coppercutlass

Jim although your build prices are dead on and honest. I think anyone who is trying to stay in a budget will try to find some good used heads that will clean up or a used intake etc. Etc. Not that your isn't budget but if all you have is a core and no time to look around horse trade and wait for the right parts to show up in the classifieds then yes that's the way to go. Not that there is anything wrong with that . Fwiw my swap meet build was roughly 3500 intake to oil pan. This build will be considerably less and to be honest.

J-(Chicago)

Exactly.... I call them "shortcut" builds.

Every shortcut you take, could, or will eventually be deadly for your engine...., and the more of them you take, the higher risk odds you're gambling with.

BUT.....that being said..... Where does a "correct" build begin or end?

I suppose we could try nailing Captjim's build to the cross because he re-used 50 year old stock rods and crankshaft.
There is a risk of that old junk breaking....

BUT not nearly as big of a risk as someone using scaly rust covered exhaust valves from the junkyard.



I think Captjim has the happy medium of a proper build there. He has eliminated as many possible failure points as possible while staying in a real world budget.

Could someone get a core for 100 bucks, toss a bore gauge and a dingle ball hone in it, lap the valves with a suction cup and go? MAYBE. Odds are against you the whole way though, both in wear and tear, and failure points.

And even if you succeed, the success is going to be shorter lived than a better build.

coppercutlass

It's all about finding that zone of comfort on what parts you use. I agree sucess might be shorter lived. What I'm after is finding out my own combinations and putting up good numbers. If it blows it blows but even shiney new engines have failed druing break in.

oldstata

I think that the (budget build) is using good used parts. I would never cut a corner on machine work . I believe that copper is a prime example that you can find good used parts for a good price/trade and spend the cash where it counts.

coppercutlass

I think this build will be proper. My first budget frankensitne 350 was slapped together and it ran 13.3's. With a smal carb and too small of a converter not too shabby. It was short lived but it ran great. Now my swap meet build I spent more and so far it runs bettter feels stronger and over is better that that one I think it should dip into the 12's . This new build I want to do everything as proper as possible I have better parts to start with than the swap meet build and less money invested. I'm not trying to say the proper way is wrong. I'm simply trying to have a good time go fast and learn everything I can first hand. I'm not saying my stuff will last 4 years etc etc but usually my stuff runs long enough for me to get my enjoyment before I move onto the next engine.

J-(Chicago)

Most machinery is purpose built. Same goes for engine builds.

Can you flip a 30 dollar circular saw upside down and bolt it to a piece of plate steel if you can't afford a nice table saw?

The answer is yes. It's more of a hack way to go about doing it, but It's still going to work.

Not as well as a the purpose built table saw though.

coppercutlass

I didn't want to buy a seam buster to bust seams I panels like door skins and after drilling spotwelds on 1\4 panels so I put a small s bend in some flat stock steel and ground the edges to a knife edge. Lol still works . I also didn't want to spend 180 dollars on a leverage bar with chain hook ups so I made my own fromsome heavy duty tubing and flat plates with notches to hold chains in place. Mine is more heavy duty that the one you buy though lol.

coppercutlass

To add some insight to how I think. My buddy is building a 347 stroker. He went alllll out and bought nice parts. He calls me one day and say's I think I'm efffd. He is talking about the rods not fiting right etc etc. I went over and took a look at his rods. Well the rods have an chamfer and the bearings are offset in the bore if you install them the wrong way you have no clearance I took a quick look and realized the way the bearings where and how he assemble it was wrong based on how the chamfer was on the big end of the rods . I would hate to be the guy who does that and runs it then fails and gets scared to ever build his own engine. I went through all those steps and I'm sure I still got some more to over come my point being

captjim

I just think tossing all that stuff into the mix makes it hard to give a "real" budget. You could factor in realistic used prices, like $100 for an intake, $50 for a carb, etc. If I find a rebuild 455 in a barn for $500, does that mean it is the going rate for a rebuilt 455? No. You have guys giving you stuff and doing work for free, you can't count on that, which is why, IMO, for comparison purposes, I use new prices.

captjim

One more time, and I'm not going to beat this to death. "Rebuilt" means bringing it back to factory condition. Blocks, head castings, crankshafts, rods are all machinable parts. Some will argue that complete heads are a more cost-effective way to go. Hopefully soon the sanme for rods. Pistons, bearings, rings, cams, timing gears, oil pump, etc are wear parts, they will need to be replaced. A re-ring is not rebuilt, unless you are very fortunate to find a block with very little wear. Lapping the valves is not a rebuild.

J-(Chicago)

I agree.
Let's call a spade a spade.

Rebuilt is rebuilt, and recycled is recycled.

coppercutlass

Jim I agree with that my whole build can't be apples to apples on price. What it can be is somewhat of an example for guys on a budget. Heads that need just a clean up will pop up from time to time etc. Etc. I don't have 5k to drop on an engine so I gotta look high an low for what I need so my builds take sometime but it's usually one thing or another time or money.

holiday88

I've been following this thread from the start and enjoy reading coppercutlass's posts.
Is there a way to stop capt troll from posting in this thread? He clearly has a different opinion and offers nothing positive to this thread.
As long as coppercutlass takes the time to measure his parts and ensure that the clearances with new bearing and rings are to spec makes this no less a rebuild. imo.
This constant argument over what is or isn't a rebuild is tiresome.

olds 307 and 403

It has been said, right place, right time. I have had good luck finding nice mid to late 70's SB Olds out of Grampa mobile's. Others might not be so lucky. My build will also count on used but very expensive when new parts. You need to have know how on what is reusable. Keeping RPM reasonable also goes a long way. Look at Jim's cast piston nitrous build, 4600 rpm was all that was needed. I am planning on 5000 rpm shift points.

coppercutlass

Holiday88 thanks for the support but I have to say this about jim. We haven't always seen eye to eye on things but I think this is the most we have ever posted with out going at it. I respect his input although I have diffrent views or ways of doing things. As I have gotten into more involved build I agree that building engines ain't cheap and trying to build em cheap always isn't always cheap. Trying to maintian a budget is hard. So far I see no reason to grill him about his input people have to see both ends of the spectrum . His build is a true re build with new bought parts at shop prices. Me on the other hand I do get help and freebies and good deals but I go out and look for them and I'm proactive about it. Now what nick said was uncalled for and I won't tolerate it.

captjim

Please show an instance of this? 2 posts were clarifications on quench and balancing, one a tip to remove valves, the post with the prices was in response to a request from Cutlass Freak about prices. Nobody is arguing anything.

captjim

There is a LOT more to a rebuild than that. Cylinder taper and bore, piston to wall clearance, crankshaft end play, valve stem clearance, valve stem height, and many other things. Again, this isn't my opinion, it is accepted industry standard.

captjim

I certainly agree that you can put an engine together for less than five grand if you are willing to horse-trade and scrounge parts. There is nothing wrong with that if you have the time. It is just that there are so many variables. I just don't think it is a good idea to constantly post "I have $1800 in my rebuilt engine", it leads new guys to think that is a reasonable cost for a performance rebuild that is going to last. Then, when they slap it together and it fails or under performs, you hear, "Oldsmobiles won't hold up" stuff.

holiday88

coppercutlass can check most if not all of what you mention and not cost him any amount of money provided he has the tools to do the job. What's your point? Are you the industry standard spokesperson?

holiday88

I happen to think it's wrong to tell "the new guys" that only spending $5000 on an engine will do. That's not what this thread is about. It's also not about "slapping it together" as you say. Most people don't spend $5000 on their first engines, at least not in my world.

captjim

Is it most or is it all? Again, are we doing it correctly or are we doing some of it correctly? My point is that even if he can check it (most guys don't have a dial bore guage lying around) in the vast majority of cases, it will be out, which means a re-bore and new pistons. That is not work he can do at home. Pistons are $400 +/- and bore/hone around $200. My point is that if you want an engine to run well, the cylinders need to be true and the ring gap and piston clearance good, otherwise ring seal will suffer and so will performance. Same goes for the align hone. If it is off the bearing clearances may be out of spec and so will the deck measurements. He can check these, but can't correct them for free.

captjim

Please take the time to read my posts. I stated that $5000 will get you an assembled engine using quality, new parts and good machine work. I never said you could not do it for less, you just can't do it using new parts.

380 Racer

.........Copper you are on my ignore list.........so I'll just stay out of this.

jag1886

This is a can of worms subject. I guess this is what do you call a budget. I spent a little over $4000 on my engine and I call it a budget build, I got all the machine work I wanted but not as nice a parts as would have liked to have had.
These days the machine work is what kills a budget build you can't get around it unless you don't do it or you have a $200,000 worth of equipment in your garage. You can save a few bucks on parts by scrounging but you can't escape the machine work.
I say more power to you but if you go to cheap you won't get the desired results.
This post seems to be about two different groups of people in different tax brackets arguing about what a budget is. I put together some real crap in my younger years and got away with it and was amazed by how well it ran.

coppercutlass

Somehow this always happens. Im just doing what I can . So far I haven't built an engine that didn't make me happy in the performance dept. I know that due to the nature of the build it can be short lived. Guy's lighten up a bit. Im not here to reinvent the wheel or tell you haha you spent more or to say you are wrong. Im sure if you asked a guy how the takes a **** you would get different responses. We all have different ways of doing stuff. This is the path I choose I think this will be one of the better builds to be honest for me. I have acquired more tools to measure stuff and I learn new things all the time. I have learned a lot from this web site and it's members even the ones who I have disagreed with I still take it in ., I may be stubborn but eventually it makes sense . My mentality has changed a lot because of what I know now. This build isn't just about being budget but a chance for people to chime in with their opinions and help. Guys let this horse die . I wouldn't build this engine if I didn't have the right parts. Im going to measure everything out document it all and post up the numbers. I want to seriously be able to say I got all the proof I did this as right as possible. I personally want the challenge. When I posted about wanting help re building the differential on my fiancés k5 I got it and it turned out good. When I wanted to rebuild a th350 I got help and didn't get bashed and I felt confident on what I was doing I think it will run good once it's in. If you guys give advice I will listen but half the time im getting crap about being cheap and sorry I don't come here to get bashed . I may not be able to do things your way but if you help chances are I will listen.

coppercutlass

Ok so i tore down the cylinder heads. Thanks to J-chicago i didnt screw anymore guides up which i think the others might be fine just need a light honing. Also thanks to J i got some bbo intake valves. I took two sets of #8 ex. valves off so we have some good choices if some may work and some may not. I also found the reason why my valves where getting stuck some valves had a half moon shaped ridge im guessing it's like the reverse ridge on a cyl. Not deep just like a burr edge but im not using those valves however i did have some like that on one of the #8's i took apart. I will be de greasing them then soda blasing them along with the valves unless someone suggest's otherwise.

Lars

keep it up copper your dooing fine! imo thats the best way to learn. TO EVERYBODY ELSE give him opions/advice and let HIM make his own decision. "do what you can with what you got"

iv'e used that spring tool before and it was a pita

coppercutlass

Lars I found out the trick to using that valve spring compressor . With aftermarket bigger springs it's easy but with stock valve springs you have to mount it then screw it down along the coil not the compressor tool if that makes sense to grasp as most of the valve spring as possible. At first I hated it but after a while you figure it out.

67 Cutlass Freak

Copper are you still planin' on coming up Sunday & have you talked to Jeromy?

coppercutlass

Yes we are still on for sunday . I texted J he said he would keep me posted . Im thinking of going up early probably heading out of here around 8 or 9. whatever works for you. I'll call you sat. just to make sure I got everything .

coppercutlass

Guys so here is what im thinking for a cam. Im looking to keep the rpms low this will me a mild cruiser . I don't want to run a really loose converter I don't want a crazy idle . I know I can go bigger but im running an edelbrock performer intake and I don't plan on spinning it past 5k rpm. What do you guys think. Also weird question but has anyone made a tool like in the btr book to check the oil pump psi. Im interested in building one.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hr...ake/oldsmobile

captjim

That should be a good nitrous cam. Have you determined the final Cr yet? If it gets up near 10 to 1, it might be a tad small.

coppercutlass

I picked it because of the 112 lsa from the info I gathered that's good for what I'm looking to do. I'm keepeing it at 9.5 to1 but I have to cc the heads and all that good stuff yet. But if al things play out I should be able to run that cam.

Rocket Richard

That reminds me J, can I have my circ saw back now?

coppercutlass

Well guys I figured I would update the build. Sunday I went by dave's Aka mr. 67 cutlassfreak . J-Chicago came with me . We hung out got some work done I learned a lot and have a totally new direction im going with my build ., but im gonna keep that somewhat secretive until I have everything at hand for final assembly. I gotta really thank Dave and Jeremy I learned a lot in a few hours about valves and valve heights, and lot of other great info regarding the cyilinder heads . I even got to do a little valve grinding and Dave even let me sit in his 67 and fire it up ! We only got a little work in as dave was teaching me everything he could. I look forward to going up there next time and putting that knowledge to work.

67 Cutlass Freak

Ulysis it was good to meet you and hang out. Sorry we didn't get more work done. I don't buy the "J" mans alarm clock BS story. He was probably gettin' busy with the old lady. I didn't get any more work done tonight I was too tired after work. I will hit it hard tomorrow and post some shots. I think the SS valves I have will work well for you, but I'm gonna do some research before we commit. When I'm done porting we will need to decide. I picked up a performance Felpro intake gasket set today for match porting purposes. I'm not really too happy with the sizing. Whoever started the porting on your heads messed up the floor a little at the entry point but I will fix it. Over all your ports are very close to these gaskets. I want to pick up some fiber type like Mondo sells so we can raise the roof a little more. Here's some snap shots-
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Jeremy playin with his tool-
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coppercutlass

Man my coat makes me look like fat albert lol. It added like 75 lbs

Lars

shame shame shame. no PPE... that looks like a GREAT shop, i'm envious

iv'e done some recent port matching. its fun stuff, the a4 intake was considerably smaller than the gasket. my goal is to take the venturi out of the port.

J-(Chicago)

Hey dave here's a pic of those G heads in my basement.

.228" bigger than the stock throat was.

Lars

why don't you guys teardrop the back side of the guide?