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..my engine guy (felt that) while we are getting pressure, we are not getting volume.
Bob, that is possible, but if you are recording 50 psi and it didn't drop to zero when you removed a lifter, there is no reason to suspect the volume is restricted. If an oil stream could hit the hood insulation, there is sufficient volume to push the oil up the push rod.
Go stepwise, as you have been doing, and you will find the problem.
Bob, that is possible, but if you are recording 50 psi and it didn't drop to zero when you removed a lifter, there is no reason to suspect the volume is restricted. If an oil stream could hit the hood insulation, there is sufficient volume to push the oil up the push rod.
Gary
That's what our opinion was as well. We're getting 50 PSI with just a drill. But after 30 minutes of trying, bumping, trying, bumping, etc we were never able to get oil through any of the pushrods, and no evidence of oil that should be delivered to the distributor gear, either.
Perhaps Grog installed pushrods so short that they don't push the lifters low enough to get fed by the oil supply hole in the lifter bore (if that's even possible). You could measure to see if that's the case.
If there is no oil stream at the distributor gear, it may be that the wrong oil plug is in that area (no hole in it).
Perhaps Grog installed pushrods so short that they don't push the lifters low enough to get fed by the oil supply hole in the lifter bore (if that's even possible). You could measure to see if that's the case.
If there is no oil stream at the distributor gear, it may be that the wrong oil plug is in that area (no hole in it).
You have hit two points we talked over, and the one that tells me to pull the motor. We didn't have the big calipers to measure specifically, but the pushrods are 9-3/8" on a tape measure. They need to be 9.6", as I understand. They are very snug when the rocker arm bolts are installed, so nothing is loose, but we are not getting the proper and full preload. We're not getting much "push" at the top of the lifter, however we do get oil seeping around the lifters as they move up and down. Second, after seeing zero oil stream at the distributor, we're also convinced the wrong oil plug is installed - and there is the "pull the motor" moment.
Update - I went out with a fresh set of eyes and a single .921 lifter I have as a spare. I pulled one of the rebuilt/refinished original lifters and slid in the new lifter. Guess what pumps oil up the pushrod? Yep. The new replacement lifter. Whatever Egge Machine did to my lifters, it's preventing them from letting oil through. I'm no lifter expert, but I know they come apart. How do I do that, and what am I looking for?
Whatever Egge Machine did to my lifters, it's preventing them from letting oil through. I'm no lifter expert, but I know they come apart. How do I do that, and what am I looking for?
The lifter has a snap ring or wire retainer that holds the plunger in the body. Depress the plunger slightly, remove the retainer and everything comes out. Then look at
Jetmek, thank you! I can likely get a look at the galley plug, and the exploded view of the lifter is excellent. I haven't heard back from Egge despite a call yesterday and an email today. I'm sure they're busy, but they were expensive. I would hope customer service would be part of their reputation.
EDIT - talked to Egge and they did NOT disassemble my lifters before resurfacing them. I'll start tomorrow by pulling each, disassembling and cleaning, and reinstalling to see if that remedies the problem.
Last edited by BSiegPaint; April 23rd, 2024 at 04:46 PM.
Pulled out all the lifters today and found that each one was solidly stuck. Disassembled and cleaned each one and reinstalled into the block. I now have about 6 of the 16 showing active pumping up to the rocker arms, but I guess I haven't gotten the rest in the right spot to fill and pump oil up, as I have run my drill for around 20 minutes with the crank in various positions with no luck. I should have added more oil to each of them before spinning the oil pump. The oiling hole for the distributor gear still remains plugged.
The engine was running until recently. Was your old distributor gear damaged?
If the engine wasnt pulled, that rules out the wrong plug, and no gear lubrication would have destroyed the cam and distributor gears fairly quickly.
Is it possible you are looking for the oil jet at the wrong place?
Well, I drove the car about 3 miles before loading it onto a trailer and bringing it home. At the time the guy I bought it from indicated that he had replaced the timing gear and at least one lifter, and if you dig through my multiple posts, you'll find it had a massive oil leak. From the dents on the oil and trans pan I can see, his "mechanic" had the engine out and did a number of things to it incorrectly, including installing the wrong timing chain and doing a horrible job of sealing up the motor. I don't see any damage to the distributor gears or the old cam gear, but I am also not getting any oil on the drive rod I'm using to spin the oil pump, which I would expect. I've already decided to pull the motor and trans out as I probably should have on Day 1, but at that time I was under the assumption that at least some of the work had been done to a competent level. It will be a good time to replace the seals and such in the transmission anyway, and while the pieces are apart, I'll have a line of sight to the oiling hole in question and can address any concerns at that time.
but I am also not getting any oil on the drive rod I'm using to spin the oil pump, which I would expect.
The oil jet is offset by about 1/2" towards the driver's side. That oil is not going to hit whatever socket you are using to drive the pump shaft.
I just refreshed an engine that had been sitting for decades. That hole was plugged by sludge, and so was the one in the front. My engine was full of sludge, particularly in the lifter valley area.
It does sound like your engine could use some attention outside the car.
Last edited by bw1339; April 29th, 2024 at 05:27 AM.
I should have listened to my inner voice when I thought I could get away with a top end rebuild. I pulled the motor today and stripped it to the bare block. The work done to this motor in the past is something to behold, that’s the best I can say. I found the oiling issue - take a look at the angle of the pickup…
The bottom of the oil pan was dented, but I couldn’t tell really how bad until I got it off. I spent an hour pounding the bottom into submission.
At some point in the past, one piston was replaced. Being lighter in weight than the rest of the pistons, someone carved out the bottoms of the connecting rod caps until the weight was evenly matched. The crank has also been turned .020. There were all sorts of variations in the manner the piston rings were installed. Two were broken.
The main bearings are worn to the copper, so they need to go. Each cylinder wall has one area that looks like they honed it with a wire paint scraper.
The good news - a new set of pushrods will give me the proper valve lash when assembled.
There is one cylinder that shows signs of water being in it. I’m not sure it will come out with a hone. The counter to that, however, is that particular cylinder measured 185 psi when tested. No matter how bad each of these individual cylinders or pistons were, none were below 175, and we measured more than once.
One step forward and eight back today, but it’s ok. If we can turn .010 from this crank and install .030 bearings with new rings and a decent hone, I’m willing to call it good. As much bad as we’ve found, so many things just show how crazy durable and forgiving these motors were and are.
Now I have a little more room to clean more stuff.
Absolutely, Ralph! In post 29 Bob identified the hack as "Grog the Destroyer." Gary
I feel bad for Bob because he is discovering one thing after another. And they defy description. It would make me question anything that was done previously on the car.
Absolutely, Ralph! In post 29 Bob identified the hack as "Grog the Destroyer."
Gary
I forgot to mention in the bottom of the oil pan I found the pushrod socket and the broken lock ring of a lifter that apparently came apart at some time in the past.... Thank goodness there was no other debris other than soft pieces of gasket and bits of silicone. I'm surprised at the crushing the oil pan took - yeah, it looked rumpled at the rear corner (sorry no pics) but I have no idea how hard this must have been hit to mash that oil pickup 40 degrees north. Far worse than I thought once I looked from the inside. The best I can guess is that this motor was torn into back in the late 70's or 80's for the major work, and then the jack wagon I bought it from had his guy just do enough to get it running again. The filth and foul at the bottom of the pan and the total covering of main caps and bolts with this raw Brent crude oil show this probably didn't receive the maintenance it deserved for a long, long time.
The good news is these Olds engines are like Timex watches - they can take a licking and still keep ticking. Although it's going to take a lot of work and new parts (and money), you should be able to get your project squared away in the end, but it will take more of the determination you've already shown. Good luck.
I forgot to mention in the bottom of the oil pan I found the pushrod socket and the broken lock ring of a lifter that apparently came apart at some time in the past.... Thank goodness there was no other debris other than soft pieces of gasket and bits of silicone. I'm surprised at the crushing the oil pan took - yeah, it looked rumpled at the rear corner (sorry no pics) but I have no idea how hard this must have been hit to mash that oil pickup 40 degrees north. Far worse than I thought once I looked from the inside. The best I can guess is that this motor was torn into back in the late 70's or 80's for the major work, and then the jack wagon I bought it from had his guy just do enough to get it running again. The filth and foul at the bottom of the pan and the total covering of main caps and bolts with this raw Brent crude oil show this probably didn't receive the maintenance it deserved for a long, long time.
Bob, I think you are likely correct about the previous "jack wagon". How long did he own it ?
Bob, I think you are likely correct about the previous "jack wagon". How long did he own it ?
It looks like he had it for about three years. Fortunately he also had a '68 in great condition that he drove instead of working on or driving this one. From what I can tell, this engine had an oil leak for many years - some of the oil/dirt I have scraped off the lower half of this engine has been 1/4" thick or more. The craziest thing is that when I originally saw and drove this car, it ran smooth as a sewing machine. Finding all these issues is mind-boggling.
It looks like he had it for about three years. Fortunately he also had a '68 in great condition that he drove instead of working on or driving this one. From what I can tell, this engine had an oil leak for many years - some of the oil/dirt I have scraped off the lower half of this engine has been 1/4" thick or more. The craziest thing is that when I originally saw and drove this car, it ran smooth as a sewing machine. Finding all these issues is mind-boggling.
Bob, I am sure he knew what he had and "bubble gummed" it to run well enough to sell. Good luck in the future.
When I bought my Toronado about 4-5 years ago, I bought it for a reasonable price. The previous owner sad the tranny leaked a little and through in a 4' X 4; pan to keep oil from dripping on the floor. I got about 50 miles (300 miles one way) from home I cut across country through small towns. When I started out from a stoplight, the tranny seemed like it was slipping. The next week, I took it to my transmission Guru to check out the oil leak.. I mentioned the tranny slipping, it was decided to go through it. There were broken parts in the transmission. New parts and a Trans-Go shift kit and it shifts firmly and as smooth as warm butter. .
Many of the instrument and idiot lights didn't work. Pulled instrument cluster and the bulbs were burned out.
A couple weeks ago, I tried to pump up the tired, especially the left front that always leaked air. I pulled all the wheels and tires and hauled them to the tire store to have new tires of the correct size I ordered installed. Guess what, they were made in 2000. So, when I bought the Toronado, the tires were already 20 years old. He was a cheap SOB, owned the car for 44 years and never put a nickle into it.
..........one piston was replaced. Being lighter in weight than the rest of the pistons, someone carved out the bottoms of the connecting rod caps until the weight was evenly matched............ If we can turn .010 from this crank and install .030 bearings with new rings and a decent hone, I’m willing to call it good.
I hate to add to your problems, but removing weight from the big end of a connecting rod does nothing to compensate for a lightweight piston. Reciprocating weight is not the same as rotating weight. Pistons are balanced in batches; rods are balanced as total weight, big end weight and wrist pin end weight. As far as you have gone into this engine, I would highly recommend an overbore, with forged pistons and a complete balance job, to include the rods.
It's a shame it's come to this, but now you can uncover all the issues and then address them all for a perfect product in the end.
Grog the Destroyer of Things really did a number on this one. Bearings are on the way, crank will be sent out once those are received. About a 2-week turnaround on that. Freeze plugs are on the way, rods/pistons are being evaluated and other sets likely procured. It's insane that this engine ran so well with all these issues - but a blown head gasket got this started and probably saved the motor, looking back. Should have just pulled it right then and gone to town. Live and learn.
Hopefully you won't need a crank; however, if you do, I have those. I also believe that I still have a set of 0.030" forged high compression pistons; have to check on those. Please let me know if you need any parts. Thanks, Bob.
Hopefully you won't need a crank; however, if you do, I have those. I also believe that I still have a set of 0.030" forged high compression pistons; have to check on those. Please let me know if you need any parts. Thanks, Bob.
April 23rd, 2024, 05:28 AM
