Gene kerr

If you where gonna build a weekend cruiser pump gas and want to run 11.90s - 12.00s ish reliable what would you build in a 1969 cutlass 350 403 425 455 not a fan of LS swap want to stay oldsmobile

anoldsman

It all depends on what you consider "Street / Stirp". You can build a nice 350 with 10-11:1 compression using Big Block or Edelbrock heads, run some stall (3000+ is a good start) with 3.90+ gears. Look up Copper Cutlass here and on YouTube. He has an excellent combination. I consider that car "Street / Strip". If you want the lowest RPM, most torque, lowest stall and Hwy gears, there is no replacement for displacement.

New2oldsw30

Ok, the way I would go, BUT I'M NEW TO THIS OLDS PLATFORM, IF your starting from scratch:

- 403/455 short block
- Pro Comp heads thru EFICUTLASS
- hyd flat tappet cam,
- BUDGET intake, whatever you can find for a good deal, torker, street dom, RPM etc.
- Carb would be the same process as above in the 850 cfm range.

Then once that is figure, see about gears trans and converter.

wr1970

Just call Mark Cutlassefi he can point you in the right direction. Many on here will agree ask Mark.

chadman

455 +.030
10.5:1 compression
H beam rods
Edelbrock heads
230-235 @ .050 intake 235-240 @ .050 exhaust .575-.600 lift 110 LSA hydraulic roller cam
Edelbrock RPM intake

Should make around 500 hp and run 11s all day long.

coppercutlass

The problem with the 455 although it's been proven is the heavy bottom end and engine bearing diameter. The 350 can take more abuse. I cruise around on the highway at 4k rpm and the engine isn't even busting a sweat. I have over 120 passes on the current engine stock rods stock crank and it spun to 7k rpm. But I will say although my combination has great street manners considering what it is. Unless you can live with a 4500 stall and 4.30 gears it's not gonna be comfortable. The 455 will make the grunt down low and you can probably do the same with a 3.42 gear. Although you won't be able to spin it as high with stock rods and crank and you will need some bottom end work to stabilize the bottom end a bit you will have a more tame car. I'm.not gonna church it up. Although my previous combination ran 12.2's and I would regularly drive it to the track 130 miles round trip plus all the runs for that days outing. That combination was very basic and really street friendly but my car is also light. Currently 3285 with me in it and with the old combo it was 3450 . The only fiberglass I have is hood , trunk , and front bumper . This is a big reason why I wanna do a stroker. I can gain some cubic inches have more torque and I can run a 3.55 gear or so and still run in the same range E/T but I'm not taxing all the components as much to get there .

fleming442

There's a hundred ways to do it. It mainly depends on what your abilities are and how much money you want to spend.
Some guy at a cars and coffee a couple weeks ago was trying to tell me somebody was peddling carb to pan 403s on ebay for $3800. Could be a deal or it could be disaster. My money is on the latter.

New2oldsw30

This was one of Dales, CANADIANOLDS builds:

"468” 10.2:1
285/285 108 lsa 235/235 .560/.560 hyd flat , 2.100”/1.68” ported G heads 1.7 rr , dual plane air gap 950 Holley

a/c. Pwr brks and windows. Car weighs 4200lbs

has a 5 speed and 3:55’s Runs 12.3@110"

rickw30

^ this

69455

Cadman's build is great ran similar for years 11"s all day
Why would you want too cruise at 4K ?
BB 3:73 /gear 3K stall/ GV OD all day long !!

Now run a 505 pump gas build, 625 hp runs 10's (working on 9's with spray)
cruise at 80mph 3K
4,000# with AC and Tunes ( 100% street car)
Cant do that with a 350

coppercutlass

I don't mind driving around at 4k RPM. You could probably do a well set up sbo to run 10's with a stroker kit now and it wouldn't need as much gear. I'm just not a fan of the big block because if you are building a cruiser even a mild sbo can deliver and that's what's In my Pontiac. I ran well into the 12's with a 3400 dollar sbo and it still had 3.73 gears and I drove it everywhere with that set up. A BBO will cost more because you really do need bottom end work. Stock to stock the SBO can handle more abuse. At 4k rpm my little 355 isn't even busting a sweat and I'm usually hauling 70+ on highway stretches. Now most wouldn't probably like that but you couldn't do that with a BBO. That's where knowing where you want to make power and how is key. For me the writing was on the wall and before all the parts shortages you could picked up lightly used sbo parts for 1/4 of the price of what used BBO stuff went for. The last time my car was closest to street trim I think I had 5500 appx between engine trans and diff running 12.2's. 7k rpm on stock rods and crank tells the story and all I have is ARP main bolts.

Bernhard

Chad's build is a rock solid build if well executed.
Another option would be stroker crank in a small block with the new small block Edelbrock heads and aftermarket rods.
The key to any build is quality parts, machining ,assembly and overall execution/ detail.
I think Olds engines get a bad reputation because one of the above is missing or all of the above are missing from failed builds.
You could do it with factory cast iron heads but you would be leaving et and mph on the table.

New2oldsw30

Following

fall/winter plans are to pull the .030 over 455, check it out, and port heads, probably solid roller, torker and Sniper EFI on my 1970 convert. My goal is to run 11.30's on a good pass. BUT VortecPro Mark has me thinking like the chevy he did with 2.56 gears in the Monte Carlo??? Maybe go with 2.73 or a 3.08 and low to no converter. Even if it gives up some ET.

Rallye469

I like Chads build for a relative simple mid 11 or better build.
I used a 425 crank do do my 469.
.575 lift, .254 roller cam 10.7:1 CR…ran down to 11.01 in great weather.
drove it everywhere.

starting with a 455 is just easy power.

New2oldsw30

I know in terms of OLDS, Coppercutlass would be considered a light car @3200+. Heck even at his previous weight of 3400+ I would consider that light too.

I'm thinking average weight are 4000lbs? Figuring mine is 4200+. with that in mind, a car that run say x et at what weight? If you 700 or 1000lbs less then the norm, that needs ti be put out there. If one run 12.2s at 4500, say a guy asking for info is 3900, he can extrapolate how much difference there possibly is in ET.

fleming442

The rules of thumb:
-Every 100lbs of weight lost are good for a tenth of ET
-.1 off the 60' is good for 0.2 at the 1/4 mile
Play with these: http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculators.htm


My 67 is 3775 with me in it and a half tank. There's a lot of aluminum, but full interior, glass, and stereo.

Bernhard

I would start with a budget. The rest of the drive-line components are just as important in building a reliable street strip car. The lighter the better in my book anyway when it comes to a performance street strip car.

OLDSter Ralph

Yes, easy power and torque to start with. And more torque down lower to get it moving.

BINGO 72 Cutlass shipping weight was about 3500-3600 pounds. Removing the weight from the front end can affect 1/4 mile time more than weight from the rear.

That used to be 100 pounds equaled 1/10th second in 1/4 mile E.T.

coppercutlass

From my experience yes 100 lbs equals 1/10 off in E/T.

There is no doubt the logical idea is the 455 . But for the effort I think the stroker is gonna be the best of both worlds. .

My 72 runs 11.60's at 112 mph with a 1.54 60ft. At 3285 lbs. That's with just a 355 with iron heads and pump gas. Scrap built engine , second hand th350 with a 4500 stall and the recent diff is also a second hand item. .. what I also have is alot of testing and time trying a bunch of small stuff. In a world where the average guy wants quantum leaps i've shed tenths one at a time trying very small things

My views may be off the beaten path but I work with parts most would not want to bother with. Engine trans and diff I have 6700 in the engine carb to oil pan , 750 in the trans and 2000 in the diff .

I think from an engine design stand point the stroker now that's it's more available is probably gonna be the better option imo. I think the 403 stroker that Dr. Dan and remmel did was proof.

matt69olds

My 69 cutlass runs 11:70-11:60, has done 2 drag weeks (winning quickest olds in 2016) parts of 5 power Tours, hundreds of quarter mile passes, had who knows how many bottle of nitrous (has gone a best of 7.02 1/8 on the bottle, never tried it quarter mile) and the short block had been together for 18 years. In all honesty, if the crank fell out of it tomorrow I’d have no reason to bitch. Especially considering it isn’t the best build.

Stock rods with ARP rod bolts. Stock crank, custom comp roller cam, basically stock Edelbrock heads, 3.73 gears, 10 inch coan converter, with a gear vender. It cruises 75 mph all day at 2900, and weighs a little over 4000 with me in it. The car has A/C, cruise, power door lock/windows, and tons of modern features hidden in plain view

If I were on your shoes (or if I were to try and build s similar car) use lighter pistons and better rods. Skip the gear vender, go for the 4L80. I have a ton of sound deadener and insulation in the car, plus all the creature comfort’s, that’s a few hundred pounds right there.

New2oldsw30

VortecPro Mark talks about real cars, not just car but real weight of legit normal cars, when advertising what a certain engine should run at a certain weight. We have found that 100lbs usually is only .075/.078 not quite a tenth. BUt a tenth is easy math, just can get really out of whack when your taking a lot of weight into the equation, like 600lbs. And that is NA car not power adders either.

As far as gear vendor?? I have 1 for a T400. I like the idea of the GV over the 4 speed OD trans. Both have there advantages I just feel that usually one has a respectable trans already, so it less $$$ to move up to the GV over the completely new 4 speed OD trans, like 4L80 or 200R4. BUT again it gets back to weight of these cars. Sol a mildly done 455 will have tq and weight to handle. So even thought he trans is rated for X Hp, you need to have a OD trans rated higher to handle the tq and the weight just to be safe.

I have a goal with my 1970 convert, 11.30 NA and daily driver with AC, cruise, yet dive on the highway at 70+ for hours if needed? Can that be done, YEP and it is EASY. It's just cubic dollars. Just won't know what exactly is needed till the fall. Hell I haven't even taken possession of the car YET.

But with all that being said, like Bernard said, BUDGET. that is usually in the first 3 question I ask customer/people? Budget will usually dictate it the need will be met.

zekecut70

That's what I'm talking about!
70 Cutlass, close to the same set up except Eagle rods. 4100lbs. With A/C and 200r4. 11.90's .Not really leaning on it out of the hole.

fleming442

The car needs to be thought out for all goals. Keep in mind that sub- 11.50 times require a jungle gym and I'm pretty sure it's higher for drop tops.

I'm only keeping the Muncie for nostalgia. The car isn't getting a cage, so the plan is to get consistent enough for 12.0s. I do want to crack off the "ideal" pass once, just to say "I have a 10 second, pump gas car" because it was cool 20-25 years ago. Nowadays, 8s are considered "fast", and 6s or 7s are possible.

Gene kerr

The main thing I was asking is what's the most reliable motor to use to make a high 11 second car with car has a Chevy 12 bolt with a 3.55 gear true track now can change gear if needed to as far as stall I dont have yet so i can get what I need plan on using a th400 thought about a 200r4 but haven't got that far on project

fleming442

Given those parameters, I'd go big block to pull the tall gear, unless you can get a really steep 1st in the trans....

Duh

I get what your asking. Unfortunately without a budget you have no answer. It's that simple.

olds80six

My old 455:
.30 over trw pistons, stock rods, n crank with main studs.

Rocket Racing heads with minor clean up work, 950 Holley, 1" hvh spacer. 234-246 @ .050, 112 lsa.
Harland Sharp 1.6 rockers, 2" Kooks headers. 10.1 compressoon.

563hp, 567tq

Ran 10.82 @ 122 in a 3460 1986 cutlass with full pillow power seats, power windows and locks....all the tacky amenities. Only thing missing is heat and power steering. 93 octane, drive anywhere, 6200 through the traps. Dead reliable.

rickw30

​​​​​​
OH YEAH!
That's GETTIN IT !
BBO POWER !

Bernhard

Nice!
How many runs do you have on the engine and did you have any bearing issues running the stock rods and heavy TRW pistons?

New2oldsw30

Bernard, this must be sn OLDS issue as have run years on 427 BBc heavy TRW piston with stock rods and bolts to 8000 RPMS? Not sure if it's the OLDS rods issue, but a 4.280 bore 13-1 piston fo 6.135 long rod would give comp height of 1.695 recall. Those are big heavy pistons.

Lucky I believe my OLDS 455 has Aries piston and aftermarket crank and rods.

coppercutlass

This reminds me of the reher Morrison 362 BBC vs their 377 SBC if I remember correctly . The big block made more power because of the head configuration I believe . Think of the SBO as a destroked big block since you can bolt on big block heads . You find the fine balance between the bore and stroke combo and you can have a great balance of torque and high RPM power. Considering the crappy heads we still have available due to just what the construction limitations limit . You can probably wind an SB stroker up higher with the same head vs a BBO and probably make the same power all while not having a bunch of mass flopping everywhere.

olds80six

It's been a while....like 2008. I believe I had somewhere around 50-70 1/4 mile runs. I would guess around 5k street miles.

Everytime I drove it I gave it a workout. As for bearing issues, I never did. I did a partial trade to a friend for another motor and he pounded on the short block for a season. He pulled it down to put better rods and pistons in it and found one rod bearing half lost its register, yet had no abnormal bearing wear....weird.

pettrix

One thing to take into account is the reality of a street/strip build and the latter of the "strip".

Many racetracks are closing down and the area I live in, the only track in the central state, is closing down in 1 year. No more nearby racetracks within driving distance. All the "strip" cars will have to trailer & tow their cars for hours and hours to get to the nearest racetrack. Which will most likely close down also in a few years. Tracks are closing down on a monthly basis all over the USA. So unless you have a diesel truck with a car trailer, the "strip" part of the car will not be usable and will become obsolete in the near future. Trust me, I hate it, but the writing is on the wall. 1/4 mile tracks are closing down in record numbers and it's getting worse each year.

With that being said. Focus on the STREET part of the car unless you have the money to buy a diesel truck and trailer the vehicle to get to a racetrack. You will get A LOT more enjoyment out of a street car than the once a year of strip use.

Installing 3.90+ gears, a high stall converter and high compression/race gas, will make for a miserable street car. Of course the definition of "street' car runs the gamut to include Street Outlaw Pro Mod vehicles with 2,000+ HP that can run 7's in the 1/4 mile. The reality is those are NOT street cars. A true street car can go down the highway at 70mph, sit in traffic while it's 90F outside, pull up to any gas pump and get premium gas and drive away. All without overheating and breaking down.

Unless you get an overdrive trans. You will have to stick to a 3.42 gear or a max 3.73 gear. A max stall converter around 3,000 RPM to keep the heat buildup to a minimum and a compression ratio that you can run 91 or 93 octane. Even then, a 455 spinning at 3,6000 RPM+ for 30 minutes of highway driving with a 3.73 gear, would really wear on the engine. A slipping (non lockup) high stall converter adds around 300-400 RPM to the engine RPMs when cruising on a highway.

IMHO, build a STREET car unless you have the $$$ to buy a truck and trailer to get towed to the few tracks that are left in most areas.

zekecut70

Unfortunately, its the truth. Long Island had multiple tracks, Shut down... Englishtown, Shutdown... Only one close to me is Lebanon Valley which is 1.5 hrs away.. I believe Island and Atco are hanging in there down in Jersey. But for how long...who knows. Definitely makes you recalibrate thoughts of what is a street/strip build is.

pettrix

Sadly, yes it is the truth.

They are closing the 450 acre Phoenix Firebird Raceway which opened in 1983 and even had a lake for drag boat racing, is closing it's doors forever and being demolished to make way for retail space, a highway and housing. The last NHRA race will take place in 2023 before the track is closed forever, after 4 decades of racing.
https://www.autoweek.com/racing/nhra...-four-decades/

The 250 acre Route 66 Raceway in Joliet, IL which opened in 1998, is also closing down forever. I can proudly say I was there for the grand opening in 1998. Sadly, it has closed since the pandemic and never reopened and it is slated for demolishing and retail/commercial development. I believe Route 66 is one of the nicest tracks I have ever been to. Sad to see it go.

The list goes on and on with tracks that have been around for 40+ years, closing down.

Most guys in my area are converting their "strip" cars back to more streetable cars since the tracks are closing. One could drive down to the track but those days are disappearing and who wants to get a diesel truck and trailer and drive 8+ hours to the closest track to take the car down once a year. The hassle, time, expense in getting a tow rig doesn't make sense.

I read an article that claims 1/4 mile tracks will eventually all be gone within the next 10-20 years, like the typewriter and countless of other things that have disappeared in the past 10-20 years. Only testing facilities for car manufacturers but closed to the general public.

So do yourself a favor and build a STREET car that is fun to drive, reliable and still fast, but don't focus on the strip part of it unless you have the time and money to travel far for a racetrack.

New2oldsw30

I was involved with a extremely fast streetcar, 4.78 in the 1/8 NA street trim (tires and muffler) or 7.50 in the 1/4. Now a bunch of people have commented about street, and I'm sure this has more maintenance then a Tesla to deive, it's still what the owner or myself would call a REAL streetcar that was built to be STUPID fast.
1. He built the car light, ALL aluminum 632 With stacked inject and 2 foggers
2. He built it safe with full 7.50 cage
3. He built it with the best and strongest parts.

But this car HAS cruised a couple Hrs on the Highway, sat in rush hr traffic in Toronto all the while having his young son in the passengers seat. The man is in his mid 50's and this version of the car has been together for about 15 yrs. YES he runs a 4 speed Lenco and Hilbourn stack injection! BUT those 2 very things he has had on a car since grade 12 high school. 35 yrs running stacked injection and a Lenco. Now when he took me for a ride to show me how the Lenco works on the street, best I can explain it is the clutch is just used for stops and starts, rest is more like a manual valve body T400, but doesn't break. He built a bleedoff valve for the fuel system and the car just runs nice. I would say it is probably THE fastest streetcar in Canada. I do know plenty of 10 and 11 second cars that have more issues then him on a day-to-day or yr-to-yr bases.

The car doesn't run hot, doesn't load up and doesn't require the valve cover to be removed very often. The lenco is easier to run then say a Tremac TKO and now high stall like an auto.

Now a couple of my other cars SHOULD run high 8's??? Both are PUMP GAS BBc with dual plane intakes. Heck one even has a gear vendor for the highway. It's a 1967 Nova and it will have power windows and locks, OD and probably AC. Street roller that should be able to drive anywhere. Shop did a 496 El Camino that would cruise for hrs on the highway from Toronto to the big shows in the USA. Run 9's and drive home.

There a lots of fast and really fast streetcar now with todays tech.

fleming442

The term "street car" has been highly debated over decades, and I can't help but think back to the old Car Craft article "10 Worst Racecar Things to do to Your Street Car". Things like roll cage, removing antisway bars, drag shocks and springs littered the list. I'm not saying any of those things are bad ,but they certainly don't do anything for comfort. That's why I really like my car just about as it sits. I don't have to worry about race fuel, it's simple, and fast "enough" for what it is.
If you want stupid fast, I would look at other options beyond the 455 block, like the D, DX, or Rocket Racing. They've got strength built in that you don't have to Band Aid. Get a good crankshaft and keep everything light.

olds80six

My definition of street car is a registered and insured vehicle that you tolerate to drive around in and doesn't overheat.

If it runs on Methanol and has a 25.2 cage and you accept everything that goes with that, cool.

There's plenty of 300 horsepower show car turds that can't hot start, load up at stop lights and get 6 mpg and run 14's. Those are two ends of the spectrum, the street car definition is what you define it to be.

coppercutlass

My cutlass is insured , has no cage yet , stays at 190 on a 90+ degree day .

As far as tracks go I have 4 within 2 hours of me 2 of those are just about 1 hour. Rt 66 was plagued by mis management. My uncle's company did most of the concrete work there.

Although to most cruising at 4k rpm sounds not right. The little 355 is totally at home and isn't even working at 4k rpm. Seems to be it's happy spot to be honest. I did add turbo mufflers to keep the noise down but over all for what my 72 is it has great street manners. The valve train is amazingly quiet for a solid flat tappet.

I'm not trying to sell anyone on my car being for everyone but the only reason I have limited the street driving in my cutlass is because I'd rather save the wear for bracket racing and I daily drive my 77 Pontiac Bonneville coupe which also has an SBO lol. That car is as comfortable as driving my 2010 suburban and maybe run 14's lol. But it gets better MPG's lol.

matt69olds

I don’t want to get political, but there is no way to say this without mentioning politics. It’s my belief that absolute worst thing in government is lobbyist!!!

I don’t understand how anyone can build a housing development near a racetrack, airport, or outdoor music venue and then complain about the noise. It really baffles me that these people file lawsuits and win. I live 25 miles from the oldest drsgstrip in Indiana. Lucky for me, it’s in the middle of mikes of cornfields. Even more lucky is the Air Force base 3 miles from that dragstrip. I’m betting it would MUCH more difficult to get a Air Force base closed because of noise!!

if some of these judges had a backbone and morale conscience, I think a lot of the lawsuits wouldn’t make it to court. But, due to the lobbyist and political favors, the judges don’t dare rule against those who helped get them elected.

Dave Barry commented on one of his books that politicians should be required to wear tags like NASCAR drivers so everyone can see who is paying for whatever their political views are at that moment.