engine and transmission) so I'm pretty sure it wasn't messed with and I can't see anyone having to replace both mirrors with "generic" mirror glass. I'm the one who bought those NOS 69 H/O mirrors from Fred that was on here recently and I don't recall seeing any date codes on them either. If I dig them out I'll check again, but I don't think they did. Whether that was a "thing" on these mirrors, I'm not sure. I figure they were made by a third party anyway so having a manufacturer and a date code on them wasn't a priority in 69. And as far as I know, there was no requirements dictating outside mirrors had to have manufacture data on them.
I have held off. What I don't like is faking a date stamped mirror that isn't real. I get that you want what you want. To me it promotes fake is ok. I know I will get beat up over this but oh well. If it's real? Let it be real. Faking stuff is a thin line. Yes that is faking. Do what you want to do. One 69 Hurst Olds owner has already said his mirrors don't have that code. Faking the marks is...
I have held off. What I don't like is faking a date stamped mirror that isn't real. I get that you want what you want. To me it promotes fake is ok. I know I will get beat up over this but oh well. If it's real? Let it be real. Faking stuff is a thin line. Yes that is faking. Do what you want to do. One 69 Hurst Olds owner has already said his mirrors don't have that code. Faking the marks is...
Should have kept holding. Jeff said his car DID have the codes. So we already have some contradictions in our super-small sample size. You're making a tinfoil hat claim here with ZERO evidence. At this point, we don't know what's "correct" or not correct. Were ALL the mirrors supposed to have the code? Or NONE were supposed to have the code? Or did SOME have a code while others did not?
Recall too, these mirrors were also used by others besides Hurst on the super-sporty model of the 68 Mercury Cougar, the XR7 G (driver side mirror was remote controlled- that's pretty cool). Mirrors were made by the same company, Raydot. But they were a factory part? Maybe. Not sure if they had upfitters, too, for those models. They may have. I don't know, as I don't follow Cougars. But the codes may have been on those mirrors. Maybe. Or maybe not. I don't know. And apparently you don't know, either. I've only seen ONE original 68 XR7 G mirror and don't recall it having any codes on it. The mirror finish behind the glass was starting to spot, however. I'm assuming it was original glass but I don't know as the rest of the car was restored as well. So far, nobody has been able to produce any evidence of a mandate of manufacturer codes needing to be on outside mirrors.
It's like painting on the hood stripes on a standard hood 72 442. If you paint them on in the same place, is that being a fake? I don't consider it to be. Same thing with replacing the faded, broken, crappy old original H/O emblems with shiny, fresh new ones. You're RESTORING the car with parts that didn't come on the car, but made to LOOK the part as best as possible. So if your scratched up, broken mirrors had the codes on it, all you're doing is re-creating what was on there before. What's fake about it?
Your argument is premature. Put it in your back pocket for now until more information, if possible, is uncovered. Most of the people that were around doing the stuff back then are dead, and it's doubtful anything like this is on paper. It may go down as another life mystery like how many licks to the center of a Tootsie Pop.
Here's a shot of Mercury's prototype offering showing the mirrors at the Detroit Auto Show (photo courtesy of the Cougar Club of America)
First off, Thanks to those who have responded to my original question. I appreciate the feedback, opinions, and the sharing of knowledge from those who have responded.
A little history on my car.....I bought it in 97 completely disassembled by the previous owner back in the late 70's....the mirrors where with the car, but the glass was either removed or broken out, so I have no idea if my car did or did not have date coded glass....I have looked at original paint cars at shows over the years, some have had the code, some have not...I "assumed" all cars had the dated glass, but this thread, and my own visual research, has shown me that is not the case. .Im not trying to "fake" anything....just trying to put the car back together correctly.
This is an interesting topic. I wish I had been checking mirrors on 69 H/O's more diligently at the shows!
I would expect dating the mirrors is at the election of the supplier and not something the buyer, in this case Demmer, would dictate. In contrast I suspect window glass suppliers in this era did have to include markings which, in part, indicate compliance with DOT and other standards.
Somewhere I have an article tabulating the two or three letter code to the manufacturer. I recall DMI is Donnelly Mirrors (maybe Manufacturing?) Inc. Of course it doesn't answer what was done originally by the manufacturer of the topic mirrors. I'm pretty certain some were not marked. We could speculate further if we knew whether Demmer purchased mirrors in one or multiple lots. Multiple lots would hint at the possibility of non-consistent marking.
This is an interesting topic. I wish I had been checking mirrors on 69 H/O's more diligently at the shows!
I would expect dating the mirrors is at the election of the supplier and not something the buyer, in this case Demmer, would dictate. In contrast I suspect window glass suppliers in this era did have to include markings which, in part, indicate compliance with DOT and other standards.
Somewhere I have an article tabulating the two or three letter code to the manufacturer. I recall DMI is Donnelly Mirrors (maybe Manufacturing?) Inc. Of course it doesn't answer what was done originally by the manufacturer of the topic mirrors. I'm pretty certain some were not marked. We could speculate further if we knew whether Demmer purchased mirrors in one or multiple lots. Multiple lots would hint at the possibility of non-consistent marking.
Everyone reading this thread will be checking them now. But that was my original question. Did DOT require upfitters to use date-coded glass? I know every GM assembly line production mirror I've ever seen in the 60s, 70s and 80s has some sort of a date code on it. These mirrors weren't assembly line units. Or were they considered such? I don't know.
Donnelly (Donnelly Mirror, Inc.-DMI, and Donnely Corporation of America- DCA) and Ajax (AX) were the two big automotive mirror suppliers back in the day from my recollections. But here's the rub. The big question of the day is what glass did Raydot use when they made these mirrors as accessories? If they used their own glass, would it not have any codes? They made racing mirrors and all that you just ordered out of a catalog, but were they required to date stamp them? Doubtful. Yes, the code of A-AX-9 would very likely equivacate directly to January, Ajax, 1969, which could make total sense on the time frame. I think the 933 distributors were a lot of January date stamps, too. The DMI date codes were obviosly from Donnelly, but they used a number for the month.
Another question would be if they did mix and match, why didn't all the early cars get them at least when they were stockpiling these January date-coded mirrors to start production? There is no way to 100% verify the mirrors that came on my car were original to the car when built because I didn't buy it new, but everything points to it being as such.
I am so not talking crap about this. If you want to date code your mirrors do it. Some came date stamped. Some didn't. It's your car. Do what you want to.
My point is I am just not cool with the reproduction of parts cars etc to mimick true parts. There are so many fake this and that out there. Sneetches on beaches. Who knows what car came with stars anymore.
I appreciate all of the effort you guys put into trying to figure out what is 'right'. I really enjoy reading through these threads. I've been an automotive engineer for about 30 years and have supplied various parts to many manufacturers, including GM. Some things to consider regardless of the part:
* some components are governed by federal regulations which require visual identification (dates, etc.). Some are not.
* many components are required by the manufacturer (e.g., GM) to have a visible part number on the component. This may be etched in, cast in, etc. Note this could be the suppliers part number, GM's part number, or both.
* all manufacturers either want, or require, multiple suppliers for every part so that in the case of a hardship (e.g., local plant fire), their production line doesn't go down. The further down the chain you go in terms of the supply base - say, the glass in an aftermarket side view mirror assembly - it's possible there may have only been one supplier but probably not. These sub-suppliers could have even been small local glass companies, depending on how closely the auto manufacturers monitored the business of the mirror supplier. For a relatively small handful of specialty cars, they probably didn't invest too much time.
* it bothers me any time I see someone imply things weren't too tightly controlled back then. Don't kid yourself, GM knew everything that was going on and had very detailed requirements for every part and assembly process that went into their cars. This 'anything could have happened' business is pure nonsense. Quality control wasn't up to the standards of today, but they certainly did exist.
If I had to guess as to why some of the mirrors show date codes and others do not, I'd say it all has to do with the glass supplier(s) to the mirror manufacturer. If there was no regulation or requirement that the glass be coded, it was entirely up to each glass supplier what they did and the mirror manufacturer likely didn't know, or care, whether the glass had a date code when they built the mirror. Likewise, GM didn't know, or care, whether the glass had a code when they put the mirror on the car.
Just my 2 cents. I've got 2 '69's but would love to add an H/O some day. Probably the coolest car ever!
* it bothers me any time I see someone imply things weren't too tightly controlled back then. Don't kid yourself, GM knew everything that was going on and had very detailed requirements for every part and assembly process that went into their cars. This 'anything could have happened' business is pure nonsense. Quality control wasn't up to the standards of today, but they certainly did exist.
Maybe closer to "if someone can find a way to mess it up, it could happen". My dad worked for Corvette for seemingly ever, and when in St. Louis, he had plenty of stories of crappy QC/QA issues concerning the 60s-80s Corvettes. Mostly minor issues, but some would leave you scratching your head. It wasn't that they didn't have standards, you just wondered how some of the stuff would slip by. What was SUPPOSED to happen didn't always happen. Like a GMC parts on a Chevrolet truck over on the truck line and vice-versa. Not a huge deal, but it happened. Found and fixed before it left the plant, but there it was. Parts logistics were pretty tight even back then, but not infallable. I could see how it might happen as the trucks back then were virtually identical.
Not everything gets caught before being shipped. I ordered a new 1985 442 and when it arrived, both the front hood bumper adjustment locks weren't locked which quickly were found within 50 miles of driving as the hood corners started flapping up and down like fighting rooster wings; it was missing a nut on the cruise control bracket stud coming out of the thermostat housing, and missing the throttle return spring. Plus they forgot to put the limited-slip additive in the rear end. Or not enough. Plus, zero air in the air shocks. Dealer prep didn't put any air in there either.
Circa 1978, thereabouts, I went to visit my dad at the St. Louis plant. I personally watched the guy putting the Chevrolet emblems on the trunklids of the B-body cars. There was a little template jig the worker was supposed to use for placing the stick-on emblem. He just was eyeballing them up and slapping them on. The supervisor came along and did tell him to use the template, but as soon as he left, he was back to eyeballing them. He did pretty well, though, even without the template. They had numerous cars in the "fix it" bays before leaving to the parking lot. Mostly body part alignments from what I'd seen. Some cars were missing parts under the hood and they simply put the parts on the car, signed off the paperwork and off the car went. GM always impressed me on how they kept the line moving as they built the cars. You would see QC/QA inspectors come along during assembly, check something out and if they saw an issue like a paint flaw, they'd make a grease pencil mark on the car near the problem area. I guess that car would be yanked for repair later.
May 28th, 2023, 05:33 PM
But that was my original question. Did DOT require upfitters to use date-coded glass? I know every GM assembly line production mirror I've ever seen in the 60s, 70s and 80s has some sort of a date code on it. These mirrors weren't assembly line units. Or were they considered such? I don't know.
