71OldsCut

Hi, I might have found a 200-4r transmission to buy, but am unsure of what it would be worth. It is out of an 86 Cutlass has been sitting 20 years and has the converter. He says it ran perfect when pulled

I assume after sitting that long it will need a rebuild which is fine. Any idea what a fair price would be?

Also, to swap with my 1971 Cutlass's TH350 is there any addition parts needed? I recall hearing that a TV cable needs to be installed, anything else or the rest just basically bolts up? I have the 350 engine if that matters.

Thanks!

joe_padavano

There are well-documented upgrades that you will want to make to that 200-4R to live in your 71, so you'll be rebuilding it anyway. In addition to the TV cable and associated brackets and carb arm, you'll need some way to activate the lockup mechanism in the torque converter. These are commercially available and can range from a toggle switch to a module that senses manifold vacuum, speed, and RPM. The crossmember moves back to the TH400 position, which means that you will need to swap out the front and intermediate e-brake cables for ones for a TH400 version of your car.

gs72

If you’re not willing to put big money into this. Run far away. They are weak right out of the box. You would be better off going to a Gear Vendors overdrive for almost the same money. The Gear Vendors OD unit is good to 1200 to 2000 your choice.

71OldsCut

That's what I was trying to figure out. It's just a stock 350 in my 1971 Cutlass and it does see much abuse but I know it has more HP than the 1986 Cutlass it came with. If I can figure out what a fair asking price for the trans is and get a feel for what the rebuild kit and required conversion parts are going to run I can figure out if it's a road I want to go down. I have already learned quite a bit and there is a little more needed than I thought, lol.

Any opinions on what a fair asking price for the 200-4r would be?

66SportCoupe

A decent trans shop should be able to build this to 400 hp for $1800

Funkwagon455

Naturally, opinions will vary on your core question. I paid $275 for a 200-4r from an ‘84 Hurst last summer without the converter. It seemed like too much at the time, but then again EVERYTHING seems overpriced these days. I do work for my money though and try to avoid impulsive purchases. I have not used this transmission as of yet, but would like to have the option if I decide to do so. The good cores are not getting more plentiful. Use good judgment and smart gut instinct.

droldsmorland

Unknown if it works, sitting 20 years... 100-200 bux no more than 300 bux as a core.
If you put it in the car without upgrading it and add all the mods Joe mentioned you will be pulling your hair out. It will last a very short duration before smoking the direct and OD clutch packs...and likely some other hard parts if it comes apart hard.

200s are notorious for blowing the direct and OD clutch packs in a car it was meant to be in. Now add that trans to a stronger engine, boom.

At minimum you will need to upgrade these two areas and a few other critical areas while its apart to make it survive behind a mild 350cid. The upgrade kits and other parts are getting cheaper. Art Carr sells a 200 that will do up to 400hp for under 3K. Not sure if that includes drop shipping and a converter.
No idea what a trans shop would charge you to make these mods and install a full service kit. Then you will need a new lock up converter.

As you can tell I'm not a 200 or a 700 fan.

I wish I could find pictures to compare the TH350 internals with a 2004R, in particular the drums. Side by side the 200s internals are significantly smaller. Im from the bigger is better camp.

Maybe tell us a little more about the end goal and whats wrong with the TH350.

71OldsCut

The th350 that is in there I actually rebuilt a few years ago because it didn't have 3rd gear. It works fine now but everytime I get on the higher speed roads I really wish I had another gear. In 3rd its just pulling higher rpm than I would like. We actually just moved out of the city and have a bit of a drive on the highway now so it will see a lot more of this than before.

it also still has the stock rear gear. I would like to go to something better and have limited slip but that will only make the rpm higher so I thought maybe this transmission would be good to do first.

bccan

I’m a guarded 200 supporter. I’ve hurt a few mildly built ones but the last one I had a full build & it has put in 15 years & still going behind a 530 ft/lb engine. Put one in around the same period in kid’s car, used BRF with iirc 100k and it easily has another 100k on it as a daily, year round driver with a warmed over 350 (headers, small hyd roller, intake, big valves, well tuned) & 3.08 for 1800 rpm at 70mph cruising, still doing its thing. Both have been to track days, but not beat on in “normal” use. That BRF did receive a CK shift kit & servo shortly after we installed it.

They are finicky to tune and require a pan drop for every round of valve body, speedo gear and governor tuning. If that core you are contemplating doesn’t have a performance (442/HO) valve body in it, changes will likely be necessary, either to avoid calibration issues or spare extra expense on the build, likely what you need is part of a shift kit. Pedestrian Cutlass may be ok but not a powder puff model or diesel.

Personally, I would pay your friend a few hundred bucks, put a shift kit in it, install it & see if it works. If you go that route, do the servo before install as they can be tough to do in the car, any stuff via the pan can be done after install if you don’t have a good way to do it on a bench.

Be sure to add a drain plug to the pan if one is not present, I consider it mandatory fwiw. Use Duraprene pan gaskets.

I like lock up, some don’t, Art Carr especially.

If you are sticking with mild 350 and not beating it, it should work as is, or a quality rebuild if necessary. Either way, I would recommend a good shift kit & servo. Any more engine than that & it should be built stronger. Stronger than you think you need. They are not cheap to build anymore and you don’t want to hurt one & spend the extra money the second time around. That said and as mentioned above, Gear Vendor is the truly sure bet for stoutness.

I recently sold a core to a friend with some goodies & a CK servo in it that went soft on the 2-3 shift for $250.

Im driving a 69 el Camino with a TH350 in it and definitely miss OD & lockup, at least I have another 200 core with wounded 2-3 that has some goodies in it if I want to take the plunge.

​​​​​​….

Olds64

You mentioned that the car has the OE rear gears, which ones?

Oldsguy's 72 Vista Cruiser (350 & TH 350) drives completely differently than my 71 98 (455 & TH 400).

71OldsCut

I have to check once I get the car out this year. I have checked before but don't recall what gears it has.

droldsmorland

All good info. Its certainly a personal decision. Several vendors are building bullet proof 200 & 700, just not my cup of tea.

IMO the path of least resistance... keep the TH350, add the GV OD.
The installation is relatively simple with basic tools. Shorten the drive shaft and go. Now you have the OEM trans with 6 forward gears.

Close friend just installed a GV OD behind his 350/TH350 73 Nova. Very minor hiccups but overall not bad. GV tech support was very responsive. He absolutely loves the OD. His goal was to keep the #s matching trans.

matt69olds

Good lord, the suggesting a gear vender are way out of touch!!!

Assuming it’s in good condition, is no reason a 2004R won’t live behind a mild 350.

The TV cable HAS to be right, close enough won’t work. Install a TransGo or CK performance shift kit, inspect the stator support tube for wear.

olds 307 and 403

As said behind your stock low compression 350, it will live just fine. I would go with the big Transgo shift kit and a deep pan witn a bottom feed filter. The TH2004R is direct swap, move the crossmember back. You will need an additional linkage and bracket; Performance has it. I used a late 70's Olds 350/403 Qjet with an 80's 307 2004R TV bracket. You will need BBO emergency cables or modify them like me. Also check the stator splines, cheap and easy to replace. Transgo also have pump rings and stiffer pump slide springs. Honestly replace the torque converter seal, rear output seal, add in the parts I mentioned and try it as is. Also it probably has a D9 converter which flashes 300 rpm higher than your current TH350 converter, a good thing. Add in 3.42, 355, 3.73 or 3.90 gearing for similar rpm on the highway, it drops around 1000 rpm and a big improvement off the line acceleration. I would avoid CK Performance, a huge wait, no communication, after starting PayPal money back situation, I received a defective high output pump. Good luck.

matt69olds

It’s been a while since I have done any business with CK Performance. While I never had any issues with him, I have heard about some complaints with customer service. That’s too bad, he is very knowledgeable.

66_Jetstar

100-200 bucks for a core.

Before you pull the trigger on the 200, I'd strongly suggest considering a 4l80e and leave the 200 headache for the next guy. Dollar for dollar the money isn't far apart, and you'll have a bulletproof trans, that is 10x the trans the 200 could ever be, without any exotic parts or requiring a special builder..

joe_padavano

Much as I like the 200-4R (I've built two of them now), I have to agree with this. The 200-4R hasn't been made in almost 35 years. Some of the internal parts, specifically the select-fit washers needed to set the internal clearances, are not available, making it very difficult to build one properly. Maybe these trans shops have private stashes, but I couldn't buy the specific thicknesses I needed recently. The 4L80E is a TH400 with an extra overdrive stage between the pump and the rest of the trans. Many of the internal hard parts swap with those in the TH400. The 4L80E actually fits better in an A-body tunnel than a 700R4, due to that humongous wart of a servo on the passenger side of the 700. Yeah, you need an adapter plate, but those are readily available, and there were about a bazillion 4L80Es built.

OLDSter Ralph

Joe P, do you know the gear ratio's in the 4l80e ?

joe_padavano

In stock form first through third are the same as for a TH400, since the hard parts are the same - 2.48, 1.48, and 1.00. OD is 0.75. There are aftermarket gear sets available in different ratios.

71OldsCut

I have heard this opinion but really don't know details on using one. is there anything special needed to make it work for my application like TV cable, torque converter lockup, ect? I also thought i recall hearing that there are a lot of electronics that need to be added for these. Definitely sounds like a potential option though.

joe_padavano

The 4L80E needs a controller. Shifting is controlled by solenoid valves that are operated by the computer. There are a number of aftermarket controllers available now. Yeah, you can manually shift it with switches operating the valves. At that point, get a manual trans.

71OldsCut

That is certainly an interesting option. From what I have read I don't think rebuilding one would be an option for a novice like myself (only built one, the TH350) so finding a working one would be best but they seem much easier to find. If I just need the adaptor plate, controller and some other readily available parts, shorten the drives haft and it would be close to done that might be my best option.

Does the cross member move to the TH400 spot or is more modification needed there?

joe_padavano

The 4L80E is longer than the TH400, so the crossmember moves even further back. You'll be drilling new holes.

cdrod

I bought a CRF coded 200-4r pulled from a Monte Carlo about 6 years ago, paid $200 for the trans with the lock-up convertor. The seller said is was in working condition, but I never found out if this was a true statement as I found a BQ coded 200-4r out of a Buick GN for $75. So I sold the CRF trans and got my $200 investment back, then had Mike Kurtz in Texas build the Buick trans with the pressure switch to lock-up the convertor in 4th gear. Mike has been building & modding the 200-4r for years and had most of the hard to find parts that Joe mentioned on the shelf. Mike installed a 13-vane pump (the stock pump has 7-vanes), used roller torrington bearings in place of the thrust washers, milled the OD drum down to allow an additional clutch pack in OD, used a wide intermediate band and installed large servo. My only complaint is the 2-1 downshift is pretty harsh, so I need to take the car back to Mike for adjustments.

Rodney

66_Jetstar

That is the big advantage of the 4l80e. There is no need to buy expensive billet parts or source anything from niche suppliers. There is no need to reengineer anything. The stock parts are plenty rugged. That trans was in production for 20ish years. Parts and cores are cheap and everywhere. Plus any rebuilder can do it.

71OldsCut

Compared to a TH350, how difficult are they to rebuild? I was surprised how easy the TH350 was and actually didn't mind doing it but have heard they are about as easy as it gets. I feel like as long as I have a good rebuild manual like I did with the TH350 I would be fine but maybe there is a lot more complexity or special tools needed...

joe_padavano

Are you asking about the 200-4R or the 4L80E? Both require some specialized tools that make it much easier, though the CK book shows you work-arounds. The 200-4R has some pretty fussy internal clearances that require care in setting. It's not difficult, but it does require attention to detail. One of the Kent-Moore trans holders (or equivalent) really helps here.

71OldsCut

That is good to know, but I was more asking about the 4l80e. I'm just wondering if it ends up being a better option for me if I can do the rebuild or if I should include having to pay someone in the budget.

joe_padavano

The 4L80E also requires some special tools. I managed to score a complete set in the GM crate some years ago on Ebay. I have not built one yet, but I plan to put one in the 64 Vista.

71OldsCut

Awesome, thanks. I will do some research and watch some videos to see if it is something I am comfortable trying

matt69olds

You can do a poor man’s manual valve body by using the internal pressure switch manifold to control the shift solenoids. You still need a switch for the lockup converter.

Without the EPC solenoid connected, line pressure is maxed out.

Look up homemade manual valve body for 4L80. There are also a bunch of YouTube videos. Jakes Performance also sells a plug in control box that does the internal modifications for you, just plug it in and connect a couple wires. Don’t even need to drop the transmission pan.

I have done the homemade valve body, it works pretty well.

matt69olds

Buy extra seals for the overdrive piston, just in case you cut one. I have the fancy Kent Moore seal protectors, it’s still a pain in the ***. HydraMatic definitely engineered that assembly far more complicated than it needed to be.

Other than the overdrive piston and carrier, it’s basically a TH400 from the forward clutch back.

joe_padavano

And the TH400 is a really easy trans to rebuild. I've done a couple of them now. I also managed to snag a set of Kent Moore bushing replacement tools, which really make that job a lot easier.

Fun71

So what do you do for a speedometer when using the 4L80-E transmission?

joe_padavano

Either pay for a modified tail housing with speedo cable provision or pay for a speedo drive box that reads the VSS and outputs a speedo cable drive or get a GPS speedo. The vendors cleverly charge pretty much the same for each of those options.

66_Jetstar

I have been running a Dakota Digital converter box for seven years in my Dmax/allison powered square body. It's been flawless.

matt69olds

Or pay to have your existing speedo converted to a stepper motor drive. Redline gauges is one vender who comes to mind, there are lots of speedometer repair shops who can do the conversion.

From what I understand, they are using aftermarket speedometer (like Autometer or VDO) and modifying them to fit in the factory housing. Other than the odometer is now digital they look identical to factory. Some also include a trip odometer.

If I remember correctly, it’s more expensive than the other options.

71OldsCut

There is actually a 4L80e near me from a 96 3/4 ton truck. Still working in the truck with a 90 day warranty, they will pull it too. From what I have read a 1996 or 97 would be the best years for my application. Asking $450. Seems like a great starting point to me, what do you guys think? Mileage will be confirmed soon.

matt69olds

The early 4L80 can be easily identified by the cooler lines up front in the typical location. The later (99 I think) went to a center lube design. Instead of cooling/lubrication oil going thru the shafts, the center lube models have solid shafts and oil on the outside of the shafts. There are a ton of subtle differences in internal components and big differences in bearings and bushings.

The story I heard for the redesign is GM was considering the 4L80 for use behind the duramax engine. They went to the solid shaft and lube circuit redesign in anticipation of the torque from the diesel.

There is also a “late” center lube design that has a bellhousing bolt hole at the 12 o’clock position. It has some case casting changes, and different pump design.

In either case, the center lube models absolutely HAVE to have a rear cooler fitting with the extended nipple. People have installed regular cooler fittings in that hole, and burnt up the trans almost immediately. Without the extended nipple, the lube oil drains into the pan instead of going into the lubrication circuit.

TransGo has some very good interchange and identifying information on their tech resource page. You can burn up the planetary gear sets in a very short distance if you have parts mismatched.


The earlier design also uses a larger overdrive sprag and is supposedly a stronger design. For really high output engines, people have used the stronger earlier input sprag design in the later center lube models.

Either way, as long as the fluid is clean, and doesn’t smell burnt, it’s probably a good buy. Install a SONNAX boost valve in the pump. Some of the earlier 4L80 has issues with the reverse boost valve wearing and sticking. If the valve sticks (especially on a cold start) line pressure can go well beyond 500psi in reverse. That can easily break lots of parts, if you’re lucky it will just crack the piston, servo, or the band. If you’re unlucky, it can break the case. The Sonnax boost valve solves the problem. TransGo includes a pressure relief system to eliminate the concern, but it can sometimes creat other problems.

I like Jakes Performance calibration kit, but unfortunately it requires minor transmission disassembly to install. The TransGo shift kit can be installed without transmission removal or disassembly, but isn’t as good a kit in my opinion. If you go TransGo, don’t do the pressure relief modifications.

71OldsCut

Thanks for all the info, much appreciated! Depending on milage would it be OK to install as is or are there mods needed for it to work where it should be rebuilt regardless? It seems like the truck it's coming out of has more power that my Cutlass so I'm sure it is plenty strong.

As long as it would work I might be comfortable rolling the dice and installing it with whatever else is needed to make it function (electronics, shorter drive shaft, ect). Worst case it takes a crap a few months in and I take it off for a rebuild at that point.