coppercutlass

It's getting new bearings , cam, prw sfi flexplate, prof. products balancer. rings etc. Everything else is previously slightly enjoyed lol.

olds 307 and 403

These pictures were helpful to see where my #8's need ported. I have some 4A heads in the corner that will give me 2" intake valves. I sent an email to the local machine shop for prices to get my 403, 424 ci stroker done. The 350 in my 4x4 is going south, using and leaking oil plus either the cam or a lifter is shot. The other 350 runs great in the 88 CSC, it will go nicely into the 4x4 . I was going to go early heads on the 350 but buy the time I get a set shipped or pick up another motor, it will be a good chunk of $$$ toward machine work. It will be on a tight budget and be right at 9 to 1 compression.

rktolds

I like the direction of your build. I am planning something similar. I'm collecting parts for SBO to replace my 455 when the kids start driving. I have already sourced most of the parts from local friends and on here. Keep the pics and info coming.

coppercutlass

Olds307and403 are you talking about the pictures of the #8's I put up. Also I have to thank j-chicago for the advice on where to grind. When I picked those up from his place he showed me the places where they needed to be opened up the most. As for now sticking with the #6 heads is they way I'm going even if I stick a few hundred into them they have had some nice work done to them previously. Well atleast before I messed up the 3 guides lol. Lessoned learned on that.

olds 307 and 403

Yes the number 8's. Pretty obivious the exhaust bowl under the valve needs opening, I will open them up as much as possible. I am thinking of tear dropping the guide bosses, air bumps and maybe shortside and bowl roof. You are going to have around 10.5 to 1 with the Probes, pretty high. I will eventually move up to Procomp heads, just out of my budget now. I will probably deal with Cutlassefi for my parts. I know he won't steer me wrong and doesn't play games. I only need main bearings, main studs, cam, lifters, matching springs, retainers,timing set, gaskets, coil and tuning kit for my Mallory distributor. I some how lost all the springs out of the last one. I will also get a 1/4" no machine 4 main girdle from J+S Machine. I currently shift at 4800, might up it to 5000-5500 rpm. The pistons and rods are much lighter than the stock parts, huge bonus for a weak block. I need to decide if stock 1800 stall convertor will cut it, maybe a low 2000 stall would suffice.

coppercutlass

My compression will be under 10 to 1. Closer to 9.5 the chambers have been polished smooth and not milled. And since I'm building for nitrous I need a bigger quench area or so that's what I have gathered from many high perf sites. So building a .025 deck with a .040 gasket should leave me with a good quench area for running on the bottle but I have to confirm that first. My current 355 Is 10 to 1 with flat tops speed pro's hopefully that combo will atleast scratch the 12 sec range but I will find out next spring. I spent all summer messing around tracking down noises and putting miles on the engine. The block I'm using with the studs and straps is a std. Deck height. I'm not using the zero deck block I started with. I may finish up those number 8's depends on which way I can go or decide to go. I gotta do a little more research before anything is machined and set in stone so to speak.

380 Racer

I was going to tell you why I wouldn't do ANY motor like you are bragging about.........but you won't listen anyway. I will chuckle when it grenades.

coppercutlass

Why would it gernade. Jim ran a nitrous engine with no bottom end support I'm not running a big shot I'm just going to run a 100 shot. I'm starting out with goodparts and having everything checked and proceeding with building a nice mild nitrous engine. What's wrong with that I really would like to know if you got nothing better to say other than you hope it blows up then f*** off . I don't have the money to buy everything new but I make the best of what I got and can get. To top it off I'm having a blast doing it and learning to do it my self as much as possible even if it is trial and error at my expense. So with all due respect go f****** your self with a 9 iron. Also what you did there I would consider trolling. You got rid of the car now you are bored I get it don't take it out on me. Also I rather build my own stuff and if it fails find out why. Unlike you you paid someone it failed then paid someone else to fix it.

J-(Chicago)

Easy does it, men.

Nick, He's a sharp kid with a willingness to learn. I give him credit for that. That's hard to come by these days. He's gotta start somewhere.

Ruining a pair of #8 heads and fragging a plentiful 350 block would still be cheaper than going to college this day in age.

captjim

Not sure I understand the logic behind that statement? What exactly is a "bigger" quench area? Most guys really don't understand quench, they just repeat things they heard. The quench area on an Olds head is very small.

Yes, I ran a 100 shot on my cast-pistonned 355. But I did it right. I had a dedicated cell just for the nitrous with 110 in it, WOT switch, MSD Digital-6 with Boost retard and RPM limiter, low pressure cut-off switch, etc. I had over $500 just in the electronics, plus $500 or so for the kit. Nitrous is fun, but you can't cut corners. Also, my Cr was just below 9 to 1. If you are close to 10 to 1, you are going to need racing fuel or it will detonate and beat the bearings out of it. You will also need to pull some timing out. I ran 12.7 with a 1.77 60' in a 3800 lb car, shifting at 4600 rpm. Yes, 4600.

coppercutlass

I do plan on running a dedicated cell for 110 and a wot. Switch. The timing I will dial back at the track when I run it. As for the quench my understanding is the quench are or maybe I'm thinking of the squish are is the total distance betweent the block and cylinder heads. This is an area that I could use a little more understanding on.

380 Racer

OK Copper one more fricking time........I built my motors from the first and a 14.10 ET. The last I built ran an 11.56 plus I did most of the rest of the work on the car myself also. So yes I learned a bunch, it went very respectable every improvement and like you I made mortgage payments and supported my family and actually RACED. I stopped building my engines when my Diabetes started taking my vision away.

So I try to warn you about being too cheap is because I was there once. I only blew up one Olds motor in 32 years of thrashing because of a cheap valve. Oh ya never used giggle gas either.

Jeremy if you want to have at any of my posts go ahead.

coppercutlass

Nick my point being is that I'm bound to make mistakes specially when I'm still in the learning curve. Whith every build I make progress on my skill . With this one I'm getting into things that are a bit out of my skill range. I'm using the giggle gas because I want something milder on the street to be honest something like the first engine I had in my car then crank the bottle open for the track. I technically didn't blow up my last 350 but I was hearing noises that I didn't like. It could have possibly been that stupid trans cable but that's my fault. That little 350 was a big learning curve for me on learning what worked and what didn't and I made a lot of mistakes along the way and learned from them it really surprised me it lasted that long it was only meant to be in for 1 season and lasted 2 I also built that engine before I was on any forum I didn't ask anyone for help all I had was my mondello book and the chiltons manual . Also where am I being cheap Im buying parts that are in good shape. It's no diffrent then freshening up a race engine. Look on The classifieds sbo stuff goes cheap because everyone goes bbo. I got that shortblock because the guy couldn't get rid of it ! he knew I would put it to good use and hooked me up. I got the heads before they went to the scrapper and got the block for free. This is also why I love the sbo everyone goes bbo to fast . I love small blocks and parts are found cheap in good shape. So in short I scored great parts and have more than enough to pay for machining to do things properly hows that being cheap.

coppercutlass

Btw thanks J . The whole reason have my cutlass is because I skipped college and ended up at the right body shop with a hardcore olds nut and racer who saw enough skill in me to say I got a car if you are looking for a project. To think I almost bought a 79 Malibu to stick a buick 350 n it.

J-(Chicago)

No need, and no big deal. Carry on, men. I'm just trying to turn the burners down before any pots start to boil over. It would be much easier for people to be able to just download Olds knowledge straight from each of our brains like computer file disks, but things aren't that simple.

I just try to be calm and patient both when teaching people, and when learning from people. Less exciting, but more effective.

I understand that It's nerve racking and aggravating to sit back and watch people make mistakes, and wanting to kick them square in the ***, but kicking them in the *** doesn't teach much except my shoe size haha.

olds 307 and 403

I got an email back from my local machine shop. He quoted $200 for an overbore, $147 to plain the block and $150 to align hone. I think those are fair prices. What do you guys pay down there? I need to call him for balancing and head work, understandable. I may call him tonight. Balancing shouldn't be terrible, going from stock 330 pistons and rods to 550 gram Venoila's and Scat 2" sbc rods. Not sure how the stroking effects balance. I will eventually start my own thread. Tough to judge other people over the internet. We should be happy any younger guys give a crap about Olds. I got into Olds because we had very reliable Rocket powered family cars. How many kids now days will go to Olds for similar reason ? Answer is 0, very few on the road today. There were tons when I was kid and I am one of the younger guys at 38.

coppercutlass

I also have to say this. From the get go I have gotten crap about being cheap ok se that won't change but the arrogance to say essentially if you don't buy new parts we won't help you is mind blowing. If my mentor in the body shop would have said you have to buy the best body hammers in the industry or I wontt each you anything. I would have not learned anything. I started out with very little tools. Now I have a tool for everyjob and buy toold if I need them but first I gotta find out why I need them. I know the diffrence why I ned a 60 dollar body hammer vs a 5 dollar autozone one or a log pick vs short pick etc etc. J has given me advice and many gave me advice when I rebuilt my trans and I did it. Although I haven't installed it I got a lot of help listened and people understood I had a budget but I didn't get this whole bs. About it. If you want to help me give me helpful advice do it and get over the fact I can't afford all new parts. I have gone through the learning process in my trade and you have to learn from your mistakes. I have been doing body work since I was 16 I'm 24 now and I'm stil learning new things or how to approach metal work. So just drop the whole cheap crap. If you have something god to contribute do it if not just leave me be. Jim and I have had our diffrences but he did chime in and I appreciate it . Hedidnt bash me so I have no reason to be a d bag. Now let's forget all this and move on I'm tired of this on every single engine thread I do. If you have a suggestion let me know but you have to realize I have to take it fwiw and not get all butt hurt if I don't do what you say.

67 Cutlass Freak

These types of coments really aren't necessary. I think it's great that you're trying to put together a low budget engine geared towards performance. While doing most of the work yourself. I also think it's really cool that we have this community of friends and Olds enthusiasts that have helped you through horse trading or give aways. I'm sure everyone involved will be happy to see it run and glad they could contribute. Most of us are like pack rats that are hoarding all kinds of Olds parts we'll never use. We talked about my high performance 350 that I have close to $4000 into-
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...ort-block.html
I have not had one serious offer on that engine.
Tonight I did a little work on one of Jeromy's #5 heads. I thought I would share this with you just to give you an idea of what's involved when we go to do your heads. I hope you don't mind I didn't start my own thread, I really don't mean to hijack yours Copper.
Here's some of the basic tools I'll be using along the way. J-Chicago picked these #5 heads for a very good price, as good, usable bare cores, that were cleaned and checked for cracks. We do have to replace one broken valve guide. The rest on this head are in good shape. I can't replace a guide like this here, so when I'm done they will go to the machine shop for that, and resurfacing. This is also a budget rebuild valve job, so I'm not going to get too carried away with porting - unless the plan changes. Here's what the chamber looks like to start with-
117-1737_IMG.jpg
Here's what the oversized valves will look like installed. The intake is 1.995" and the exhaust is 1.625"
117-1738_IMG.jpg
Here's the old original size valves I installed just to protect the seats while I cleaned up the combustion chamber.
117-1739_IMG.jpg
This was the first step with a tapered carbide-
117-1740_IMG.jpg
This was after the rounded carbide. I took the valves out 'cause they were in my way and I'm going to open up and regrind the seats anyway-
117-1741_IMG.jpg
The tapered stone helps to smooth things out and get rid of grinding marks from the carbide bits. The idea here is not to remove a lot of material but just smooth things out to aid with a more complete burn and reduce carbon build up-
117-1742_IMG.jpg
This is after going over it with a 2" 40 grit roloc pad-
117-1743_IMG.jpg
This is after the 80 grit 2" roloc. I have probably spent 20 minutes on this so far-
117-1744_IMG.jpg
Next I put down some machinist blue dye to mark where the edge of the valves will be-
117-1744_IMG.jpg
117-1746_IMG.jpg
117-1747_IMG.jpg
117-1748_IMG.jpg
Here you can see I've done some pocket porting on the intake. I opened up the sides all the way around and tried to visualize a straight line from where the lowest part of where the valve will contact the seat. I feel that pocket porting is probably where the biggest gains can be had, for the least amount of porting time. I've also tear dropped the guide some-
117-1749_IMG.jpg

Here I'm getting ready to put a 45 degree grind onto the intake seat-
117-1751_IMG.jpg
Here I'm dressing the stone for the exhaust seat-

117-1753_IMG.jpg
This is as far as I'm going tonight. Jeromy and I have to decide if we want to use new valves in these heads or some fine quality road tested ones that I would donate. The posiswirl stainless valves shown in some of the photos cost me $300 with no vasoline. They are nice but kinda throws the budget build idea out the window. I'm going to try to find some less fancy/ less expensive valves for the "J" Man. I do have a couple sources. I'd love to hear about anyone elses. Next we need to cut the valves, lap then back cut. We may even open up the chamber slightly by the intake valve to unshroud it when opening.
117-1755_IMG.jpg
117-1756_IMG.jpg
117-1757_IMG.jpg

coppercutlass

Very nice dave. I also really appreciate your willingness to help me out. hopefully in 2 weeks i'll bring my heads up to you. I don't mind you posting up your work. Hopefully you can get some work from this. I truly just love to work on stuff. I don't need this engine asap I don't plan on running it next season . Im building it because I enjoy this stuff and it keeps me from bouncing off the walls and I like a challenge but I need to work with my hands to make it happen. im taking advantage of the fact that time is on my side on this one so a completely thought out mild nitrous engine and im looking to get into all the little details. I just odered a nitrous work book from hp books. This winter im going to look for a fuel cell , and other cheaply found used things. The nitrous kit and all that I plan on buying new. Im not looking to break records here. I just want a mid 13 sec engine n/a and 12's on the bottle.

67 Cutlass Freak

Copper have you started to do any port work yet on your heads? I spent some time today porting and was able to get one of Jeromy's heads done-
117-1759_IMG.jpg

coppercutlass

I think all we have to do to the #6's is tear drop the guides. Maybe a bit more bowl work but other than that they have been done.

billmerbach

Not to start an argument back up but sometimes the cheapest way is the best way I was raised to get the most for the least so after a gasket kit and look over I'm putting my 350 back together and hoping for the best

oldstata

Your above wright up was great one of the best I have seen sorry to jump on coppers thread

67 Cutlass Freak

That's great we can concentrate on the small details. I sent you a PM about the guides. Maybe we can use inserts I have here. We will document the fix and post it here. Are you going to be using adjustable rockers? If not we will have to adjust the valve stem height. I have a gauge to help with that. Do you have any photos of the port work done already?
Thanks for the compliment. I did it to show everyone how easy it was to do this type of performance porting. I really did'nt go hog wild, and it really only took me a couple hours including documentation. I wish the photos were better. About jumping in on a thread, more people need to do just that, as long as it's posative criticism.
copper has chosen to keep it cheap but do some minor upgrades like larger valves, porting, and other well chosen components for his goals. To slap it back together would have been easy, but how could you hope for any performance gains?

billmerbach

OK copper has I'm just adding to his point but on my build I'm just looking to get things running like copper told me but I don't want to steal his post so we can discuss on mine if u want

coppercutlass

not slapped together bill. I said if the engine you picked up was in running order I would just clean and inspect it and if it's in good enough shape meaning everything checked out run it since your budget is very limited . I haven't really slapped together an engine usually there is some form of plan . To put it in prespective even a simple re ring will turn into a 700 dollar deal. By the time you factor in timing chan, cam , oil pump, etc. It's like buying an engine from a junkyard you intend on running. You clean it and inspect it put it back together and run it.

billmerbach

I should choose my words better I didn't mean like slap it together I have a plan but its just to keep it stock

coppercutlass

Dave I went downstairs and got off the couch ughhhhhhhhhhh lol. I checked the valve guide as far as side to side play there is none. but there is drag marks from my uhhh idiot moment for lack of terms. hereare some pics. I wont be able to clean them up like I said because the de rusting and degreasing tank at my dads work contains a chemical that eats up soft metals.

coppercutlass

Just to show you how my heads would have came out here is a block we cleaned a few years back

J-(Chicago)

I was going to take these #5's home with me a couple weeks ago, trash can the one with the broken guide, and run a #4 and a #5 in stock form..... but Dave wouldn't let me take them because he said they weren't good enough yet.

Seriously?!
What a nice guy.
I had no idea you were were going to make that old junk, that nice. I figured you'd just chuck the valves up on the grinder and true up the seats for me.

Not only are you going the extra mile, you're going an extra 10 miles. I'm so glad to be your first customer right now.
Thanks a million, Dave.

J-(Chicago)

Those things will flow enough to support 450 horse now I'd bet. Not that I need it, but options are great.

67 Cutlass Freak

That's a good start copper. What is considered soft metal on the heads? Sounds like your guides will be fine. I have a reamer to fix them. Be careful in those exhaust valves not to port through into the bolt holes. Don't touch the floor on the intake or exhaust ports.
I just wanted to make them nice for you. I just hope I didn't do too much to them that now you're not gonna want to sell them.

coppercutlass

The bronze guides will get eaten up in a hurry in that tank to degrease and derust . Only meant for steel and iron. They dip cars into these tanks and some have been repaired and stuff is brazed on and it eats it up pretty bad. Same for the lead on the seams up on a pillars. Dad told me if there is bronze , brass, aluminum, lead will get chewed up fast not worth the risk.

As for the heads I didn't touch em at all with a grinder previous owners did all that .

coppercutlass

What about media blasting them. I could soda blast them I got a few options in that dept since they do media blasting at dads work as well. I could just clean them with the valves on so the seats won't get etched.

67 Cutlass Freak

I didn't realize you had bronze guides. I didn't look close enough in your photos. Soda blasting would be a good idea.

coppercutlass

I might just buy a gallon of parts cleaner and do em here by hand with a wire brush and scotch brite pads.

J-(Chicago)

As far as I'm concerned, you can do whatever the heck you want with them. If you want to do a full race port, full rebuild, and sell them on ebay for 700 bucks, I could care less. I'm only 100 bucks into them picking them up as cores. If you want to keep them, you can keep them. You're the one working your tail off, I'm just the junkyard picker at this point haha.

I had a pair of #4 heads here I was going to use, but one of them ended up magging cracked. That pair of #5's dropped off at your shop has one good head, and 1 with a busted guide, so I only needed 1 head, but picked them both up.....just for the hell of it.

You could sell those #5's if you completely re-do them, and fund the next adventure. Just find me one singular 2,3,4,5,6,7, or 7a for this short block I have here, and I'll be a happy guy.

NUMBERS MATCHING is most important to me with MEASUREMENTS.......
like piston grams,
or spring pressures,
or bearing clearances
or combustion chamber CCs.
I could care less what casting it is so long as I make it correct on the inside.

67 Cutlass Freak

I stopped by my local machine shop today on my way home from work and talked with Dave from Dixon Automotive in Gurnee. Their phone # is 847-244-2235. Real good guys with a bit of knowledge on Oldsmobile's. He helped me put together this basic price sheet which is kind of rough. They usually price out complete jobs and it's specific to each build. So I asked him for very basic charges pertaining to an Olds V-8. They do not have a set hourly rate and I'm sure there's many add-ons possible.


1) Install new valve guides $20 for the 1st one $7 for each additional plus parts
2) Install new seats $40 for the 1st one $8 for each additional plus parts
3) Clean/ check for cracks one pair of heads $50
4) Resurface head $80/ pair add $30 for extra material to be removed
5) Complete 3 angle performance valve job $375/ pair plus parts
6) Clean block, deck, install cam bearings/ freeze plugs, bore, hone $269 plus parts
7) Polish crank $55
8) Resize rods, R&R pistons, new ARP bolts $300 plus parts
9) Assemble complete stock type built engine carb to pan $850, for a performance build that requires multiple fittings the charge would be more.

I asked about grinding cranks/ offset/ stroker they out source that as well as balancing and line boring or line honing. These guys are a very small family owned operation. They stay busy and have delivered for me in the past. Does anyone else want to post up what they pay for machine shop services?

coppercutlass

I work 5 minutes from gurnee. I work for lexus of highland park il. But our shop is in lake bluff on rt 41. I might just have to take my block there.

Need number 6 for sure. I like those prices.

I paid 350 with opel engineering in streamwood il. to bore and hone, install cam bearings , and final clean. I paid 380 to balance and free up some tight pistons pins , and cut the rod journals and mains through built rite engine rebuilders in Addison il. I was not happy with built rite they balanced the rotating assembly but the cleanliness and overall neatness did not impress me. The clearances where correct. This was on the swapmeet build 355 that currently is in the 72.

I'm also going to wait if I'm patient lol for the race and perfromance expo. Vendors usually have good deals and the speed shop that sponsors it does 10 percent off purchases over 100 dollars. So currently I'm at 520 through summit racing so take 10 percent off that lol. That's if I can wait lol.

captjim

Here is my "$5,000" 355, assembled,
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...arts-list.html

I'm not sure where the "budget build" begins or ends, but IMO if you do everything correctly using new parts, that is what you are looking at.