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No the diesel block supply are still available. But have you seen a new aluminum in a SBO platform recently? As far as I know there isn't. So I guess what's your point or do you think this is a bad ideal? I think a up grade is way over due. Jmo
No the diesel block supply are still available. But have you seen a new aluminum in a SBO platform recently? As far as I know there isn't. So I guess what's your point or do you think this is a bad ideal? I think a up grade is way over due. Jmo
why is it even necessary?
the diesel can take anything you can throw at it and the early gas 350 block is more that stout enough to make big power.
What do you think the limitations are on a gas 350 block with just a simple upgrade like aftermarket main caps?
the diesel can take anything you can throw at it and the early gas 350 block is more that stout enough to make big power.
What do you think the limitations are on a gas 350 block with just a simple upgrade like aftermarket main caps?
Not nearly as much as the diesel! Aluminum block would be much lighter ? And 2.5 mains would mean no extra cost for spacers! So what you think the limits would be for that with 4bolt mains?
The problem is you are still using stock stuff. It's not that it's not a good idea but with the rocket block offering big cubes and alot more reliability the only pit fall I see is the heads that are readily available will be a choke point with all those cubes. I think for the all out guy using readily available heads the smaller cube higher rev engines would probably make more power. The only reason I say that is the cylinder head can only fill the cylinder so much I think the smaller bore shorter stroke will still allow the flow needed at 9k rpm . Again it's just a thought because there is a direct connection between the fastest olds being SB based and using wildly altered battens and even then you are still limited not stock bolt locations and what not
With a short deck version of the Rocket block, you can still make 480+ci. Couple that with the new Edelbrock head, and you’d be able to make real decent power.
The problem is you are still using stock stuff. It's not that it's not a good idea but with the rocket block offering big cubes and alot more reliability the only pit fall I see is the heads that are readily available will be a choke point with all those cubes. I think for the all out guy using readily available heads the smaller cube higher rev engines would probably make more power. The only reason I say that is the cylinder head can only fill the cylinder so much I think the smaller bore shorter stroke will still allow the flow needed at 9k rpm . Again it's just a thought because there is a direct connection between the fastest olds being SB based and using wildly altered battens and even then you are still limited not stock bolt locations and what not
I don't disagree but there are plenty of options /bore a small block design if they went aluminum. No need to use half inch bolts. All the big block heads would be useable. As for choke point I don't think that would apply to a SBO as it would have much smaller bore than a big block.. Big blocks only have a choke point in factory design heads and eldebrock heads. Nothing stops if and I do mean if you want to spend $$$$ to have better heads. But this thread is about sbo and I want to try and keep it about that subject.
It is the thought of a all out aluminum engine for SBO platform and like you say 9k rpm that had me thinking. Because of statement that you made Copper I hadn't even considered it till that happened. By Ford comparison what they done it makes even more sense. What is really great mark has cranks for this type of venture! Have you seen what Payton hunt is doing he is making a custom head. My thoughts are next level SBO head for the hunt dragster.
Last edited by wr1970; January 22nd, 2022 at 10:47 AM.
The problem is you are still using stock stuff. It's not that it's not a good idea but with the rocket block offering big cubes and alot more reliability the only pit fall I see is the heads that are readily available will be a choke point with all those cubes. I think for the all out guy using readily available heads the smaller cube higher rev engines would probably make more power. The only reason I say that is the cylinder head can only fill the cylinder so much I think the smaller bore shorter stroke will still allow the flow needed at 9k rpm . Again it's just a thought because there is a direct connection between the fastest olds being SB based and using wildly altered battens and even then you are still limited not stock bolt locations and what not
Someone needs to build better flowing heads. The Batten's for all their problems. just shoot right into the cylinder. And valve size are 2.20 now, looks like you can go bigger. And in some of the fastest Old's, Small and big blocks. Engine Masters season 6 Ep 92. Screaming 8K RPM!!. pay the money and watch. very interesting. But take with a grain of salt.
The problem is you are still using stock stuff. It's not that it's not a good idea but with the rocket block offering big cubes and alot more reliability the only pit fall I see is the heads that are readily available will be a choke point with all those cubes. I think for the all out guy using readily available heads the smaller cube higher rev engines would probably make more power. The only reason I say that is the cylinder head can only fill the cylinder so much I think the smaller bore shorter stroke will still allow the flow needed at 9k rpm . Again it's just a thought because there is a direct connection between the fastest olds being SB based and using wildly altered battens and even then you are still limited not stock bolt locations and what not
You makes some valid points. It really comes down to application. In a drag race application making HP up high to take advantage of gearing is a benefit. On a street motor not so much. On a road course circuit you need something in between. Piston speed has a direct impact on how a port works. This is why small stroke engines need to turn higher RPM to get the piston speed needed to maximize the port. The added benefit of higher RPM is RPM dictates the rate that work is being done. Even if absolute work per cycle is less, if you do more of it in the same period of time your total can be greater. A long stroke doesn't have to spin as high to get the same piston speed. The down side of the longer stroke is too much piston speed. That can cause too much velocity through the port that can hamper flow especially with the transition of the port runner to bowl on an Olds head with stock port location. It's all about application. There are alot of other things to consider that have an impact on the above statement. My theory is do what makes you happy. Have fun with what you can do. Personally I have no patience so I slap my junk together as cheaply as I can and as fast as I can to meet my goal. In the end I have fun.
Last edited by Duh; January 22nd, 2022 at 11:43 AM.
Someone needs to build better flowing heads. The Batten's for all their problems. just shoot right into the cylinder. And valve size are 2.20 now, looks like you can go bigger. And in some of the fastest Old's, Small and big blocks. Engine Masters season 6 Ep 92. Screaming 8K RPM!!. pay the money and watch. very interesting. But take with a grain of salt.
Are you reading? Battens may be a thing of the past very soon! But that isn't what the subject is about. You haven't seen pictures of Payton Hunts head's have you? Now that is clear back to the SBO thread.
Not nearly as much as the diesel! Aluminum block would be much lighter ? And 2.5 mains would mean no extra cost for spacers! So what you think the limits would be for that with 4bolt mains?
Not nearly as much? Then use the plentiful diesel.
the 350 gas block is very light for its size compared to other engines of similar cubes .
the 350 gas block compared to the 455 block is actually a stronger piece.
the 350 has a shorter deck height which means the cyl walls have more support over its length.
it’s cyl walls are very thick…the main webbing is beefier just because it’s mains are smaller.
the 350 gas block can support MORE power than the 455 block with the same prep..that’s a fact.
look at that 403 on here that just made 680 , that’s with paper thin cyl walls compared to the 350 and windowed mains…it had a girdle.
with that known, there is no reason the early 350 gas block can’t support 800, 900 or a 1000 hp.
Show me a 350 gas block from the factory 900/1000 n/a how about 800 who has one.
what the heck are you babbling about?
I said the early gas 350 block is stout enough to handle that. You don’t need to be an aerospace engineer to figure it out.
look at the facts I posted…it’s actually stronger than a 455 block,, N/A has nothing to do with it..hp is hp wether it’s boosted , sprayed or N/A
The deck is much shorter, which equals a stronger cyl wall, the cyl walls are thicker, and the main bearing area only has a 2.5” diameter hole through the main line instead of 3”
all that equates to strength…If a big block can be built to to make a 1000hp, or more, and it’s been done..the SB can too. I’m this case bigger is weaker, smaller is stronger.
you’re getting mixed up between if there is one out there , or if it can take it. It can…but because the Diesel block is so plentiful, that’s the route people go.
Last edited by CANADIANOLDS; January 22nd, 2022 at 07:44 PM.
One member on ROP was over 900 HP, Turbo I believe, with a gas 350 block. Everyone was waiting for him to to drive over thr crank, it never died and I believe he went diesel after a number of passes. Even at BTR's 650 HP estimate, few of us will be over that. Then there is the D, DX and the non and siamese Nascar block, not far off a Rocket block, if you have the time and money to find one. Would an aluminum 350 block be nice? Absolutely but at what cost? Hell most LS builds are the iron truck blocks. The 350 is durable, our 75 Cutlass survived high speed ditch driving and similar abuse, over 300,000 miles before being scrapped and someone bought it drove it another few years. I remember my ex BIL 81 GMC 1/2 ton with an Olds 350. The orginal diesel died and he blew up two 1970 455"s. His parents paid for the Olds 350 swap and took the truck away, he was very destructive. It was a 1975 350 and one of the few oil burners. I remember him bagging it so hard. Getting stuck, he would just hold it to the floor until it stalled after what felt like 5 minutes. Those two and our 81 Delta 88's 307 that last 450,000 km are why I love the SB Olds, have since we got the "Beast" in late 1985, our Cutlass 4 door. I will NEVER EVER run anything else in a GM product. The Rocket Racing block is an answer BBO guys have been waiting decades for. I have never heard of any stock 455 block run 7500 rpm without eventual destruction. Copper is turning the occasional 7K on heavy Speedpro pistons, soft stock rods and an N crank! Try that in a 455. How many failed 350 builds on here and other forums? You can count them on one hand. You better take off your shoes and socks for the BBO. Isn't a minimum run of blocks needed before this could even be considered? Sure a siamese SBO in aluminum with a copy of the Rocket Racing bottom end with priority main oiling would be great but I don't see it happening.
My current engine machinist told me. Engines are like humans. If you have extra weight and don't do anything to help carry it and start running a mile at a time to get in shape . It's gonna hurt. Now if you are light skinny and thin and start running you will probably hurt less after a 1 mile run out of the blue. Big dudes have a harder time breathing. That might not translate 1 to 1 on an engine just kind of a funny comparison that's is some what ironically on point to an extent
Marks work building the strokers with the cranks he has should prove alot about them . They all make great numbers without even pushing the limits of the components. I. Leaning towards a stroker bottom end my self because .... Well I need an engine in the car that can last a long time as my building endeavours are coming to some what to an end as I'm focusing on racing more. I know the stroker set up isn't needed so to speak but the fact the components are better and stronger with a block that's pretty stout is what's appealing to me . I don't mind spinning my stuff to the moon. I lm going into season 4 of street and race duty with my set up and it has over 150 passes and 2500 street miles. I wind it up to 7k and cruise around 4k rpm.
Yeah Copper, you will be running less weight and be much stronger with stroker assembly, top to bottom. Of course then it will be screaming for the new Edelbrock heads. I went way overboard on my maybe 400 hp build for long term reliability with different goals. Long distance drives for many years, not get beat by every car on the road, any oil off the shelf, good to excellent hot oil pressure, superior ring seal, decent mpg, an occasional 1/8 or 1/4 mile track run and 5500+ rpm being like a walk in the park. Hell, a bunch of us will be happy if Edelbrock can deliver products when promised, let alone a new aluminum block.
I said the early gas 350 block is stout enough to handle that. You don’t need to be an aerospace engineer to figure it out.
look at the facts I posted…it’s actually stronger than a 455 block,, N/A has nothing to do with it..hp is hp wether it’s boosted , sprayed or N/A
The deck is much shorter, which equals a stronger cyl wall, the cyl walls are thicker, and the main bearing area only has a 2.5” diameter hole through the main line instead of 3”
all that equates to strength…If a big block can be built to to make a 1000hp, or more, and it’s been done..the SB can too. I’m this case bigger is weaker, smaller is stronger.
you’re getting mixed up between if there is one out there , or if it can take it. It can…but because the Diesel block is so plentiful, that’s the route people go.
You need to quit flapping about what the 350 gas block can take! It's a matter of proving it. Several have proven d/ DX/ nascar blocks and have made horse power at those levels or close. Not a early 350 gas block has been shown that I have seen. Tester said his was around 900 and it was a Nascar block. Tester's motor was n/a. I am not mixed up about anything . As for boosted ,sprayed hp haven't seen one of those going as fast as Paul unless it was a d/DX/ nascar block. All i want to see is facts that what has been done not theory in someone's mind.
Last edited by wr1970; January 23rd, 2022 at 10:55 AM.
I think 307 gave a good example . But engines theory by design is kind unarguable . It's simple facts that smaller journal diameter is better I mean look at Nascar engines. It's also a proven fact the sbo can take more abuse with less ( work ) than a bbo. Again you can't spin a 455 to 7k without serious work. My current engine just has ARP main bolts , stock rods , stock crank. I kiss 7k rpm all the time. We kissed 7k rpm once in the burnout box with that bbo I built a year ago ( our fault ) and we spun 2 rod bearings. 🤣🤣🤣
I think 307 gave a good example . But engines theory by design is kind unarguable . It's simple facts that smaller journal diameter is better I mean look at Nascar engines. It's also a proven fact the sbo can take more abuse with less ( work ) than a bbo. Again you can't spin a 455 to 7k without serious work. My current engine just has ARP main bolts , stock rods , stock crank. I kiss 7k rpm all the time. We kissed 7k rpm once in the burnout box with that bbo I built a year ago ( our fault ) and we spun 2 rod bearings. 🤣🤣🤣
Well you can now with the rocket racing block down to 7k. And there was 455 factory blocks that went 7k with a girdle . Kissing 7 k copper but over reving doesn't mean used correctly to get results. The 350 D or DX / nascar for block at seven k would exceed your gas motor no offense as I think you have done very well . There was a guy who spun a diesel using a diesel crank think he went 9's. This thread is about aluminum block 350 being built to exceed what a gas 350 would plus light weight all I hear negative. And guys can't figure out why nobody wants to make parts. If Cutlassefi thought like this was parts going to be made! How about Rocket Racing! The weight saving alone would make a difference in ET. Not to mention parts are available. Stands to reason that a new generation of engines are appearing and most likely faster for Oldsmobile.
Last edited by wr1970; January 23rd, 2022 at 12:44 PM.
Again the bigger cube engines will have limitations specially with air flow. The smaller bore shorter stroke engines will not tax the heads as much so personally so adding cubic inches to heads that still are a limiting factor will pose an issue at some point to some extent. Keep in mind if the cylinder head restricts the cylinder it can only draw on so much air. Smaller bore shorter stroke will also pose an issue at higher engine speeds but I feel this is probably why the DX builds ran better they heads where not as much of a restriction due to the smaller bore and stroke.
This is why I use Ford as an example the cleaveland is a big block but has similar pit falls to the BBO. But guys have been putting cleaveland heads on the Windsors for some time now because the heads are worlds apart from the Windsor units. Canted valves and all that good stuff. But also to support my small cube high rev stuff within the Ford bunch the SBF Windsor strokers reign king for the most part over big block fords.
This is why I like to use Ford to compare our brand in this situation. Everyone is going for the cubic inches but I think unless we get a readily available better head reconfiguring stuff I think the smaller cube high rev stuff is what the all out olds guy needs.
Last edited by coppercutlass; January 23rd, 2022 at 01:03 PM.
It would be great if it could get done, sorry if we sound negative. Guys don't even want to keep their original 350, quite a few dump them for a 455, it is an uphill battle unfortunately.
In short., cubic inches sell and everyone feels they will go faster. And yeah they probably will but you are gonna hit a point where you can't overcome the obstacle of air restriction . I get a small block is not as marketable as a new 455 block with the potential to overcome your personal short comings. I don't think we will see a short deck version ( SB ) everyone still dumps the 350 for the 455.
Again the bigger cube engines will have limitations specially with air flow. The smaller bore shorter stroke engines will not tax the heads as much so personally so adding cubic inches to heads that still are a limiting factor will pose an issue at some point to some extent. Keep in mind if the cylinder head restricts the cylinder it can only draw on so much air. Smaller bore shorter stroke will also pose an issue at higher engine speeds but I feel this is probably why the DX builds ran better they heads where not as much of a restriction due to the smaller bore and stroke.
This is why I use Ford as an example the cleaveland is a big block but has similar pit falls to the BBO. But guys have been putting cleaveland heads on the Windsors for some time now because the heads are worlds apart from the Windsor units. Canted valves and all that good stuff. But also to support my small cube high rev stuff within the Ford bunch the SBF Windsor strokers reign king for the most part over big block fords.
This is why I like to use Ford to compare our brand in this situation. Everyone is going for the cubic inches but I think unless we get a readily available better head reconfiguring stuff I think the smaller cube high rev stuff is what the all out olds guy needs.
doesn't seem to be a problem with a 403 recently built. And some guys think not possible and yet it happened. Quite impressive.
I think your SBF comparison is a good example. It is exactly why Cutlassefi pointed out the 351W builds on his Dyno mule 358 thread that got totally derailed as usual.
I think the 403 wr1970 is talking about is the Dr Dan build. 650 ish HP . Impressive in deed but remember with that 4 inch stroke your rod will be changed . The crank is probably a little more stable considering the rod travel on the throws as far as what's being tossed around at the throw end of the crank. Probably makes that 403 a little sturdier.
If you take a look at that 403 build ... It's almost like a de stroked BBO exc. The earlier big blocks with he commonly sought after forged crank.
Last edited by coppercutlass; January 23rd, 2022 at 01:44 PM.
I think the 403 wr1970 is talking about is the Dr Dan build. 650 ish HP . Impressive in deed but remember with that 4 inch stroke your rod will be changed . The crank is probably a little more stable considering the rod travel on the throws as far as what's being tossed around at the throw end of the crank. Probably makes that 403 a little sturdier.
If you take a look at that 403 build ... It's almost like a de stroked BBO exc. The earlier big blocks with he commonly sought after forged crank.
Just to be clear you wouldn't limit a new aluminum block to 350 cubes. You would take lessons learned to a new level. 350 might be the starting point but what you could do with boring could be a new animal. Just saying. Many opportunities and options.
You need to quit flapping about what the 350 gas block can take! It's a matter of proving it. Several have proven d/ DX/ nascar blocks and have made horse power at those levels or close. Not a early 350 gas block has been shown that I have seen. Tester said his was around 900 and it was a Nascar block. Tester's motor was n/a. I am not mixed up about anything . As for boosted ,sprayed hp haven't seen one of those going as fast as Paul unless it was a d/DX/ nascar block. All i want to see is facts that what has been done not theory in someone's mind.
You think the Olds engine works starts and ends with what you heard about?
Reread what I initially said..two or three times if it takes that many times for it to sink in. I said the diesel would be the easy choice but the 350 gas block can take a lot of power.
so first it’s the diesel, then the gas 350. But you guys are hoping for an aluminum version because, well, you don’t need one in your world.
is that what’s stopping you from building a big power small block? That’s hilarious.
you have two options now, one capable of staying together at 2000 hp, the other can take more than you could ever dream of.
but go ahead and bitch because there isn’t a small block available
Mr Canadian ... Capable and making it happen are 2 different things. No one has beat the small block strokers DX/Nascar block builds that have been the fastest to date. I don't care what car they are in I want E/T numbers posted . I don't see 2k happening N/A. Maybe boosted.
Well you can now with the rocket racing block down to 7k. And there was 455 factory blocks that went 7k with a girdle . Kissing 7 k copper but over reving doesn't mean used correctly to get results. The 350 D or DX / nascar for block at seven k would exceed your gas motor no offense as I think you have done very well . There was a guy who spun a diesel using a diesel crank think he went 9's. This thread is about aluminum block 350 being built to exceed what a gas 350 would plus light weight all I hear negative. And guys can't figure out why nobody wants to make parts. If Cutlassefi thought like this was parts going to be made! How about Rocket Racing! The weight saving alone would make a difference in ET. Not to mention parts are available. Stands to reason that a new generation of engines are appearing and most likely faster for Oldsmobile.
what a clown you are..because someone blows your need for an aluminum block down the toilet, you say it’s negative?
what have you ever done to make you think you need a new aluminum small block that cant be done with the blocks available now?
let’s hear about your accomplishments in the Olds engine world..they must be quite something.
when you show us you broken either of the blocks available now, I’ll change my mind 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Mr Canadian ... Capable and making it happen are 2 different things. No one has beat the small block strokers DX/Nascar block builds that have been the fastest to date. I don't care what car they are in I want E/T numbers posted . I don't see 2k happening N/A. Maybe boosted.
you want to show me where I said they aren’t ?
quote where I said any of that garbage.
the 2000hp is a small block twin turbo… you guys have reading comprehension issues,, I’m making the case FOR small blocks, two factory options, that are capable of anything you can throw at them.
Last edited by CANADIANOLDS; January 23rd, 2022 at 03:30 PM.
You misunderstood me. You made claims of the rocket block holding up to 2000 HP which no one has done . That claim has been made based on manufacturing not actual testing. . That's what I was getting at. Relax sir it's not that big of a deal. We sit here and talk about reliability but they majority of the cars we call fast in our olds world fall into the mid to low 10 sec range . Guys have been doing that with reliability for a while now. So for the average guy the stock stuff is still plenty. I prefer the SBO in that arena because of its construction and capabilities over the BBO. The rocket block brings alot to the table. Sooooo much no one has really tapped into it outside of a few people. And by that I mean running some serious numbers. Anything low 9's and faster in the olds world is considered amazing still . And those cars are few and far and in between.
January 22nd, 2022, 08:00 AM
