gmackner

i'm looking for a project to do and was wondering about doing an engine swap in a 66 toronado? Maybe a FWD engine/trans from a newer GM model. anyone ever heard of what fits? i was thinking of maybe a northstar engine. or is the TH-425 connection to the axles the problem? i haven't purchased a car yet and if i found a nice one i might just leave it stock but if i fins a straight car that needs work who knows.

Oldsguy

I don't think so, although I did see a Toro with twin engine/transaxle combo. One in front and one in the rear. Awsome. Just curious though, why not keep the original powerplant and transaxle, just rebuild them? There is GOOBS of torque in an Olds big block.

edit; Oh, and welcome to our site.

gmackner

first i thought about putting in a OD trans so i would get more than 9 MPG as i plan of driving it a lot, as i have all of my old cars. then after watching jen lenos conversion for the 10th time i paused it after the engine was out and looked at the ale stubs and figured it would be easier to just put a new fwd engine in. or maybe chanhe the entire front end frame with engine and wheels attached. i guess it all depends what i find as far as condition of the car i get is. if i find a nice orgional car i would leave the orgional engine in but if i find a fair condition car that needs everything i would have saved enough money to do the swap while rebuilding it.

joe_padavano

The early 80s Toro with the TH325-4R trans does have an overdrive. The problem is the TH325 is based on the TH200 and will grenade behind a big block. As for installing a Northstar, the fundamental problem is transverse vs. longitudinal mounting - and the 300 ft-lb vs. 500 ft-lb of torque in a big block.

Oldsguy

do you mean this one? It is about three entries down. A beautiful car!



http://72.22.90.30/phpBB2/viewtopic....highlight=leno

gmackner

If i swap sub frames from the northstar car it won't matter which way the engine sits, just weld in the new frame to the unibody. anyone know overall width of the 66 toro and the newer Aurora's. My plan would be to swap the subframe and dash, wiring, front seats and console from an Aurora, that way it would still have olds logos on everything. (are you reading this Jay, hint hint) i love the 66 toro body but the dash and seats seem to be from a delta 88. Gary

joe_padavano

Right. Nothing to it.

Well, except for different width, different suspension design (struts vs. control arms), different structural attach points,...

Just a few brackets...

Sorry, but you're still replacing a 400 HP motor with a 250 HP motor. By the way, the seats ARE the same frames as used in the other car lines.

joe_padavano

Hey again. I just wanted to say that my first two posts in this thread were a little snippy and I'm sorry. The problem is that this proposed project is probably ten times harder and ten times more expensive than you think. I've seem many projects of similar complexity that get abandoned after the builder realizes he's in waaaay over his head. The result is one and possibly two good cars cut up.

If your intent is to build an early Toro with an OD trans and a modern fuel injected engine, here's a suggested alternative.

As I noted above, the TH325-4R is the same configuration and roughly the same size as the TH425 in the Toro. Since the TH325-4R uses 200-4R internals, you can beef the 325 using available aftermarket parts. Once you build that trans, dig up a turbo Buick V6. The V6 bolts to the TH325 and was even used in this configuration in the 79-85 FWD Rivieras (including a turbo version). While the motor and trans mounts are different between the 79-85 cars and your 66, they are close enough that it's not rocket science to fab new brackets. The Toro axles will likely even be close to bolting to the TH325.

The beauty of this is that it doesn't require you to take a torch to the Toro and if you do it right, the original 425 and TH425 can be reinstalled if you (or a future buyer) so desires. Turbo Buicks can build serious horsepower and the resulting drivetrain should shave a couple of hundred pounds off the nose of the Toro. Plus, this is a real-life project that a reasonable builder could put together in his own garage. It doesn't require a chassis jig, surface plate, or Jay Leno's bank account.

Just a thought...

gmackner

thanks for all the great info. i have found a 95 riveria with the supercharged engine. what about this engine trans combo as swap material???

joe_padavano

If you're asking about using the supercharged 3800 in the longitudinal FWD config in the Toro, it won't work due to bellhousing bolt pattern differences.

If you think you can simply adapt the entire Riv engine cradle to the Toro, PLEASE, PLEASE think this through before you destroy a perfectly good 66 Toro.

First, the Riv (and mos modern FWD cars) use a structural inner fender assembly. Look closely at the Riv and you'll notice that the engine cradle bolts to reinforced points at both the front and back of the inner fenders. In addition, the tops of the struts bolt to the inner fender panels, NOT the subframe. These inner fender panels are typically high strength steel and the locations of the attach points are critical for strength, handling, and safety.

Now look at the 66 Toro. That car has a separate frame with NON-STRUCTURAL inner fenders. The core support and inner and outer fenders are supported and aligned by the frame, not the other way around. How exactly do you plan to attach the subframe and the upper ends of the struts?

As an example, take a look at a normal 69 Camaro body shell as sold by Dynacorn. It stops at the firewall.

http://www.dynacornclassicbodies.com/gm_models.html

There's a subframe that mounts the engine and suspension and serves as the mount for the core support, but this subframe extends quite a ways under the car to provide the necessary structural attachment.

Now look at the repro 69 Camaro shells that have been configured to accept the fourth gen F-body suspension (Note, these are NOT the regular repro body shells. This is a different product developed by Goodmark and Retro Rides.).

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...all/index.html

These body shells have a structural assembly that goes all the way to the front bumper and provides the correct attach points for the fourth gen engine cradle and suspension.

If you really plan to do this, I strongly suggest you start by getting an engineering degree, followed by some internship in a state of the art chassis shop.

If you really want a transverse modern engine in a Toro, get a late model Toro and sell the 66.

gmackner

thanks for the reply. now i see why no one has ever done much in the way of engine swaps in 66 Toro. i asking a lot of questions so i don't make any mistakes. i appreciate all the detail in your answer. i would not ever do any work of this type unless the car is so far gone that it would not be restored otherwise. as a matter of fact i am an retired mechanical engineer. right now it is just an idea, if i ever did do this car it would wind up looking like Lenos car when i'm done.

joe_padavano

The car was pretty much designed around the engine/trans package. You can install another GM longitudinal engine with the existing trans, but the kind of mods you're talking about require complete reengineering of the frame.

Gary41

I agree with Joe's logic in this matter.....unless an enormous amount of $$$ is not a concern. Not to mention a great deal of time and effort to severely compromise the structural integrety of the vehicle. One possible option to upgrading those big block Toro power plants is to install a tuned port, computer controlled fuel injection system. There is some good information available on various websites that deal with the GMC motorhome.....just a thought.

joe_padavano

Yes, but the one potential problem is hood clearance on the Toro. Custom EFI technology has come a long way in the last five years. At GMs at Carlisle I saw a 70 442 with a custom built EFI. The owner had started with the bottom half of an old Offy tunnel ram and had replaced the top with an air box. An aftermarket Holley throttle body was on the front of the air box and injector bungs had been welded to the intake runners. The owner said he was running an Accel computer. This setup won't fit under the hood of a Toro, but you get the idea.

Gary41

Here is a possible EFI system that may fit within the confines of those Toronado hoods. I remember there was not much clearance, as I had a '69 w/the 455....A great car..I now wish I still had it! Anyway, this particular system is designed for those Toronado powered GMC Motor Homes.
http://www.rancefi.com/

joe_padavano

From that URL:

$4k and it's BYOManifold...

Obviously manifold selection will impact hood clearance. The one in the left picture appears to be an old Offy 360 single plane. Not the best from a flow standpoint.

As with any custom EFI setup, the configuration and the amount you spend is a function of your skills and checkbook. For the technogeeks among us, the MegaSquirt is a low cost programmable controller that requires skill and a lot of hands-on to get running. My personal favorite is using the TBI injection from an 87-91 Chevy 454 truck. It bolts to the stock intake (the TBI 454 motors used an adapter and a Qjet intake) and the displacement is close enough for it to work as-is on a relatively stock 455 motor.