Johnny Cage

I have a 1984 buick lesabre with the 307 olds, 80k on it. I bought the car and it isn’t running right because the kid put a non computerized distributer on it. It does not have to go through emissions. So not knowing if the carb needs to be rebuilt. would it be easier to bypass the computer? Im under the impression that I can get a non-ccc carb? (any sources to purchase one is appreciated)
do i need a new intake manifold for this?
How have people got the transmission to go into overdrive without the computer?

Thank you for any help

captjim

IMO you are better off just getting a CCC HEI distributor and calling it a day. Bypassing the ECM is a PITA and there really aren't any gains to be made.

Johnny Cage

how difficult is it to tune the car. if the non computered distributer has been running on it. I'm just thinking if i get the ccc distr, then it may not fix the car bogging down. Im on a budget, but if you think that the ccc distrb. will work, then its worth a shot

captjim

You did not mention a "bog" in your original post, you stated "it isn’t running right because the kid put a non computerized distributer on it."

Johnny Cage

I'm sorry your right. I guess im just assuming that the non-ccc distr. was my issue. The car will idle fine. but when in gear and trying to drive forward. it will accelerate, but it will bogg down bad and want to stall out. and on hills under no gas it will try to die out. Any clue to what the issue maybe.

my names ron as well.
Thank you

Johnny Cage

I talked to the person i purchased from. he said that the carb was giving him issues before he installed the distributor. So as far as budgeting to get the car driving(fuel economy isnt an issue). Could i not, put a non-ccc carb on the motor and rig the transmission to go into overdrive?

Oldsmaniac

Your problem could be your lockup conveerter solenoid in the trans. It makes the engine feel sluggish if stuck on.

captjim

Not sure where you live, but you should be able to snag a CCC carb and dist pretty cheap. Ditching the ECM can snowball into a bunch of headaches.

Johnny Cage

I live on the shoreline in CT. The car will drive, but it seems to flood out under acceleration. The car also has no cats on it. IDK if that matters.

henryk8398

Ok, where to begin? I'm seeing all kinds of issues here, and I'm sure we don't have the whole story. There probably lots of mickey mouse stuff you need to undo if you want to get it to run well.

If you have a non-ccc distributor, the rest of the CCC will run in limp-home mode. That means full rich! Until the computer is happy, you're not going to get any further diagnosing your car, unless you intend to ditch the CCC. I agree with captjim; I'd keep the ECM if it works. If you want to go lose the CCC system, you will need a non-ccc carb. To control the torque converter lockup without an ECM, check Summit Racing. They have kits to control that. While diagnosing, you may consider disconnecting the 4-pin square connector on the side of the trans. If you are having lockup solenoid issues (lots of stalling at low speed and idle), it will cure it. Some advise against driving around too long without the connector plugged in, but I've heard of others drive for years without it.

That would explain the bogging. If that was my car, here's what I would do:

1. Find a CCC dist, install and time it per the Factory Service manual. You should be able to find instructions on-line, too. Should be easy to find in a salvage yard or parts store. Lots of choices. I'm any 307 car up to 1990 should work.

2. Inspect the condition of all filters (air/fuel/etc), breathers, vacuum lines, fuel lines, spark plug wires, distributor cap, rotor, etc. In other words, give the car some old-school TLC!

3. Once you've done that, you will want to pull the trouble codes from your ECM and see what else needs to be fixed.

4. Now start looking into the carb. CCC-Carbs work very well, BUT ONLY IF THEY ARE ADJUSTED CORRECTLY. You need to adjust (and likely overhaul) your carb per the service manual, TO THE LETTER. You should be able to find instructions for that on-line, too.


These are some great Olds 307 resources:

http://performanceolds307.tripod.com/

http://tlentz.oldsgmail.com/more_power.html

We're here to help, so ask away!

Johnny Cage

thank you for all of your responses. I look under hood more. and i am missing alot of hoses and there is a lot of jerry rigged wires goin everywhere. i dont hav the whole story on this car. i think i am goin to bypass the comp for now. let you know thnkas

Johnny Cage

what i do know is he replaced the distrib. plugs wires, fluid change on tranny, new exhaust, new alter., I think he was just trying to replace a bunch of stuff to get it to run better

henryk8398

And likely having no idea as to what's needed to make the ECM work.

Are you sure that the distributor is non-CCC? Does it have a vacuum advance can on the side? If it does not, then you might have the correct distributor after all. The CCC dist has a 4-wire harness coming out the side instead of the silver canister.

How about some pictures of under the hood, without the air cleaner?

I also wanted to mention that not having the cats should not be an issue. Since the car isn't running right, you have a chance of damaging them (too much fuel), so you're better off without them. If you don't have to emissions test the car, don't put them back on.

Johnny Cage

Ill try to get some pictures after work today. Just going off memory, I did not see any vacuum lines from the distributor. I did see a connection point where a green wire and brown wire came down off the side. so maybe it is the ccc distributor.

so could it just be the transmission solenoid?

because the car idles fine.

If i buy a new or rebuilt computerized carb, would it still need tuning(I doubt it would come pretuned) If not im sure i can find a site online.


Thank you Thank you for the help. No one around here knows anything about carbs, i work in a foriegn car part place

henryk8398

No, the transmission solenoid would not do that. It would cause rough idle and stalling. Take a picture of the distributor for sure. You also need to make sure any wiring coming off of the dist. is connected to something.

Don't bother with a rebuilt carb from a parts store. Most are butchered and made to be "one size fits all". Good luck getting one to run well. Have yours rebuilt by a carburetor shop or do it yourself. No matter who rebuilds it, always check the adjustments. A good rebuilder will adjust it, but never assume anything. Here is some info about rebuilding an EM4C/E4ME (Electronic Quadrajets):


http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/ca...-ccc-qjet.html
http://www.tocmp.com/manuals/Carbs/R...QJet/index.htm

That should give you an idea of what's involved. I'm not sure how mechanically inclined you are, knowing that would help.

Also wondering, is your "Check engine" light on?

Lady72nRob71

Well said. The CCC allows for good drivability. If wanting the last couple HP from the 307, then ditching the computer can help, but the gains are not much (or worth it in my opinion).

It should not because the single O2 sensor is before the cat. There is not before and after sensors in this CCC version.
HOWEVER, if the exhaust is very low backpressure, the EGR valve may not function correctly. It requires some BP to work.

Yes, even if it fits the car.
You would be better off rebuilding your old one. If you or somone you know can build model kits, they can do this! I will help walk you through it if you want to do it yourself.
OR you can send it to a good carb rebuilder and for 200-400 bucks it will be good as new. Some slight tweaks might still need to be made though depending on engine condition.

Johnny Cage

Johnny Cage

ya the trans thing didnt help. worth a shot though. drove down the street. idles fine. then any gas in gear it bogs down. put in netrual as i went, it will rev up without bogging.

Johnny Cage

noticed the egr hose wasnt hooked up to the air filter housing either

henryk8398

At a glance, I don't see anything obviously disconnected. In fact, your carb doesn't look as bad as I thought.

Let me get this straight:

1. Good idle
2. Revs up fine in neutral/park
3. Hesitates/Bogs in gear

I'm very suspicious of the secondary adjustment on your carb. It sounds like the spring holding it open is broken and it's opening upon acceleration. Take a look at this:

http://www.73-87.com/7387garage/drivetrain/myqjet.htm
Go down to the section titled "Setting The Air Valve Spring Tension"

If you know what you are doing, you can check the adjustment and you might find that all is well.

If you look at the picture on the right, you'll see a yellow arrow pointing to a spring. It's very possible that spring is either broken or misadjusted. If you need a new one, they are available new from here and other places:

http://quadrajetparts.com/rochester-...ing-p-171.html


Finally, two questions:

1. Do you have a check engine light on?

2. When you are driving full throttle at a higher (45+ mph), does the engine ever smooth out?

Lady72nRob71

EGR should not be connected there... A good picture of your engine bay without the air cleaner will be helpful.

Johnny Cage

Ill check that spring when im out of work. thank you.

I have no check engine light on

and i havn't made it to 45mph yet

im also goin to check all the vacuums as well,

and if my friend has his phone. a better picture

thank you

joe_padavano

Where to start? The CCC system is EXTREMELY sensitive to any minor vacuum leak or improperly connected hose. It MUST be hooked up correctly and you MUST follow the adjustment process in the Chassis Service Manual EXACTLY. If you don't, it will never run right. If you do, it runs great.

You can also eliminate the computer, which means you must use a non-CCC distributor and Qjet. It also means that you will need to get an alternate converter lockup system (the trans shifts into OD just fine, but the lockup is computer controlled). 1984 SHOULD have the switch on the accelerator pedal for the A/C compressor cutout, so that will work fine without the computer. If you don't have the switch, then you A/C may not work without the computer unless you rewire the clutch circuit.

Johnny Cage

So i attempted to adjust the A/V spring tension. (Im under impression that it is located on top left side, where vacuum connects to the secondary part of carb) Need a bigger pic lol.

but from what I am seeing is no adjestment screw. the secondary side has alot of slop and no spring tension at all. Im thinking this is infact the issue goin on. i could be mistaken though.

ThePackRat

There is a small set screw (allen head) up underneath that unlocks the tension screw itself.

Johnny Cage

ok that picture helped alot. i found the screw and the allan locker. when i back the screw out the secondary cant fall open, because the level is in the way. any help on how to remove that. i tried but no sucess.

more importantly the screw just keeps spinning infinatly to the right. even when the allan locker is tight. New spring?? maybe

thanks for everyones help so far!

ThePackRat

I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean.

Are you working on the motor cold & possibly referring to the lil' tang that works in conjunction with the choke ... that locks out the secondaries from opening until it's warmed up ?.

Possibly.

I forget the nitty-gritty details of what happens when they do that.

Don't know if it's always a broken spring or if the spring simply gets off-kilter so to speak from over-tightening of the screw & just needs to be put back in the correct manner.

The only thing I do seem to vaguely recall is ...
(again vague so standard disclaimer applies)

It's a PITA to deal with having the carb on the motor in the car & you never really want to have to "go there".

Perhaps someone's who's "been there done that" can tell you if it can or can't be fixed on the car.

With any luck I'm wrong & it's easier to fix ... but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

Definitely sounds like you found your problem tho.

henryk8398

I'm not sure what you mean. What is the "level". You may need to finagle around it. But it should move enough to adjust. Something may be rusted/gummed up.


You're welcome! Take a small mirror, like the kind a dentist uses (you can get a similar type at an auto parts/hardware store). Look where the set screw is to see if the spring is engaged at all. It sounds like it isn't. It's either off or broken.

It should look like this:

http://www.73-87.com/7387garage/driv...lock_screw.jpg

HERE'S AN IDEA: Duct tape your secondaries shut. If it stops bogging, you know you're on the right track!

Once you check/replace all your vacuum lines, I think it's in your best interest to overhaul your carb.

Also, you mentioned that you have no check engine light. Does the light come on for a few seconds when you start the car? If not you could have a bad/disconnected lamp or lamp driver. Someone could have removed it because they didn't want to deal with the ECM. Just a thought.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Johnny Cage

I meant to say Lever (not level). I have to go in between that, to get to the adjustment screw. may be gummed up like stated.

My lock screw is located at the top though, in the pictures it seems that it should be underneath.

I do not remember check engine light coming on on start up, but when i drove it back the night i bought it, when it stalled out on the hill, all the center panel lights went on.

Ill try to duck tape them shut and see if that stops the bogging.

I started to ask around to see if there are any shops that hav experience with qjets or carb rebuilds.

Is there a place that i can purchase a rebuild kit online?
Are there any vaccum parts or sensors i should change while in there?

(I am temped to pull the carb off and rebuild. i can follow instructions, but it seems i may hav to have someone more experienced do this for me)

Thanks again, you guys are awesome

Johnny Cage

also i ordered the spring incase i need new one. is it possible to put spring back on without removing the carb?

henryk8398

Your lock screw is on top? How about a picture of the area?

Here is how to verify if it works or not.

http://freeautomechanic.com/diagnostictroblecodes5.html

First off, where do you live? See if there is a reputable carburetor shop in your area. There are still a couple around here.

If you want to do the overhaul yourself, you can get a kit locally. Any decent auto parts store should be able to get one. Install the new kit (gaskets, seals, etc), replace the float, and fuel filter.

Before tearing into the carb, make sure you check your trouble codes. It's unlikely, but you may need to replace your throttle position sensor and or mixture control solenoid. They are all available new.

In all honesty, if you can afford it, send it out for a rebuild. Make sure the address all issues the carb has.

Johnny Cage

ya its on top, i found it weird cuz all pictures show underneath

i called a shop who knows how to work on them. so if i need to they can do it

he said though maybe better off buying a new one, cuz the tuning of the tps takes lik 2-3 hrs

i found one on summit for 299.99 http://www.summitracing.com/search/P...FUff4AodGUgA5A

im goin to try the spring, then maybe order the new carb

thank you again

henryk8398

2-3 hours to tune a TPS? That doesn't make sense at all. If that's what they said, then go somewhere else.

I really like the work this place does:

http://www.quadrajetcarburetors.com/...g-service.html

If you give them a call, talk to Dennis. He's very nice. They are not cheap, but they will do everything the carb needs. They repair all sorts of issues the casting develop over time. They will unwarp the castings, replace throttle shaft bushings, etc. They are located in Denver.

Here's a shop in California:

http://carburetorfactory.com/rebuild.php

So once again,

Where are you located?

That way we can help you find a place to send the carb.

Johnny Cage

Long thread, but im on the shoreline of Connecticut

I taped the secondary shut and it shutters a little then smooths out and drives better like that.

Rickman48

Adjusting the secondary air door can be done on the car, as I've done it many times!
The trick is to have the correct allen wrench for the setscrew, and a small enough screwdriver for the adjustment.
Yes, it's a PAI, but make sure you cover the fender - I use moving blankets.
I usually adjust so it takes maybe an ounce of pressure to open, take it for a ride - if it bogs, tighten a little more, repeat until it goes away.
Make sure the timing is correct and idle to the highest vacuum possible.
I pop the caps on the CCC's for idle adjustment.

bdub217

Shouldn't all adjustments to the carb be made on a cold engine? As in sat overnight and adjust in the morning?
Or is it okay to make adjustments after getting it hot, I ask because when it's cold the engine acts differently than when it's hot and been running a while...so hot adjustments in my eyes would mean you are not getting a "true adjustment" on the carb. Maybe I thought about that one too much...it's early for me.

Johnny Cage

I got to adjust the secondary, but the spring is no good. im waiting on new spring in the mail. was wondering if the new screw could be installed without removal of carb

the picture is to show that my lock screw is on top, and not on the bottom

thanks again

henryk8398

That's not the lockscrew. That screw one of 13 air horn to bowl screws. Look underneath with a small mirror. Either way, if it's running better with the secondaries shut, you've found at least one culprit. With the secondaries taped shut, will it get over 45? I'm guessing your accelerator pump is shot, too. To replace that, you will need to disassemble at least partially.


I'm not sure if the spring can be replaced with the carb on the engine. You would need to almost completely back out the set screw UNDERNEATH, not the one one top. There is the flat-headed adjustment that is spring-loaded. That needs to come out, then you should be able to remove the spring. I imagine it would be a pain to
replace without at least removing the carb. I've never tried it still on the car.

ThePackRat

As stated by henryk ... that's an air horn screw.

Those (2) pics I posted a few posts back clearly show you exactly what you are looking for & where they are.

Johnny Cage

Ok i see that now. I'm awaiting funds to buy the new carb for the car. While I have the old car off and when i got to install the new one. are there any other parts i should replace.

I hav to buy the gasket for the new carb, they dont come with. I have a new secondary spring for the carb.

ordering new shocks and just replaced brakes

Thanks all