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I’d be interested to see one of your EFI’d, carb based intakes. Do you have any pictures?
Of course I do,, I’ll post pics of my motorhome car hauler I converted to port EFI/ throttle body years ago. it uses an antiquated Megasquirt set up , factory cast iron intake and a dummy Qjet for the throttle body. for what it is and how many miles I’ve put on it…it runs great with its tryY headers and big single exhaust.
on the factory bb intake the injector bungs are much higher compared to a sb because of the port height/manifold width/deck height…the straight down set up on a sb is way off compared to a big block..that’s what I was talking about. the shot angle on mine isn’t perfect, but it’s much better than a straight down sb set up.
I used the factory crank trigger wheel from a 403 Toronado .
now that you’ve asked me about my EFI accomplishments and experience,,which I know I’m not good at..can you reciprocate on your machining experience building engines? 😂😂😂😂
don’t take that as a slight…I’m really being nice to you. I have to, I got a message from the mods telling me I have to be nicer,,much much nicer.
Why is this correct compound injector angle so hard to understand?
Thats an “as cast”, not a true carb style intake.
And I really don’t care how you treat me, you’ve treated me like shyt for quite some time anyway.
Why would today be any different.
And just an FYI, I started doing Machine work almost 50 years ago, when you were still pissin in your pants. I ran Rottler boring bars, Kwik-way valve machines and Crank grinders, Van Norman crank grinders, and a Stewart Warner balancer. I O-ringed blocks, resized rods, and ran Sunnen align hone and even an old ck 10 and cv 616 Cyl hones as well. There’s not much I haven’t done before.
BUT, on another note, very glad to see you’re back on your meds.
Have a nice day.
Last edited by cutlassefi; May 14th, 2024 at 06:31 PM.
Of course I do,, I’ll post pics of my motorhome car hauler I converted to port EFI/ throttle body years ago. it uses an antiquated Megasquirt set up , factory cast iron intake and a dummy Qjet for the throttle body. for what it is and how many miles I’ve put on it…it runs great with its tryY headers and big single exhaust.
on the factory bb intake the injector bungs are much higher compared to a sb because of the port height/manifold width/deck height…the straight down set up on a sb is way off compared to a big block..that’s what I was talking about. the shot angle on mine isn’t perfect, but it’s much better than a straight down sb set up.
I used the factory crank trigger wheel from a 403 Toronado .
now that you’ve asked me about my EFI accomplishments and experience,,which I know I’m not good at..can you reciprocate on your machining experience building engines? 😂😂😂😂
don’t take that as a slight…I’m really being nice to you. I have to, I got a message from the mods telling me I have to be nicer,,much much nicer.
Too bad it took a mod to tell you how to act, you should have already known.
The problem is to put it at the same angle as the analog SEFI intake would require a spider injection setup. The rails would hit the manifold if layed over more. GM abandoned it, adopted TBI setups, Tune Ports at less of an angle and goofy spider injection setup. Dale is Dale, back with a vengeance.
The problem is to put it at the same angle as the analog SEFI intake would require a spider injection setup. The rails would hit the manifold if layed over more. GM abandoned it, adopted TBI setups, Tune Ports at less of an angle and goofy spider injection setup. Dale is Dale, back with a vengeance.
Christian..the shot angle isn’t some magical thing to achieve. it’s very very important and is the number one thing to do when you weld a new bung in.
it’s basic 101 EFI…and no, the angle being wrong can’t be compensated for by a mystical tuning guru. that’s an outright lie. there’s an excellent book available if you want to learn about injector placement.
Does anyone want to take a shot at proving me wrong on injector placement? I give you permission to call me every name in the book.. especially Mark. 😂😂😂
go ahead… look at any manufacturers injector angle placement in the last 30 years. do you think they tested multiple set ups to get it correct?
Blasting the port floor with fuel spray is about the worst set up ..especially on the sb Olds. the highest air speed is not along the floor..it’s just not.
Hitting the back of the valve is for drivability some, but mostly for emissions, plain and simple.
And you showed us a drawing, not a pic of the real thing.
Plus some of what you posted from a hundred years ago doesn’t really matter much anymore. Injector spray patterns have gotten much better. In addition the ability to more precisely control injector pulse with better ECU’s etc, has made placement less critical in some applications. Where do you put the injectors when you want to make power? Not pointing at the valve for sure.
And a few of us are wondering, do you have a drinking problem, or sometimes do you just skip your meds? Just curious😉.
Last edited by cutlassefi; May 15th, 2024 at 04:41 PM.
Christian..the shot angle isn’t some magical thing to achieve. it’s very very important and is the number one thing to do when you weld a new bung in.
it’s basic 101 EFI…and no, the angle being wrong can’t be compensated for by a mystical tuning guru. that’s an outright lie. there’s an excellent book available if you want to learn about injector placement.
Never said you were wrong but you might have to get creative with plumbing. Here is a good pic to see the angle if you enlarge it.
Hitting the back of the valve is for drivability some, but mostly for emissions, plain and simple.
And you showed us a drawing, not a pic of the real thing.
Plus some of what you posted from a hundred years ago doesn’t really matter much anymore. Injector spray patterns have gotten much better. In addition the ability to more precisely control injector pulse with better ECU’s etc, has made placement less critical in some applications. Where do you put the injectors when you want to make power? Not pointing at the valve for sure.
And a few of us are wondering, do you have a drinking problem, or sometimes do you just skip your meds? Just curious😉.
nope..hitting the back of the valve is also best for max power. the pic is the correct angle..I also posted a pic of the stock factory compound angle. No, if the injector is in the wrong place, being a “new” style injector is bs. spray is spray angle…there are different patterns. Picking the right one for max power would be best if you are after max pwr.
for max power, the angle should be individual for each port,, in the most active air speed area of the port. it could actually be different for each port. that all depends on the intake.
it’s probably best if you keep talking about drinking and meds..you have nothing else else.
On our setup, which points down and not at the back of the valve, I am going to be experimenting with injection timing degrees to optimize the torque for the amount of fuel used.
The Motec is a fully sequential system, not a batch fire like many other systems, so I look forward to playing around with it.
My theory is that I will need some additional degrees of earlier injector timing vs. if my injector was better angled at an ideal position to point at the back of the valve.
The toughest part about tuning here without an engine or chassis Dyno is that it makes it difficult to control engine and vehicle speed to optimize maximum brake torque with the least amount of fuel used and ignition advance without pushing knock while playing around on the street. All I can do is basically adjust the injector timing watching it to get richer using the same injector pulse width in MILLISECONDS. Once I hit the lowest lambda number, then I start tuning it again to lean it out.
DALE and Mark R., what tuning strategies do you both utilize based on injector timing vs.camshaft intake open timing?
I would think the cfm and velocity of the port at low lifts would also play into this optimization strategy.
Last edited by Battenrunner; May 15th, 2024 at 08:01 PM.
nope..hitting the back of the valve is also best for max power. the pic is the correct angle..I also posted a pic of the stock factory compound angle. No, if the injector is in the wrong place, being a “new” style injector is bs. spray is spray angle…there are different patterns. Picking the right one for max power would be best if you are after max pwr.
for max power, the angle should be individual for each port,, in the most active air speed area of the port. it could actually be different for each port. that all depends on the intake.
it’s probably best if you keep talking about drinking and meds..you have nothing else.
You couldn’t be more wrong on injector placement for power. Further upstream gives more of a charge cooling effect like a carb does.
NASCAR, F1 and NHRA ALL put them midstream, at the lowest. You’re way off on this one.
Go to YouTube, and look up Richard Holdener, “Honda injector placement for power”. All you need to see is the last 15 seconds.
In addition, there are 100 other videos confirming the same. Like I said, you’re way off on this one. You’re still in grade school when it comes to EFI.
Last edited by cutlassefi; May 16th, 2024 at 05:12 AM.
Thats an “as cast”, not a true carb style intake.
And I really don’t care how you treat me, you’ve treated me like shyt for quite some time anyway.
Why would today be any different.
And just an FYI, I started doing Machine work almost 50 years ago, when you were still pissin in your pants. I ran Rottler boring bars, Kwik-way valve machines and Crank grinders, Van Norman crank grinders, and a Stewart Warner balancer. I O-ringed blocks, resized rods, and ran Sunnen align hone and even an old ck 10 and cv 616 Cyl hones as well. There’s not much I haven’t done before.
BUT, on another note, very glad to see you’re back on your meds.
Have a nice day.
Wow, that’s really impressive..the problem is, it’s probably bs. When you used to hang out on ROP , you weren’t into any machine work..you were a beginner, desperately trying to prove your beginner engine building skills and failed miserably..remember the catastrophic failures posted from guys who had you build their engine? that was hilarious..especially that poor sucker from overseas who got royally screwed by you. that was many years ago..so the 50 year thing doesn’t fly.
im 66, my first job was in a machine shop at 14. After school, weekends and full time in the summer. at 16 I started my automotive machinist apprenticeship. After a few years of making crap money I left that for the Gas industry but continued to build engines. Come to think of it, maybe there isn’t much I haven’t done before either..but seeing I’m not a blow hard like you, I’m not gonna say that.
what where the names of the machine shops you worked in, and did they go out of business when you worked there?😂😂😂
You couldn’t be more wrong on injector placement for power. Further upstream gives more of a charge cooling effect like a carb does.
NASCAR, F1 and NHRA ALL put them midstream, at the lowest. You’re way off on this one.
Go to YouTube, and look up Richard Holdener, “Honda injector placement for power”. All you need to see is the last 15 seconds.
In addition, there are 100 other videos confirming the same. Like I said, you’re way off on this one. You’re still in grade school when it comes to EFI.
try to stay on topic about these small block Olds intakes converted to port EFI with bad injector placement.
Ken Duttweiler , you may have heard of him, he’s up there with you on the Fuel injection ladder. He says the injector intercept angle , that’s the injector angle to the port flow direction centreline should be no more than 45deg. less is better. I’ve read 30deg is about right if it can be done.
he also says to point the injector at the valve…always.
he says 1” to 2” from the manifold face is good. it takes no brains and no effort to plop and intake on a mill and drill straight down and weld in bungs…any monkey can do that.
Wilson makes some beautiful custom intakes..but why is every single one of their converted cast intakes drilled at the same straight down position, for all engines ? No matter the runner angle is?
Not bs at all, ran them all, have the pics to prove it.
And I did the training video that was included in all Accel Thruster DFI kits from 2008 to 2015.
Fact, not fiction. Plus I’m not an a..hole about it like you are.
Done here.
Factory injectors are 30deg off vertical, with a cant because of the port curvature to the valve. 100% of the converted small block intakes on this forum should have the injectors laid over over like this. none of the engines I’ve seen on here here are anything but street engines..
here’s some more detailed pics of the factory intake injector intercept angle..where it can be seen it’s pointed right at the back of the valve
Not bs at all, ran them all, have the pics to prove it.
And I did the training video that was included in all Accel Thruster DFI kits from 2008 to 2015.
Fact, not fiction. Plus I’m not an a..hole about it like you are.
Done here.
see ya, don’t let the facts hit your **** on the way out.
remember now, you can’t come back and comment..
oh, and I don’t give two flying F’s about some training video.😂😂😂.
From the _still_carbureted_ guy on the West Coast. Many thanks.
I couldn’t be happier than to see this level of interjector-angle detail as a debate. Keep it friendly, but keep it active. Us neophytes are learning big time.
My 455s are more or less 7 liters. My 2017 Audi Q7 is a supercharged 3.0 liter. The Audi has 365hp whereas the _twice_displacement_ Olds has maybe 375hp. Completely different torque values and curves, but it’s fun for me to see & experience how far things have come.
Comparing the 2 vastly different engines, I’m having a lot of fun watching the possibilities of retrofitting.
I’m still debating EFI/carb cost, but hey, it’s fun to dream. For the moment though, I think I’ll stick to well tuned carbs (even if they need work…) on simplicity & cost arguments. But please, please keep schooling us on alternatives as they come avaible.
For the record, I’m using Progression Ignitions Bluetooth distributors to control spark timing. Thes allow phone-based timing adjustments as opposed to fiddling with springs & vacuum pots.; Just to say I’m kinda with the modern management program, but not all in.
Truly enjoying possibilities, products, opinions, and experiences.
May 14th, 2024, 03:22 PM
