Horsepower vs Torque Explained
#1
Horsepower vs Torque Explained
Horsepower vs Torque Explained
I posted this on one of the Facebook Olds pages after seeing some comments on another post that made it obvious that some don't understand the difference or the relationship between the two.
Torque is simply a measurement of force while horsepower is a calculation of potential work output. Horsepower = total force (torque) applied over time.
I will try to explain with an analogy. Think of it like two guys racing on ten speed bicycles. One is a powerlifter (the "torque" engine). The other is a sprint cyclist (the "horsepower" engine). The power lifter's legs can generate much more force but at a much slower rate. He can only pedal so quickly. The sprint cyclist's legs can't generate nearly as much force (torque) per pedal stroke, but he can pedal at a much faster rate than the powerlifter. He can apply his lesser force much more frequently than the powerlifter, applying more total force over a given amount of time (horsepower).
Now think of these two racing their ten-speed bicycles and which would be quicker. If both were forced to race only in 10th gear the power lifter would have an advantage, especially at the start because he can generate more force per revolution, more easily overcoming the resistance. The problem he will run into is once he is up to his maximum pedaling speed, he is now limited to how much work he can do by the rate at which he can pedal. He can only apply his great amount of force so rapidly limiting his work potential (horsepower).
Now let's change the rules and allow both to choose which gear they want to start in as well as shifting gears as they please throughout the race. The sprint cyclist now has the advantage. He can start in a lower gear which multiplies his force input. He can then take advantage of his much more rapid pedaling rate. By applying his lesser pedaling force much more frequently, he is able to apply more total force over a given amount of time (horsepower). He can now shift gears to continue to accelerate while maintaining his much higher pedaling rate (rpm) to do more total work over a given time frame. He will now easily win the race.
Hopefully this helps explain things for some.
I posted this on one of the Facebook Olds pages after seeing some comments on another post that made it obvious that some don't understand the difference or the relationship between the two.
Torque is simply a measurement of force while horsepower is a calculation of potential work output. Horsepower = total force (torque) applied over time.
I will try to explain with an analogy. Think of it like two guys racing on ten speed bicycles. One is a powerlifter (the "torque" engine). The other is a sprint cyclist (the "horsepower" engine). The power lifter's legs can generate much more force but at a much slower rate. He can only pedal so quickly. The sprint cyclist's legs can't generate nearly as much force (torque) per pedal stroke, but he can pedal at a much faster rate than the powerlifter. He can apply his lesser force much more frequently than the powerlifter, applying more total force over a given amount of time (horsepower).
Now think of these two racing their ten-speed bicycles and which would be quicker. If both were forced to race only in 10th gear the power lifter would have an advantage, especially at the start because he can generate more force per revolution, more easily overcoming the resistance. The problem he will run into is once he is up to his maximum pedaling speed, he is now limited to how much work he can do by the rate at which he can pedal. He can only apply his great amount of force so rapidly limiting his work potential (horsepower).
Now let's change the rules and allow both to choose which gear they want to start in as well as shifting gears as they please throughout the race. The sprint cyclist now has the advantage. He can start in a lower gear which multiplies his force input. He can then take advantage of his much more rapid pedaling rate. By applying his lesser pedaling force much more frequently, he is able to apply more total force over a given amount of time (horsepower). He can now shift gears to continue to accelerate while maintaining his much higher pedaling rate (rpm) to do more total work over a given time frame. He will now easily win the race.
Hopefully this helps explain things for some.
Last edited by chadman; March 18th, 2024 at 06:00 AM.
#6
Great explanation, right up to the point where you allowed both riders to use all their gears.
I probably would have stopped there because it puts us down the rabbit hole of variable torque multiplication: either rider could regain the advantage by using different ratios and shifting at different leg speeds, much like we would with our cars, by choosing different axle ratios in conjunction with different transmission gears and experimenting to determine the best shift points for a particular combination.
Kind of morphs into a whole other subject, perhaps best saved for Chapter 2.
I probably would have stopped there because it puts us down the rabbit hole of variable torque multiplication: either rider could regain the advantage by using different ratios and shifting at different leg speeds, much like we would with our cars, by choosing different axle ratios in conjunction with different transmission gears and experimenting to determine the best shift points for a particular combination.
Kind of morphs into a whole other subject, perhaps best saved for Chapter 2.
#7
Great explanation, right up to the point where you allowed both riders to use all their gears.
I probably would have stopped there because it puts us down the rabbit hole of variable torque multiplication: either rider could regain the advantage by using different ratios and shifting at different leg speeds, much like we would with our cars, by choosing different axle ratios in conjunction with different transmission gears and experimenting to determine the best shift points for a particular combination.
Kind of morphs into a whole other subject, perhaps best saved for Chapter 2.
I probably would have stopped there because it puts us down the rabbit hole of variable torque multiplication: either rider could regain the advantage by using different ratios and shifting at different leg speeds, much like we would with our cars, by choosing different axle ratios in conjunction with different transmission gears and experimenting to determine the best shift points for a particular combination.
Kind of morphs into a whole other subject, perhaps best saved for Chapter 2.
#8
#9
Read my first post again until you fully understand this concept.
I will use my own car as an example. Plug 931hp (what's on my dyno sheet) and 3215lbs (what my car weighs) into the calculator linked below and see what you get. Then look at my E.T. listed below my sig pic. Pretty damn close.
ET/MPH From Horsepower Calculators (wallaceracing.com)
My goal is to always be able to meet or beat this calculator. If I can't, I know I have left something on the table.
#11
#12
A dyno only measures the TQ an engine makes..it’s measuring a twisting force. The dyno has a strain gauge or transducer to measure how much it is pulled or pushed out of shape
it doesn’t matter at what RPM the TQ is calculated at, if you can make more TQ over a previous pull, at the same RPM, it means you made more HP. So you always want to make more TQ (not where peak TQ is, but more TQ at the same RPM than before) you want the peak HP RPM in a drag application to happen at or just before the stripe in high gear.
towing and other apps are completely different
I don’t know why the video I posted earlier won’t work? It’s excellent because it’s gets into gear ratios
it doesn’t matter at what RPM the TQ is calculated at, if you can make more TQ over a previous pull, at the same RPM, it means you made more HP. So you always want to make more TQ (not where peak TQ is, but more TQ at the same RPM than before) you want the peak HP RPM in a drag application to happen at or just before the stripe in high gear.
towing and other apps are completely different
I don’t know why the video I posted earlier won’t work? It’s excellent because it’s gets into gear ratios
#13
A dyno only measures the TQ an engine makes..it’s measuring a twisting force. The dyno has a strain gauge or transducer to measure how much it is pulled or pushed out of shape
it doesn’t matter at what RPM the TQ is calculated at, if you can make more TQ over a previous pull, at the same RPM, it means you made more HP. So you always want to make more TQ (not where peak TQ is, but more TQ at the same RPM than before) you want the peak HP RPM in a drag application to happen at or just before the stripe in high gear.
towing and other apps are completely different
I don’t know why the video I posted earlier won’t work? It’s excellent because it’s gets into gear ratios
it doesn’t matter at what RPM the TQ is calculated at, if you can make more TQ over a previous pull, at the same RPM, it means you made more HP. So you always want to make more TQ (not where peak TQ is, but more TQ at the same RPM than before) you want the peak HP RPM in a drag application to happen at or just before the stripe in high gear.
towing and other apps are completely different
I don’t know why the video I posted earlier won’t work? It’s excellent because it’s gets into gear ratios
#15
a perfect example of that taken to the extreme is an F1 engine. Say it makes 1,000 HP at 15,000 RPM..that’s 350 ft/lbs at that RPM. Those engines operate in a very narrow RPM range. An engine like that would need many many gears to pull from a dead stop
Last edited by CANADIANOLDS; March 20th, 2024 at 05:46 AM.
#16
I have, several times now, and it still seems to me that you're conflating engine output with transmission characteristics. I think the discussion of gearing just muddies the water of the original horsepower vs. torque analogy, which was quite aptly presented.
#17
Torque is rotational force. Force, in itself, is linear. The pressure of the flame front times the area of the piston yields a linear force. That, times the lever arm of the con rod and crank, times number of cylinders, gives you the torque of the engine. Similar to the amount of linear force you put on a lug wrench to turn into rotational force.
The word is integral. Power is force integrated over time, and you can do neat calculus to show this. Just like distance is velocity integrated over time. Incidentally, energy is power integrated over time, for one step further.
The initial analogy is flawed because it assumes gearing advantageous to the high speed engine. One of the problems amateurs have with engineering is they assume something is BETTER all the time, when, chances are, if something exists, it is the best at one thing and worse at others. Engineering is a compromise and choices are made for needs. The reason high horsepower / low torque engines are chosen for formula one is not because of gearing, but because of weight savings. On the other hand, drag engines are chose for torque.
As for the stupid meme, that's dumb car guys trying to use engineering and physics terms without any education. If we must use the meme, kinetic energy is how hard you hit the wall, and momentum is how far you take it with you. Incidentally, momentum and kinetic energy are related the same way force and power are; integrals again.
The word is integral. Power is force integrated over time, and you can do neat calculus to show this. Just like distance is velocity integrated over time. Incidentally, energy is power integrated over time, for one step further.
The initial analogy is flawed because it assumes gearing advantageous to the high speed engine. One of the problems amateurs have with engineering is they assume something is BETTER all the time, when, chances are, if something exists, it is the best at one thing and worse at others. Engineering is a compromise and choices are made for needs. The reason high horsepower / low torque engines are chosen for formula one is not because of gearing, but because of weight savings. On the other hand, drag engines are chose for torque.
As for the stupid meme, that's dumb car guys trying to use engineering and physics terms without any education. If we must use the meme, kinetic energy is how hard you hit the wall, and momentum is how far you take it with you. Incidentally, momentum and kinetic energy are related the same way force and power are; integrals again.
#18
Torque is rotational force. Force, in itself, is linear. The pressure of the flame front times the area of the piston yields a linear force. That, times the lever arm of the con rod and crank, times number of cylinders, gives you the torque of the engine. Similar to the amount of linear force you put on a lug wrench to turn into rotational force.
The word is integral. Power is force integrated over time, and you can do neat calculus to show this. Just like distance is velocity integrated over time. Incidentally, energy is power integrated over time, for one step further.
The initial analogy is flawed because it assumes gearing advantageous to the high speed engine. One of the problems amateurs have with engineering is they assume something is BETTER all the time, when, chances are, if something exists, it is the best at one thing and worse at others. Engineering is a compromise and choices are made for needs. The reason high horsepower / low torque engines are chosen for formula one is not because of gearing, but because of weight savings. On the other hand, drag engines are chose for torque.
As for the stupid meme, that's dumb car guys trying to use engineering and physics terms without any education. If we must use the meme, kinetic energy is how hard you hit the wall, and momentum is how far you take it with you. Incidentally, momentum and kinetic energy are related the same way force and power are; integrals again.
The word is integral. Power is force integrated over time, and you can do neat calculus to show this. Just like distance is velocity integrated over time. Incidentally, energy is power integrated over time, for one step further.
The initial analogy is flawed because it assumes gearing advantageous to the high speed engine. One of the problems amateurs have with engineering is they assume something is BETTER all the time, when, chances are, if something exists, it is the best at one thing and worse at others. Engineering is a compromise and choices are made for needs. The reason high horsepower / low torque engines are chosen for formula one is not because of gearing, but because of weight savings. On the other hand, drag engines are chose for torque.
As for the stupid meme, that's dumb car guys trying to use engineering and physics terms without any education. If we must use the meme, kinetic energy is how hard you hit the wall, and momentum is how far you take it with you. Incidentally, momentum and kinetic energy are related the same way force and power are; integrals again.
most forms of high end racing now limit max RPM as a way to slow cars down and make racing more competitive..which is debatable. NASCAR does it through gearing and high drag downforce.
look at NHRA stockers..where there is no RPM or gearing rule. It’s incredible how quick some of the low HP and low TQ engines are..all because they have increased their RPM’s. If you can figure a way to up your RPM and still make the power, you will be a step ahead of the other guy
back in the 80’s FJ Smith was turning his small block Olds 10,500+ RPM’s. Which was insane…and way more than his competitors.
Last edited by CANADIANOLDS; March 20th, 2024 at 12:07 PM.
#20
It’s a good scale.
These are my #’s plugged into the calculator. AND a 1/4 mile pass.
The 1/8th mile is spot on.
The 1/4 is low (in my favor)
My converter is NOT optimal. It’s set up for 1/8th and slips WAY too much for 1/4.
(I had to turn it up to a 6400 red line to produce this pass)
623 TQ
625 HP
These are my #’s plugged into the calculator. AND a 1/4 mile pass.
The 1/8th mile is spot on.
The 1/4 is low (in my favor)
My converter is NOT optimal. It’s set up for 1/8th and slips WAY too much for 1/4.
(I had to turn it up to a 6400 red line to produce this pass)
623 TQ
625 HP
#22
It’s a good scale.
These are my #’s plugged into the calculator. AND a 1/4 mile pass.
The 1/8th mile is spot on.
The 1/4 is low (in my favor)
My converter is NOT optimal. It’s set up for 1/8th and slips WAY too much for 1/4.
(I had to turn it up to a 6400 red line to produce this pass)
623 TQ
625 HP
These are my #’s plugged into the calculator. AND a 1/4 mile pass.
The 1/8th mile is spot on.
The 1/4 is low (in my favor)
My converter is NOT optimal. It’s set up for 1/8th and slips WAY too much for 1/4.
(I had to turn it up to a 6400 red line to produce this pass)
623 TQ
625 HP
It's a Beast !
Thanks Peter.
#23
Dale wrote:
look at NHRA stockers..where there is no RPM or gearing rule. It’s incredible how quick some of the low HP and low TQ engines are..all because they have increased their RPM’s. If you can figure a way to up your RPM and still make the power, you will be a step ahead of the other guy
Bernhard wrote:
I agree it is impressive the rpm and ET's that the stock class racers are achieving. What I find interesting is that there are a few high tq big block cars that are one under running lower rpm and less gear. This is not the norm, I have never heard of a small block car being able archive this kind of performance with out tall gearing and rpm. Cars I'm referring to are 3550 LB's and run in the 10's.
look at NHRA stockers..where there is no RPM or gearing rule. It’s incredible how quick some of the low HP and low TQ engines are..all because they have increased their RPM’s. If you can figure a way to up your RPM and still make the power, you will be a step ahead of the other guy
Bernhard wrote:
I agree it is impressive the rpm and ET's that the stock class racers are achieving. What I find interesting is that there are a few high tq big block cars that are one under running lower rpm and less gear. This is not the norm, I have never heard of a small block car being able archive this kind of performance with out tall gearing and rpm. Cars I'm referring to are 3550 LB's and run in the 10's.
#24
Horsepower vs Torque Explained
I posted this on one of the Facebook Olds pages after seeing some comments on another post that made it obvious that some don't understand the difference or the relationship between the two.
Torque is simply a measurement of force while horsepower is a calculation of potential work output. Horsepower = total force (torque) applied over time.
I will try to explain with an analogy. Think of it like two guys racing on ten speed bicycles. One is a powerlifter (the "torque" engine). The other is a sprint cyclist (the "horsepower" engine). The power lifter's legs can generate much more force but at a much slower rate. He can only pedal so quickly. The sprint cyclist's legs can't generate nearly as much force (torque) per pedal stroke, but he can pedal at a much faster rate than the powerlifter. He can apply his lesser force much more frequently than the powerlifter, applying more total force over a given amount of time (horsepower).
Now think of these two racing their ten-speed bicycles and which would be quicker. If both were forced to race only in 10th gear the power lifter would have an advantage, especially at the start because he can generate more force per revolution, more easily overcoming the resistance. The problem he will run into is once he is up to his maximum pedaling speed, he is now limited to how much work he can do by the rate at which he can pedal. He can only apply his great amount of force so rapidly limiting his work potential (horsepower).
Now let's change the rules and allow both to choose which gear they want to start in as well as shifting gears as they please throughout the race. The sprint cyclist now has the advantage. He can start in a lower gear which multiplies his force input. He can then take advantage of his much more rapid pedaling rate. By applying his lesser pedaling force much more frequently, he is able to apply more total force over a given amount of time (horsepower). He can now shift gears to continue to accelerate while maintaining his much higher pedaling rate (rpm) to do more total work over a given time frame. He will now easily win the race.
Working with https://www.nursingpaper.com/nursing-homework/ for nursing homework assignments has been a game-changer for me. Their expertise in nursing topics is evident in the quality of work they deliver. Not only do they provide well-researched and professionally written papers, but they also ensure timely delivery, which is crucial for students with tight deadlines. The ability to communicate with writers throughout the process ensures that my requirements are met accurately. Plus, their reasonable pricing makes their services accessible to students on a budget. Overall, I highly recommend NursingPaper for anyone seeking reliable assistance with nursing homework.
Hopefully this helps explain things for some.
I posted this on one of the Facebook Olds pages after seeing some comments on another post that made it obvious that some don't understand the difference or the relationship between the two.
Torque is simply a measurement of force while horsepower is a calculation of potential work output. Horsepower = total force (torque) applied over time.
I will try to explain with an analogy. Think of it like two guys racing on ten speed bicycles. One is a powerlifter (the "torque" engine). The other is a sprint cyclist (the "horsepower" engine). The power lifter's legs can generate much more force but at a much slower rate. He can only pedal so quickly. The sprint cyclist's legs can't generate nearly as much force (torque) per pedal stroke, but he can pedal at a much faster rate than the powerlifter. He can apply his lesser force much more frequently than the powerlifter, applying more total force over a given amount of time (horsepower).
Now think of these two racing their ten-speed bicycles and which would be quicker. If both were forced to race only in 10th gear the power lifter would have an advantage, especially at the start because he can generate more force per revolution, more easily overcoming the resistance. The problem he will run into is once he is up to his maximum pedaling speed, he is now limited to how much work he can do by the rate at which he can pedal. He can only apply his great amount of force so rapidly limiting his work potential (horsepower).
Now let's change the rules and allow both to choose which gear they want to start in as well as shifting gears as they please throughout the race. The sprint cyclist now has the advantage. He can start in a lower gear which multiplies his force input. He can then take advantage of his much more rapid pedaling rate. By applying his lesser pedaling force much more frequently, he is able to apply more total force over a given amount of time (horsepower). He can now shift gears to continue to accelerate while maintaining his much higher pedaling rate (rpm) to do more total work over a given time frame. He will now easily win the race.
Working with https://www.nursingpaper.com/nursing-homework/ for nursing homework assignments has been a game-changer for me. Their expertise in nursing topics is evident in the quality of work they deliver. Not only do they provide well-researched and professionally written papers, but they also ensure timely delivery, which is crucial for students with tight deadlines. The ability to communicate with writers throughout the process ensures that my requirements are met accurately. Plus, their reasonable pricing makes their services accessible to students on a budget. Overall, I highly recommend NursingPaper for anyone seeking reliable assistance with nursing homework.
Hopefully this helps explain things for some.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Michael_
Transmission
12
June 8th, 2022 09:45 PM