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Wow! Thanks, man. Great info. This place is a great resource. Seems pretty straightforward: Cap, jug, aluminum-friendly coolant, the right T-stat, service or upgrade the radiator.
Fans. Amazing how something so simple can have such a huge impact on our vehicles. The worst fans self-destruct and take out everything in their path. Only slightly better are those inefficient designs that don’t draw air well and/or rob huge amounts of power from the mill. The best find a way to keep things cool without being an overburden. Tough requirements.
One thing I noticed: neither the Olds nor the Buicks used a fan shroud. I know things are tight under the hood, but the right shroud can make a huge impact on a fan/radiator’s ability to transfer heat.
Anyway... thanks to all for the continuing education. I’m jumping into this with much more confidence.
Now... need the right car to pop up...
You're right, no shroud. I have not seen anyone fabricate one yet, so I'm assuming we don't need to go that far. Some people also use electric fans and those have their own shrouds.
Not sure how I feel about electric fans. Now doubt that they’re more efficient, but that would be getting away from my “stock-plus 1960’s tech” philosophy for a car like this. If a radiator service or upgrade and a decent mechanical fan will do, awesome. Did the stock fans have a clutch?
Going to ask dear wife to contact the owners of a few of these cars on FB Marketplace since she has a Facebook account and I don’t. Hopefully I don’t get too many questions from her. 😬 Ha.
A pretty nice '63 Skylark with factory 4-speed popped up in my search today. Listed 3 weeks ago on FB Marketplace, Flint MI area. A really nice car for the money.... I just can't get into the small Buicks for some reason.
My father had a 63 Buick Special (step down trim level from skylark). Had the v-6 with a 4 speed, he loved the car would like to find him another but doubt another exists like it.
Not sure how I feel about electric fans. Now doubt that they’re more efficient, but that would be getting away from my “stock-plus 1960’s tech” philosophy for a car like this. If a radiator service or upgrade and a decent mechanical fan will do, awesome. Did the stock fans have a clutch?
I hear you on the electric fans. When I pop the hood on my car, I want to see 1962. It's why I want vintage cars, to travel back in time. I was just pointing out solutions that others have come up with. The stock fans do not have a clutch. The stock fan is a simple four blade.
Appreciate the feedback. Lots of guys put electric fans on the GM Squarebody trucks and it really releases some HP and significantly improves cooling. I just don't want to keep adding electrical 'solutions' if a stock or slight upgrade will do. I own older vehicles partially to avoid computers and wires! It sounds like our philosophies are a lot alike.
That's interesting Charlie! I assume that would be a tough part to find. I wonder if that assembly crosses/swaps with anything... maybe Rover had a clutch fan? My '71 Suburban had a straight fan on the crank without a shroud. The '78 has a clutch fan and shroud. It's a HUGE difference.
The Jetfire turbo version had a larger 4 core cross flow radiator that had much more cooling capacity. You could upgrade to that style radiator and would help cooling if needed. If the engine is tuned correct and the standard radiator and fan setup are all good you should not have a problem with over heating anyway. Many of these old radiators need re-cored. They can actually add a thicker core to the stock radiator to help.
My transmission guy is in Spencer Indiana and he rebuilt the roto 5 in my wife's Jetfire. It is holding up really well. I have become friends with my transmission guy and not sure if he give me a deal or not but he only charged me $900 for the rebuild, parts and all. One major key to this transmission is to update the governor to the cast iron version. These gast iron governors are getting really hard to find. There are different ones for different ranges of transmission serial numbers. I have 2 in stock but the likelihood of one matching your transmission range is about 50/50 at best. Avoid the Buick automatic like the plague.
Has anyone following along hopped up one of these little 215s? Also, with the compression I’m assuming that they need the premium go-juice.
The 63 automatic cars come from the factory with 11:1 compression. All of the 4 bbl and Turbo versions should run premium gas but I would even run it in the lower compression 2 bbl engines. You don't have to worry about hardened valve seats in these engines. They already have them
Man, this is such great information. Thank you! I'm getting a serious education. I hope other guys that take an interest in these cars in the future come along and get some use from this thread. I know I'm feeling pretty confident about taking this on as I keep searching for a car.
I have a few ‘63s located and could use the advice/guidance of someone that really knows these cars. If you’re up for taking a look and offering an opinion, drop me a PM or email. I’d really appreciate it.
The 63 automatic cars come from the factory with 11:1 compression. All of the 4 bbl and Turbo versions should run premium gas but I would even run it in the lower compression 2 bbl engines. You don't have to worry about hardened valve seats in these engines. They already have them
Olds 215's with a 4bbl. and automatic trans had 10.75:1 compression ratio, 4bbl. stick car was 10.25:1 Buick was 11.1
Olds 215's with a 4bbl. and automatic trans had 10.75:1 compression ratio, 4bbl. stick car was 10.25:1 Buick was 11.1
I have read the same thing. What I wonder is what did they do different on the manual shift cars to lower the compression that little bit? I'm guessing the pistons are a little different, but it's just a guess. I'm also wondering if there is any way to tell which compression ratio the engine has from the outside? I know the serial number will tell you if the engine is a Cutlass engine or not, but I don't know how you would know if it's 10.75 or 10.25:1?
I have read the same thing. What I wonder is what did they do different on the manual shift cars to lower the compression that little bit? I'm guessing the pistons are a little different, but it's just a guess. I'm also wondering if there is any way to tell which compression ratio the engine has from the outside? I know the serial number will tell you if the engine is a Cutlass engine or not, but I don't know how you would know if it's 10.75 or 10.25:1?
The 63 4 bbl with automatic got the same pistons as the Jetfire and the Jetfire was 10.25 so it had to have different heads. I did read one time that there is a casting number that is different but I think the heads have to be off to see it. I can't remember where the casting number is on them. The stamped number will be a G for both the automatic 10.75 and the manual 10.25
Interesting. It seems like a small challenge even when you have an original car. One of the ‘63s I’m looking at has a Buick 4bbl 215 and another comes with a second engine and tranny. Tough to determine what’s what especially if the seller isn’t knowledgeable and I can’t look in person.
Also curious if the car with the Buick mill kept the Roto 5 or ended up with a Buick transmission...
Also curious if the car with the Buick mill kept the Roto 5 or ended up with a Buick transmission...
Buicks got the two speed Dynaflow that used an air cooled torque converter. The RH5 was unique to Olds. It does not use a traditional torque converter, but instead has a fluid coupling internal to the trans. The RH5 has an input shaft similar to the one on a manual trans, and the engine uses a relatively heavy flywheel with a separate spring-loaded center hub, similar to the center of a clutch disc.
I should add that you can bolt either trans to either engine, but you need the flywheel that matches the trans. I've currently got a Buick 215 in my 62 F85 with the RH5.
I answered my own question by going to the D&D site. The "cc" number is the volume of the head's portion of the combustion chamber. The compression ratio was varied by the head design. Also the difference in casting numbers is how you identify them. Here's the info-
BTW- the head casting numbers that identify them can only be seen with the intake manifold off. They are supposedly under the center intake runner according to a post on britishv8.com. I looked carefully on my parts car engine that is on a stand, but couldn't see it. I think they are correct, you'll have to take the intake manifold off.
Here's an article from a 1961 Hot Rod that talks about hopping us the Buick and Olds 215s. Some good technical info in there too if you aren't interested in modifying the engines in any way. https://www.seight.com/images/tech/magreps/1961hrm.pdf
I have a few ‘63s located and have been chatting with the owners. If anyone is up for giving some advice via PM, I'd really appreciate it.
What’s it take to put rear seatbelts in one of these. Imagine it’s straight forward but wasn’t sure with the unibody.
The threaded inserts for the front belts are already welded to the floor. They have rubber plugs in the threads. You simply have to pull up the carpet, push out the plugs, and cut holes in the carpet for the bolts. I did this on my 62. The rear belts are unfortunately only dimples in the floorpan, but the locations are reinforced. You have to drill at the dimples and use a large washer on the underside. I actually put three point belts in my car. I was able to remove the trim at the top of the B-pillar and cut a slot that allowed me to lower a reinforcing plate down into the pillar to anchor the shoulder belt. The reinstalled trim covered the slot. I don't know if that's possible on a 2dr, however.
1963 Cutlass coupe 4 speed production was 2414 and f-85 coupe 4 speed production was 141.
That's a total of 2,555 cars .
Given the AACA estimate that less than one percent of a typical auto's production will survive after 25 years .
That leaves about 25 cars to pick from , if any of them are for sale .
That's a total of 2,555 cars .
Given the AACA estimate that less than one percent of a typical auto's production will survive after 25 years .
That leaves about 25 cars to pick from , if any of them are for sale .
Sounds like reasonable numbers. There were 203 1962 Jetfire 4 speed and only one known of now. It was discovered 5 years ago and there were none before it known. About 10 years ago there was one but it burned up in a forest fire sadly.
The threaded inserts for the front belts are already welded to the floor. They have rubber plugs in the threads. You simply have to pull up the carpet, push out the plugs, and cut holes in the carpet for the bolts. I did this on my 62. The rear belts are unfortunately only dimples in the floorpan, but the locations are reinforced. You have to drill at the dimples and use a large washer on the underside. I actually put three point belts in my car. I was able to remove the trim at the top of the B-pillar and cut a slot that allowed me to lower a reinforcing plate down into the pillar to anchor the shoulder belt. The reinstalled trim covered the slot. I don't know if that's possible on a 2dr, however.
That's a total of 2,555 cars .
Given the AACA estimate that less than one percent of a typical auto's production will survive after 25 years .
That leaves about 25 cars to pick from , if any of them are for sale .
Thanks, fellas. Guess I'll buy a car with an automatic. And maybe eventually do a swap. Ha.
1. "The Blue Car" - Very complete '63 Cutlass daily driver. Wedgewood blue with blue and white interior. (Not my favorite color...) All trim present and in good condition. Everything but the radio works as it should. Registered and inspected. Stock Buick Skylark 215 (4v High Compression) and RH5. Minor rust at bottom of fenders and quarters. Some minor rust at the bottom driver's corner of the windshield. Good unibody. Clean, complete interior. Video shows a smooth running engine. Aftermarket wheels and stock wheels with full wheel covers. Owner would be willing to drive it anywhere. Open and honest communication with the seller. $7000.
2. "The Black Car" - Driver Cutlass, missing a bit of exterior trim and interior bits and bobs. Faded black paint, black interior. Dry car with minimal rust except for one area of rot-through at one wheel opening. Rear bumper and deck lid dented. Olds 215 with edlebrock carb and rebuilt automatic. New brakes, brake lines, tires. Has a second 215 and transmission that goes with the sale. Registered and inspected. Good communication with the seller. $6800.
Everything but the radio works as it should.
Still looking...
Another FYI, The 63 radio almost never works. It was the first year for the transistor radio and the transistor went bad after all this time. Many of the 62 radios still work but they were tube radios in 62. If you want an original radio that works you either have to send it in or find a 62 working radio.
Great info. The radio really isn't important. I wouldn't pass up a car because of it. There's actually a guy doing really impressive conversions on original, stock radios to include AM/FM, Bluetooth, etc. It's your original radio, works like the original, just has updated guts. If modern quality/convenience like streaming or HD radio or hands free calling was important, I'd definitely be heading this way. Why cut up a dash or hang an aftermarket head unit under the stock radio? I'm seriously considering doing this on my daily driver '78 Suburban.
Sounds like reasonable numbers. There were 203 1962 Jetfire 4 speed and only one known of now. It was discovered 5 years ago and there were none before it known. About 10 years ago there was one but it burned up in a forest fire sadly.
There is possibly one more '62 Jetfire with a 4 speed in Sacramento, CA. It is said to be original, but no one has been able to confirm with the body tag or close inspection yet. It sometimes shows up at local shows and is part of a private collection. I'm not sure if their collection is open to the public or not. Here's a link to the car. The outside is refinished in non factory colors, but the interior is said to be all original.
Great info. The radio really isn't important. I wouldn't pass up a car because of it. There's actually a guy doing really impressive conversions on original, stock radios to include AM/FM, Bluetooth, etc. It's your original radio, works like the original, just has updated guts. If modern quality/convenience like streaming or HD radio or hands free calling was important, I'd definitely be heading this way. Why cut up a dash or hang an aftermarket head unit under the stock radio? I'm seriously considering doing this on my daily driver '78 Suburban.
There is another option that may be cheaper if you have a working radio. This is the solution I will be using. It's an adapter that sends a signal from your phone, or iPod into your stock radio through the antenna port. You can also still use the antenna I believe. What I like about it is you can keep your car stock and unmodified and still get what you want. My '62 radio is a partial tube radio and I love the sound of a tube radio warming up. It's all part of the time machine transportation for me. I hope to find period correct radio broadcasts of news, entertainment and advertisements to cue up on it and not just music. I'm not sure how easy that will be, but I bet it's out there.
Great info. The radio really isn't important. I wouldn't pass up a car because of it. There's actually a guy doing really impressive conversions on original, stock radios to include AM/FM, Bluetooth, etc. It's your original radio, works like the original, just has updated guts. If modern quality/convenience like streaming or HD radio or hands free calling was important, I'd definitely be heading this way. Why cut up a dash or hang an aftermarket head unit under the stock radio? I'm seriously considering doing this on my daily driver '78 Suburban.
There are a lot of vendors offering this service. I had the original radio from my 67 Delta done by Retro Radio. The replacement electronics module is tiny but has more capability than the original circuit board. All the original pushbutton controls still work. Output is 40 amps per channel, and aux and bluetooth are available. Of course, the cheaper way to do this is to just use the non-functioning stock radio to fill the hole in the dash and use a hidden stand-alone audio system for tunes. Since there aren't any oldies radio stations in this market anymore, I just listen to my own MP3 playlists. No need for an expensive rebuilt factory tuner for that.
There is possibly one more '62 Jetfire with a 4 speed in Sacramento, CA. It is said to be original, but no one has been able to confirm with the body tag or close inspection yet. It sometimes shows up at local shows and is part of a private collection. I'm not sure if their collection is open to the public or not. Here's a link to the car. The outside is refinished in non factory colors, but the interior is said to be all original.
A former owner of that car told me it is a conversion. I have only seen pictures of it but it is an outstanding car from what I have seen.
I live close enough and have a very good friend that lives in Sacramento, so I aim to find out one day. I intend to see that car in person on day. I am impressed that at least if they did a conversion, they chose to use the GM shifter and not the Hurst shifter like most do.
I live close enough and have a very good friend that lives in Sacramento, so I aim to find out one day. I intend to see that car in person on day. I am impressed that at least if they did a conversion, they chose to use the GM shifter and not the Hurst shifter like most do.
I am checking but if the guy that done the conversion is who I think it is, he used a Hurst shifter and modified the original stick to the Hurst shifter. He give me some how to pictures for if I wanted to do the same thing on my car. I am starting out with the original shifter but my upgrade later. I have an extra stick that I can modify so I would not have to hurt the original to the car.
I've seen some info on swapping in a different automatic but little on putting in a manual. I think D&D has fiberglass tunnel sections... stock 3- and 4- speeds and T-5... any other options? Assuming a slightly warmed up 215 and fun daily driving. No drags.
I'm gonna make the drive from central PA to Rochester to look at the blue car...
I am checking but if the guy that done the conversion is who I think it is, he used a Hurst shifter and modified the original stick to the Hurst shifter. He give me some how to pictures for if I wanted to do the same thing on my car. I am starting out with the original shifter but my upgrade later. I have an extra stick that I can modify so I would not have to hurt the original to the car.
I really look forward to hearing about your modification to the factory shifter. I'd really like to keep my original shifter too and if it can be improved a little, I'm good with that. I really like the look of the factory shift lever vs. the Hurst, so the idea of welding original onto a Hurst is clever too, but I'll likely stay with the GM one.
September 7th, 2020, 01:27 PM
