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Rod, I just went back and followed all your latest progress- great job! About the "brass or bronze" or whatever material they are, plates on the door jambs. I don't think they are supposed to touch when sitting level at rest. Mine don't. I would see shiney spots on them if they hit often. I think they are sposta touch together only when car is in a twist situation or heavy railroad track crossing or something like that. My car has never had the body off the frame though I am sure the body mounts have sagged. I know when I go over a really rough 2 or 3 track RR crossing with top down, I can hear what sounds like drivers door hit on the plate. Anyway I'm not sure what the clearance is but I wouldn't shim them out, at least not yet- when you get it together you can see if needed. I wonder if the fisher body shop manual would address this??
Will definitely look forward to how you do your vert frame, nice job polishing I’m sure you are aware of caswell plating tons of buffing polishing supplies at decent prices.
Eddie:
Thanks for the tip on Caswell, I have used their phosphate plating system but didn't realize they have other polishing supplies. I'll have to take a second look at their website. I unfolded the top frame and set it up on some 2x4s and body stands get my game plan together. I had forgotten how rusty it was, it's been hanging from my garage ceiling for the past 5 years all folded up. The front header bow is beyond repairing and will need to be replaced, I found a few rust-thru holes on the front frame sections but I should be able to fabricate some patches, and the pivot hardware was in bad shape also. I thought about purchasing all new pivot hardware from Inline Tube...until I saw the final price tag: $396! Needless to say, I decided it would be worth my time to clean and restore the existing hardware.
I couldn't get the screws loose that held the latches in place; these also secure the front header bow as well. I tried the largest philips head screw driver I had in the toolbox but couldn't get a good enough bite to break them loose. Amazon to the rescue: I ordered a #4 philips head bit that was large enough to get leverage without slipping and managed to get the bolts free. Here's a few pics.
Overall the top frame is pretty rusty.
The front header bow is toast and will be replaced.
I'll have to fabricate a patch to fix this rust thru hole. There is a similar hole in the opposite frame rail.
This is the troublesome bolt holding the latches and the header bow. I sprayed a liberal amount of PB Blaster but could not break it loose.
Amazon to the rescue. $7 and one day later this arrived on my front porch.
Having the right tool for the job makes all the difference. The bolts came right out: easy-peezy!
Tim:
The best advice I can give regarding the top mechanism is take lots of photos (like you need me to tell you this-lol). I took the rear section of my top frame apart and immediately realized I couldn't understand how to put it back together. I looked at the pics on my phone which was helpful but not conclusive. I had to do a little internet surfing to look at some pics of the assembly before I figured it out. The way each section of the top frame mounts to the next and pivoiting arms make it a 3D puzzle that is not easily understood from 2D photos. SO, after putting everything back together, I took even more pics from multiple angles and I also took a walk around video to help my weak memory.
Two days worth of effort but the results (and cost savings) were worth every minute.
Here's some pics:
This is an example of the rusty fasteners.
This is the final result; after light wire brushing, some overnight Evap-o-Rust soaking, a little spray paint and a few new stainless nuts and washers. The wave washers were the hardest parts to clean up. I was careful to spray paint just the bolt heads and not get any paint on the shaft of the bolts where the tolerance between the plastic bushing is critical. All unpainted, bare metal surfaces were coated with T-9 Boeshield.
Everything laid out according to location on the top frame: header bow screws at the top, latch hardware is next, the intermediate middle bow hardware is in the middle followed by the pivot bolts and cram cylinder hardware.
Everything tagged & bagged, ready for reassembly.
Last edited by cdrod; March 30th, 2022 at 03:05 PM.
I acquired an impact driver years and years ago, I don’t really use it much once in a blue moon but it would have been perfect for that job tapping it with a hammer does two things it drives the twist but also shakes the screw, handy thing to keep I. The tool box . That header bow has seen better days I have not actually seen mine lol , I will be pulling the frame off mine as well for refinishing damn hope it ls t too crunchy .
Is the metal by the holes solid? Put a piece of copper pipe flattened behind your patch it might stop some burn through if the metal is thin If the holes were a little smaller you might have been able to put the copper behind and weld it should little zaps all around the hole till it’s filled then from the other side , but that’s a lot of work for just ok results
Eddie:
I think I'll fab up a patch for the large hole shown in my photos, but there are some smaller "pit" type holes on the other side that might be filled using the method you described. This will probably be my "car" task for the weekend.
I've been working on this car far too long! I was looking for something in my garage and I found another front header bow leaning in the corner that I forgot I had. I've been documenting this project in an Excel workbook; and in one of the worksheets I've kept track of purchases and things that I've sold to fund this decade long restoration. There it was in the expense spreadsheet, "front used header bow" purchased 11/18/12 for $137.50. I got all excited until I looked more closely. Although it's not "swiss cheese" like my original header bow, it has rust problems as well. I'm sooo tired of patching rusty metal! I was hoping I could take this to the sandblaster without a lot of effort - nope! I'm thinking seriously about buying a repop'd header bow (a $400 purchase) rather than attempt to patch either of these into a useable part.
Tim:
I'm planning to have a trim shop install the convertible top; as much as I'd like to say I did that myself, I just don't have the time right now. I've been reading up on the install process at several web sites, the best write up I've seen so far is this one from the Left Lane Brain:
It has lots of pictures and helpful tips. Reading this "how-to" and looking at all the pics, I've realized that my top mechanism is missing some parts and all of the tacking material is deteriorated and needs to be replaced. I think I'm missing the top part of the 2nd cross bow.
Here's some pics:
This pic is of the #2 bow (the front header bow is #1) and I'm missing the top section that is screwed to the cross bow. I'm not sure what the correct name is for this part, but In will need one. There is a flap of material sewn into the top that is captured by this missing part. It keeps the top from blowing up like a balloon when driving with the top in the UP position.
The newly found header bow is the top one, the original bow is the bottom one. Looks better? maybe?
There is significant rust where the tack strip goes and the metal is broken & rusted thru. This is the RH side.
The LH side has similar rust issues.
Last edited by cdrod; March 31st, 2022 at 09:39 AM.
Rod seriously following along lol I am worried about my own vert top frame now lol. I too will send my top to be put on , I can just imagine the bag of ***** I’d make out of it! I remember Brian ( 69442c) had bushings made I am assuming it’s the nylon looking ones , have you sourced any of these or are you just reusing the old ones ? Would love to have the frame blasted and powder coated but all those bushings would need to come off smh
I broke two of the plastic bushings before I realized they weren't metal - lol. The rest of the bushings were more carefully removed, cleaned and will be reused. It would be nice if you could buy just the bushings without having to purchase new nuts & bolts, but I haven't yet found a supplier for these. The bushings are a bit brittle but seem to fit tightly to the bolt shafts. I ordered 2 new bolts from Inline Tube that will come with wave washers & bushings to replace the ones I destroyed. Most of the "special" bolts I cleaned up and will be reused to avoid the high cost of replacing with new Inline Tube parts. I protected the shaft of the bolts with blue painters tape and carefully sandblasted just the bolt heads to remove the rust and what was left of the original chrome plating. I then sprayed the bolt heads with industrial-grade Rustoleum spray bomb paint with either shinny aluminum or gloss black and baked them at 350* in a little toaster oven to harden the paint. I didn't bother cleaning up the original nuts opting to buy new stainless steel nuts from a local hardware store. The original nuts seem to fit more tightly than the new stainless replacements; I think they may be "pinched" just a little but not as much as a normal lock nut to keep them from working loose over time. I'll probably use a little thread locker when I reassemble everything in the car.
Tim:
Thanks for the tip, I'll call them on Monday.
I felt like doing some blasting this weekend, so I cleaned up a few of the convertible top parts, at least the ones that will fit into my blasting cabinet. The bows and tack rails are too long to fit, I'll have to take these to a sand blaster to clean up. I also started repairing the front header bow. I have removed the most rusty metal and fabricated some patches. There are several compound curves which makes it difficult to shape the patches to fit properly; fortunately, these won't be seen as the top material and weatherstripping will cover this. I want to treat the internal surfaces of the front header bow with Ospho rust convertor before I weld the patches in place. I'm going to 'borrow' the plastic Christmas wrapping tub for this task; it's long and flat and about 6" tall, perfect for soaking the header bow in Ospho - just don't tell my wife. Once the Ospho has been applied I'll finish the patches and send it to the sand blaster along with the other bows & tack rails.
Here's some pics:
Rodney
This is the bottom RH side of the front header bow after a little wire wheeling.
I cut away the rusty metal with a 4-1/2 cutoff wheel and dremel tool being careful not to cut into the metal structure below.
I made a cardboard template of the curve and transferred this to a piece of 3/16" plywood. I used the plywood as a form to hammer dolly the pocket into the patches where the tack strip goes.
The compound curves made it too difficult to fabricate a single patch, so I divided it into 2 patches.
The original metal folded back with 1/2" tabs spaced about 6" apart to secure the tack strip. I opted to tuck the patch metal up inside the very rusty leading edge to give it more strength. I may weld the tabs on after completing the patches or I've seen some guys screw the tack strip thru the header bow and grind down the screws so they don't poke thru the top fabric.
Here's a pic of the latches before blasting and painting.
This is the after pic.
So far, I've blasted and painted the main top frame supports the rear upright rails and the latches. Next up is the two middle rails; both sides have rust holes that need repairing.
Last edited by cdrod; April 2nd, 2022 at 11:18 AM.
Yesterday I treated the front header bow with Ospho to convert the hidden rust inside. I used a small syringe to squirt the Ospho inside then carefully tipped it back & forth to slosh the Ospho around paying special attention to the leading edge where the upper and lower sections are spot welded together. The Ospho causes a chemical reaction that turns the rust into a hard black coating. Today I welded in the 2 patches I fab'd up the day before sprayed a little primer. It's not the prettiest welding work but that patches added some much needed strength to this corner and provided a better surface to mount the tack strip. I also sand blasted the middle sections of the RH top frame, and patched that rusty hole. Here's some pics:
Rodney
This is the hole in the top frame that needed fixing.
The patch looks good; I'm holding the piece I cut away to make the repair.
Repaired the RH side of the front header bow.
Last edited by cdrod; April 3rd, 2022 at 02:56 PM.
I stopped by the body shop today to check on the progress. They have done the rough body work and were getting the car car ready to spray a sealer coat of epoxy primer, followed by high build primer and a lot of block sanding. Meanwhile, back at the ranch (my garage) I've been slaving away on the top frame parts. By folding them up, I managed to fit the front & middle rails into my blasting cabinet. It was a little tricky getting into all the nooks & grannies, but I'm satisfied with the final results. The front & middle side rails are very rusty and pitted and required some filling and sanding to level out the pitting. Here's some pics.
Thanks Steve! I plan to blast the other side this weekend. In the mean time, I ordered some tacking material from Convertible Top Specialists; none of the available sizes seemed to be the correct size or thickness, so I ordered various sizes to see what would work best. I couldn't find any suppliers that carried the original sticking material; all of the convertible top suppliers stock a rubber/plastic replacement for the original cardboard or fiberboard material. The new material is designed to better hold the staples and won't wick water if it gets wet.
For the front header bow I ordered some 5/8"x 1/8" thick material. It's slightly more than 1/8' thick and might be a bit too thick to fit under the tabs that are spaced along the bottom of the front bow. I'll have to bend the tabs back a bit to see if I can get it to fit. The original tacking material was long gone from this area so I didn't have any reference to the original material. On the top side of the front bow, there are tacking strips in 2 places to secure the pads the run along the frame mechanism. The original tacking material was still there for reference, but to get the proper thickness, the previous installation had 2 layers of smaller 3/8" thick tacking material. I thought it would be better to use a single tacking strip at these 2 places so I ordered 7/8"x 1/2" thick material, but after doing a trial fit, the 7/8" material may be too wide and will not leave enough room for the welting material that covers the pinch weld of the header bow. I will most likely follow the previous installer's technique and install two layers of the 3/8" material. The 3/8" material fits well in the middle bow and the rear bow but will have to be doubled up to fill the channel in the rear bow.
Here's some pics.
Rodney
This is the new plastic/rubber tacking material. It's about 5/8"x1/8" thick.
The 1/8" material fits along the bottom, leading edge of the front header bow and holds the top fabric tight when the top is in the UP position.
This is the top side of the front header bow. There are 2 recessed channels on both sides that require tacking material to secure the top pads. The original tacking was built up with 2 layers of 1/2"x3/8" material. I ordered a single piece of 7/8" wide material but it may be too tight to fit the welting material that covers the pinch welded area at the LH side of this picture.
The original material is in the middle. I'll probably install the double 3/8" material in this area just like the it was installed before.
Last edited by cdrod; April 8th, 2022 at 04:01 PM.
I dont recall, do you plan on installing the top yourself? There have been some good threads in the past on doing it. I'm tempted to do mine just not sure I'll be happy with the results.
Steve
Steve:
I don't plan to install the top myself; but I want to find a shop that knows how to do it correctly. Most of the trim shops in Houston have experience with later model cars and mostly European brands. I've only found one shop that has done a 70's era, GM A-body top. I just want to get the top frame restored and aligned before taking it to a shop, and that goal includes getting all the tacking material correct.
I haven't started blasting the other frame rail yet, I'm kind of limited on time today; the wife sprung an unexpected family event on me this morning (friends daughter's engagement party). So after mowing the lawn, I worked on a few smaller details; like installing the tacking strips to the front header bow and sanding and priming the 3rd bow. The front bow was missing a few of the "teeth" to hold the tack strip in place. I used some #8 stainless screws and countersunk them into the tacking strip and cut down the excess screw that protruded through the header bow. Here's some pics:
Rodney
The front header bow was missing 8 "teeth" that hold the tacking strip (4 on each end), so I used #8 stainless steel screws to secure the tacking strips. The middle teeth were in good shape and strong enough to hold the tacking strip in place.
The #8 screws protruded through the other side of the header bow, so I cut them down with a grinder.
I cut down the screws so they were flush with the header bow metal and followed up with a little Rustoleum black paint.
Last edited by cdrod; April 9th, 2022 at 12:13 PM.
the shops near me in Asheville want $2500 for a new top. If I drive an hour it's $1500. So as much as I would like to do it myself I'll probably take it to a shop. I got a little tile left to decide. Hopefully the tops will be available.
Steve
Similar pricing here in Houston; The one shop that has done an A-body top quoted $1500, the highest price I was quoted was $2500 but I haven’t interviewed them yet. I found a nice little shop that gets good reviews only takes cash or digital payment options; no checks or credit cards. He quoted the lowest price, but I’m a little apprehensive because he mostly does import cars. I will have to interview a few more shops before making a decision.
Sandblasted the drivers side frame rail today and repaired the rust hole. I'll prime and paint it later this week. Next up is the rear bow and tack strip.
After sandblasting, I had to fix this rust hole in the convertible top frame. This is where the top fabric is sandwiched between the frame mechanism and the weatherstripping and can hold water leading to these kind of holes.
Carefully excised the cancerous metal.
I pre-bent the 16 gauge steel before making the patch piece to better follow the fold.
Tacked it in with the MIG welder.
After grinding down the welds. The patch won't ever be seen because the top fabric will be glued over this area.
I finished installing the tacking strips on the front header bow. I used two pieces of the 1/2"x3/8" material similar to what was done previously on the top of the bow. These will be used to secure the pads that fit between the top fabric and the folding arms. I also finished cleaning and painting the two, middle bows and installed the tacking strips. The rear bow was pretty rusty but fortunately it was mostly surface rust and I didn't find and rust thru holes. The original tacking material on this bow was stapled into the metal, I'm not sure how this was done but it must have been an industrial sized staple gun-LOL. I didn't think I could replicate the staple method so I decided to use stainless steel screws and lots of 3M weatherstrip adhesive.
The original tacking material on the rear bow was comprised of 2 layers of 3/8" thick material and fit tightly, just below the lip of the bow. The new material was just a bit thicker and doesn't compress like the original material; consequently, 2 layers of new 3/8" tacking material was too tall and would be proud of the lip. As luck would have it, I had just enough of the thinner material used on the front header bow to use on the rear bow. The 3/8" material plus the 3/16" material from the front bow was the perfect height. I glued in the 1/2"x3/8" tack strip first and secured it with 2 screws just to keep it from sliding around. I clamped this layer and let it get a good set before adding the thinner tack strip on top. Working from the center outward, I drilled holes for the stainless screws and removed the clamps, one at a time, gluing and screwing my way to the outer edges. I think they turned out well and the tacking strips are very tight; it should make the top installers job much easier to have fully restored frame rails and new tacking strips! Here's some pics.
Rodney
This is the top of the front header bow. These tack strips are screwed and glued in the 3M weatherstrip adhesive and will hold the front of the pads.
The rear bow had staples driven into the metal to secure the tacking material. The staples were mostly rusted away at the ends of the bow.
I pulled the old staples out with a pair of long nose vise grips, they came out without too much of a fight.
This is the 3M adhesive I used. Don't get too mush of this stuff on your hands & fingers; it's almost impossible to remove, even with lacquer thinner or other nasty solvents.
Here I am clamping the first tacking strip layer prior to installing the thinner strip on top.
After cleaning and painting the rear bow I glued and screwed the new rubber tacking material using #6 stainless screws and 3M adhesive.
I used a countersink bit to bevel the screw holes so the stainless screws would be flush with the top of the tacking material.
All the restored bows laid out in their proper order. The bottom bow in the picture is the the floating bow that holds the lower edge of the top material and the well liner. I purchased this from Convertible Top Specialists as my original part was way too rusty to be repaired. It wasn't well painted, so I wiped it down with lacquer thinner and wax & grease remover and sprayed a heavy coat of semi-gloss Rustoleum paint just to keep it from rusting.
They look nice, I'm sure the installer will appreciate the work you've done. So the floating bow does not get secured to the body? I was looking at my top which is coming loose in one spot and noticed that bow was not secured and thought someone got lazy. I guess it allows more room for the top when down.
Steve
Steve:
I think '69 and earlier cars may be different, but the '70-'72 A-body cars have a floating bow that is hidden inside the trunk; it holds the very bottom of the top fabric. This floating bow pivots off the LH & RH `folding top mechanism and drops down when the top is down. When the top is in the up position, it's held tightly against the body inside the trunk. It seems that earlier models have tacking strips that are hard-mounted to the body inside the trunk to hold the bottom of the top fabric. I only know this through internet searches as I looked for a replacement for my rusty floating bow; I didn't even know that was what it was called or it's true purpose as my top fabric was completely rotted away.
Rodney
Last edited by cdrod; November 18th, 2022 at 03:14 AM.
Yeah it's the same on my 69. I wondered when I had the top partially open that it was loose. It also mounts to the hinges as you described.
thanks for clearing that up for me.
Steve
I spent all day reassembling the convertible top frame. For anyone contemplating this project for their own car, I have 4 words for you: TAKE LOTS OF PICTURES! I thought I had a picture of every connection, bolt & fastener. What I found was many of my pics were taken from only one angle, and were not sufficient to fully show how the parts fit together. Fortunately, I shot a 'walk around" video with my phone which helped considerably with understanding the 3D nature of the final assembly. Even with all the pics, I still assembled parts incorrectly; I frequently installed the plastic bushings on the wrong side or put the bolt in from the wrong side, etc. This is where the pictures helped the most.
I think it turned out really nice. I can't wait to get the car back from the paint shop so I can start putting it back together! Here's some pics.
Rodney I may spray another coat of paint on the top of the header bow. It was pretty rusty and I don't want any moisture to bring back the rust.
I made notes about the adjustment points and did my best to reassemble with the same alignments.
I'm certain I will have to tweak the top adjustments when I reinstall the windows.
I used a 4-1/2" grinder to clean up casting lines on the latch handles. They look almost brand new, I guess, better than brand new as the factory didn't clean up the casting marks.
I need to touch up some of the metal tabs that hold the tack strips in place. The paint chipped off when I bent them to fit tack strip material.
Speedy:
The new floating bow came with the plastic tack strip already installed, but it's not screwed or glued in place so it's a little loose. I might run a few screws from the back to make it more secure. The original bow has an I-beam shape and the tacking strip material is stapled or screwed in place where the replacement is more of a U-shape. The metal that forms the replacement bow is bent around the tacking material which holds it in place. This allows the tacking material to be thicker than the original bow which should hold the staples better.
The overall shape matches the original part, the construction is good but the implementation is just different that the original. One thing I noticed right away is the mounting tabs are straight where the original part has a small offset. I don't think this will be a problem but I will do a trial fit on the car before taking it to the trim shop.
Here's some pics.
Rodney
The overall shape of the replacement part is consistent with the original bow.
The original bow has a few bends up & down where the replacement part is straight. I'm not sure if the bends are original to the stamping or if this is the result of 50 years of use and rust.
The mounting tabs seem to be shaped the same.
This is the mounting tab on the replacement.
This is the mounting tab on the original bow. It has a small offset to the inside which places the tacking strip a little farther outboard than the replacement part.
Here is a better pic of the offset bend in the mounting tab.
Last edited by cdrod; April 17th, 2022 at 06:33 PM.
Tim:
I really wanted to rebuild the pump motor as electrical stuff is kinda my thing, but I think my car sat outside for too many years and as evidenced by the rusty windings inside the pump motor. The plastic hydraulic tubing was brittle, broken or mostly missing, and the ram cylinders were stuck in the up position; everything was pretty much toast. I elected to buy a new pump, cylinders and hydraulic lines from Hydroelectric; they sell this as kit on eBay at a slightly discounted price.
The pump motor is sealed together with silicone.
The inside didn't look much better than the outside.
The original floating bow has a small offset at the mounting tabs which the replacement part does not have. I found a way to shim the mounting points farther outboard to make up for this offset. I bought longer stainless steel bolts and some nylon spacers to push the floating bow outward. Here's some pics.
Rodney
The mounting tab on the original floating bow (on the bottom in the picture) is offset about 1/4". The replacement bow (on the top) doesn't have this offset so the bow will be inboard 1/4" on each side when installed.
These are the new pivot bolts I bought from Inline Tube for the floating bow. The bushing holds the floating bow onto the frame mechanism; it's threaded and screws onto the bolt. There also is an unthreaded portion at the end of the bolt for reasons that are not clear to me.
To remedy this offset problem I bought some longer bolts and nylon spacers to shim the floating bow outward. The longer bolts are not really longer, they're just threaded all the way to the end of the bolt. Using a stainless washer and turning the bushing around will capture the mounting tab on the floating bow, and the nylon spacer will push the bow 1/4" outward. The original pivot bolt is on the bottom, the "solution" pivot bolt is on top in the picture.
This is the factory style pivot bolt installed on the frame mechanism. The floating bow rides on the bushing and is held against the frame mechanism.
This is the "solution" pivot bolt mounted to the frame mechanism. The nylon spacer pushes the floating bow outward 1/4" on each side. This should put the replacement floating bow in roughly the original, factory position. All the parts except the bushing (from Inline Tube) and the spacer are stainless steel.
Last edited by cdrod; April 18th, 2022 at 04:26 PM.
that looks great, can you post what size bolts and bushings and nylon spacers you used, I know you said you got them from inline, I am going to have to do the exact same thing, i think you just saved a few of us a bunch of time figuring that out lol, im not as far along as you i just started on my top frame, your car is looking great, i have been at mine since 2010 LOL sometimes these things just take time.
Speedy:
I bought my project on April 1, 2012 so I can relate to your long timetable. My car is currently in paint jail; It seems lots of guy have body shop horror stories and their cars just sit for long periods without any work. I think the body shop that's working on my car is progressing at a respectable pace so I'm grateful for a good experience so far. I'm stopping by the shop this morning for a progress update and to voice a few concerns.
The bolt & bushing come as a set from Inline Tube PN INL15178; I bought the pair of bolts and bushings on eBay, here's a link:
The "solution" bolt is a 3/8-16 x 1" long stainless bolt, the nylon spacer has an ID of 3/8", OD is 3/4" and it's 1/4" thick. I used a 5/16" stainless washer at the head of the bolt and turned the bushing around to capture the floating bow mounting tab. It's a bit tricky to install as the bushing has to thread onto the bolt, it would be easier if it was not threaded and could simply slide on. I will have to mock this up on the the car (when I get it back form the body shop) before taking it to the top installer; just to make sure it doesn't present a problem for the installer. I guess I could always drill out the bushing to that it could slide on and off the bolt if that's necessary.
If your working on your top frame, don't use a petroleum-based grease to lubricate the pivots points; I've been told it will damage the plastic bushings. I used a silicone-based grease call Sil-Glyde #SG-8. It's designed to lubricate plastic parts and is great for the plastic window rollers too.
Rodney
Last edited by cdrod; April 19th, 2022 at 06:55 AM.
March 27th, 2022, 03:29 AM
