babs68

The cam I'm not sure of, but it will have dual exhaust with some hooker headers. It's just an idea for now. I'll try and get the intake off this weekend and provide some pictures for you guys.

Macadoo

Edelbrock intake, headers, and dual exhaust make a good combo. But you got it right; pull the intake, see what's happening, and go from there.

babs68

Well, after pulling the intake I've come to the conclusion that my brother was too nice of a guy trusting people doing his work and taking his money.

I will let the pictures do all the talking and feel free to laugh, cry, throw an expletive in there because I did. I will quote the lady of the house when we both saw this, "You've. Got. To. Be. F******. Kidding. Me.".

She wrenches on VWs as I do and this one is for the books.

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babs68

Here are the pictures for the lifters that I could take out. I figure the dirty black crud/debris was sitting in the lifers. There was a fair amount sitting in the bowl of the lifter.

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Macadoo

Um...wow. Now, my experience is too limited to speak on this.....but I will anyway, lol. As far as I know, there's nothing used to install an intake that is water-based and would cause rust. Even if something was spilled on the engine, the interior should be sealed off and not rust.
Now, the question is; what does the crank case look like? If it's just a bad intake install, I think you're in good shape. Just clean all that up, replace the lifters, clean the pushrods, reinstall the intake and you're good to go.
I do wish you could pull the oil pan and have a good look up inside.

MDchanic

Hmmmm...

I don't like the rust on the intake gasket. It implies that the engine got wet while being assembled.
There is one spot in this picture:

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where it looks like water got into an intake runner, then got out past the sealing surface, but it's just weird.

The black crud on the lifter is in the place where the lifter picks up its oil, which suggests that it is in the oil galleries.

I hate to say it, but it looks like a complete disassembly to me.

- Eric

babs68

Oh great, this is what I suspected. Now I suppose to need to save up my nickels and dimes to get this fixed.

tru-blue 442

Looks like it may have just been slapped together. There's not even any silicone
on the end seals of where the intake sits on the block. Can you pull the turkey tray out and post a pic of the lifter valley?

babs68

Here are pictures of the lifter valley:

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oldcutlass

It looks like the intake was not torqued properly and water got on top of the engine and leached into the gasket area.

At a minimum I would block the oil returns, prime the engine with the old lifters until the oil runs clear and dirt free. Don't let the oil go back into the engine. Pull the old lifters out and replace with a new set with cam lube on the bottoms. Drain the oil and rinse the pan through the drain hole with some varsol to get what ever you can out that might have settled on the bottom. Put on a new filter and refill the oil and prime again. Hopefully it will run clear. Then reinstall the intake with a new gasket. Do a proper break in and then immediately change the oil again.

babs68

Where would I locate the oil returns? Are they in he lifter valley or up top?

Also, what cleaning solution should I use to clean up the rust spots?

Grumbler

The oil returns are in the heads, the front lower and rear lower corners under the valve covers have drain holes that return the oil to the pan. I wouldn't concern myself about cleaning that external rust just yet, my concern would be did that water get into a cylinder through an open intake valve while it sat and rust up the cylinder wall or piston rings, or did it rust up a valve itself.
You've gone this far. I'd pull the heads.

babs68

Eric is right about the intake not being torqued to spec. I barely twisted the bolts and it came out and I knew right away something was wrong when the bolts did not look clean at all.

I will try Eric's suggestion first and then maybe move over to your suggestion and check out the heads.

Macadoo

babs, do you have the headers or exhaust manifolds installed yet? If not, those heads would be easy to pull. Just follow the torque sequence in reverse when loosening the bolts. Just as easy as the intake and should complete the picture. You'd be able to see the cylinder walls, piston tops, and valves. New gaskets aren't very expensive unless you go with shims.

Macadoo

Oh, and pitch those end seals before reinstalling the intake. Use a good bead of silicone instead. It does look like the intake was installed dry. Very weird.

babs68

Headers are not installed so I plan on removing the heads before installing new lifters.

I like how this went from a loose rocker to this full blown situation hahaha

Macadoo

Welcome to the gearhead world. Take a look at my "Pulling the motor" thread. I thought I was going to buy my '71 and give it a good tune-up. That was one helluva tune up! Lol.

Do you know what head gaskets are on there now? Have the heads been milled? The block decked? Considering the history of your car, I doubt you know any of these things. It wouldn't hurt to cc the chambers once you have the heads off. It's in my thread somewhere. Basically you turn the head over, get it level, grab a small piece of plexiglass and drill a small hole in the center, cover the chamber with the plexi using petroleum jelly to seal it, and fill it with windex through the hole using a syringe with cc markings. Add this to the volume of the cylinder with the piston at TDC and you can calculate your compression ratio. Thicker gaskets will lower the CR while thinner (shim) gaskets may raise it.
This is by no means required. It's just nice to know.

babs68

Hey, better in my garage than another garage that may charge me an extra $100 an hour just because I touched it. Or even better a garage that will try to sell it and think they can get away with it hahaha. Not that I know or anything.

I'm hoping and crossing my fingers that that moister did not trickle all the way day and just sat there. I'll take off the heads and see how much damage there is and if I need to start looking for a proper engine guy to fix what is broken.

When cleaning the lifters that may have the debris can I just use a towel to clear up the bore where the pushrod meets and then relube the top with oil and the bottom with cam lube?

Macadoo

Well it depends on what was done during the build. But I would at least give them a good spray with brake cleaner and maybe scrub them down with a toothbrush. The bores can get a pretty good glaze on them from years of service but that should have been cleaned during the build.
And I would definitely buy new lifters. Why take the chance. Some guys like to soak the lifters in clean engine oil [overnight] before installing them and others will actually actuate the plunger while they're in the oil to help fill them. I didn't bother. I just oiled them, covered the bottom with asembly lube, and installed.

MDchanic

The lifters can be disassembled and cleaned (and I, personally, would be interested in disassembling just one, to see what was inside), but considering that this is a certain amount of work, and new ones are cheap, you may be better off just buying a new set.

Before that, though, I think you need to have a look at the bores, the main bearings, the oil pump gears, and the oil galleries, which is to say that the engine has to come out.

Have a look at Mac's thread to see how easy it really is.

At this point, even if you luck out and there is nothing terrible inside, if you don't take it apart, you will always be wondering if it's about to blow up.

It's no different than removing a VW engine, except that you lift it up, instead of jacking it down.
Just rent an engine hoist, roll the car out of the "garage," pull the engine out, roll the car back in, and come up with a place to work on the engine (ramps, buddies, and brute force can get it into the basement or living room with the heads and intake manifold off of it)...
... Then... Have a good time!

- Eric

babs68

I just don't have the space where I live now to work on the engine at that scale. I wish I had a 2 car garage, that would make things so much easier.

The lady of the house and I have decided that eventually this engine will see a proper builder due to having that feeling in the back of my mind that something bad may potentially happen, but for now I want to learn as much as I can by taking the steps and suggestions everyone has provided. I've learned a lot already by just finding a loose rocker arm.

MDchanic

In three weeks we will be giving you suggestions on removing oil stains from your carpet.

- Eric

babs68

One oil stain on the refinished floors and me and the car are kicked to the curb.

tru-blue 442

No need for that. Just use the rest of the oil to 'refinish' the floors,
she'll go for that. Just a little darker stain of course, that's all babe.

babs68

It's a new Minwax floor stain color "Oil Slick Onyx".

tru-blue 442

Perfect. No dog house sitting for you, it's covered.

Macadoo

Okay, if you're going to do this, you need to get your vocabulary straight. She's not "the lady of the house", she's "She Who Must Be Obeyed". This little change alone got me headers and a chrome dress up kit for Christmas.

Seriously though; you could pull that motor, look it over in the driveway (or the sidewalk), and have it back in place in a weekend (A dry weekend). But the thing is, if it's in bad shape, you'd want to leave it on the stand and you'll need a place to put it. What about one of those small plastic buildings for a lawn mower? Might be cheaper than an engine builder.

babs68

Mac, that is assuming we even have a proper backyard. Think new York City where you have just street parking and if you want a backyard then move upstate haha. Space is very very very limited.

She is offering to buy me the compressor and evaporator whenever this whole engine problem is fixed.

I'm about to pull off the head on the side that is really rusty and where most of the moisture went to. Photos will come later tonight. Wish me luck.

Macadoo

Fingers crossed X

babs68

Definitely going to need the beaker bar on this one. Just read the torque specs.

babs68

Some of the moisture and rust got into the intake valves and I also found some of that crud and debris in the holes where the pushrods go into. The heads will come off this weekend I got too distracted today with fixing our washing machine, "She Who Must Be Obeyed" was pretty adamant about getting that done first. BOOOOOOOO

You can see that crud in this pic:
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I found it also interesting that they used a different retainer on the 8. For what? I'm not sure.
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Macadoo

Ah, it was lawn tractor for me today. Tree stump jumped right out in front of me, I swear! Bent the steering linkage up but good.

They must have broken a bridge and didn't have an original replacement. That looks like a Sealed Power bridge. It should be fine.

VI Cutty

I think MD's advice is the way to go - if I was finding this much wrong on the top of the engine I would really be questioning what they screwed up in the rest of the engine. Seen it too many times in VW engines

Can you find a rental garage to use by the month? Sometimes there's space available for short term use of that nature...get in, git'er dun, get out.

Are you active in any car clubs? Maybe some sympathetic member can help with space for an engine build?

babs68

The heads are coming off this weekend, but right now we are already leaning towards getting the engine looked at. We're going to call around and see how much things will cost to properly build this engine.

We are hoping that because the block was cleaned and what not that maybe the builder can replace some of the parts and not do a complete rebuild. We hope it won't run too high.

Macadoo

Considering your lack of space and [soon to be] lack of time; I think that's the way to go.

babs68

Mac,

Only less than a month and I go back to teaching day and night, so time is never on my side. If the machinist finds that it's just the heads that may have been damaged how much would that run for them to fix it up?

Macadoo

Oh, um...depends on what they have to do. I think mine cost me around $300 for new guides, all new exhaust valves, a few intake valves, new springs (I supplied), and milling.
BUT, your heads shouldn't need any of that (we're hoping). I would have them checked for straight, and looked over good and go from there.
babs, I think the real concern among our CO friends is that since that intake was slopped on without the proper sealer, etc, what else did the builder slop together, or what else did the shop do / not do to that poor, helpless engine.
For instance; was the cam installed properly? Are the main and rod bearings new and clean? Is there a new timing chain? What's the oil pump look like? What about the cylinder walls and piston rings? Etc, etc.
You still have a month? I'm down to two weeks left!

oldsguybry

babs68

Maybe a month, but I'm sure it is less due to all the mandatory meetings and what not. I'm kinda glad to be going back.

Well, considering today will be the last day of 80 degree after that we will have 100s again for about a week or so, I decided to take the heads off today.

This is the passenger side. It looks like the moisture has gone all the way down. Cue the Price Is Right losing horn:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytC...ature=youtu.be


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babs68

Here is the driver side:

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From my initially look at the cylinder walls they seem to be ok. I'm just worried of all the rust that has developed in the crevices and what not.