Please help with issues with my newly rebuilt 200-4R
May 17th, 2016, 01:04 AM
#1
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Please help with issues with my newly rebuilt 200-4R
I have tested my newly rebuilt 200-4R now, in my 1972 Vista Cruiser on an 800 mile round trip through California and although it has been performing well overall, there are still a few things that worry me and don’t seem right. I rebuilt the transmission with upgraded hard ware, all Red Altos, larger TV and reverse boost valves and springs, and a stock servo for mild use in my daily driver. The TV cable and throttle lever geometry are both set-up right.
Here what’s going on: First, I know I have a mild Oldsmobile 88 valve block and governor, but all shifts seem to happen pretty early under light throttle (1-2 before 10 mph, 2-3 happens at 15 to 20 mph and 3-4 at 25- 30mph,), but what worries me is that at all except very slow acceleration the transmission has a very odd 2-3 up-shift where the engine rpm rises first, for a moment, like the second gear clutch pack is letting loose before the third gear engages. Usually, I just let up on the throttle when I can felt the shift coming because I don’t want to slip the transmission more than necessary. If I leave the gear lever in second and up-shift manually into third at 20, 30 or 40 mph, I don’t seem to have any slipping, but just a quick, positive up-shift to third gear... Could some sticking valve cause this or a missing check ball?
Another thing that worries me were the pressures I read when I was initially testing out the transmission in all the gears. First, even with the TV cable disconnected, the pressures seem to increase quite a bit just by blipping the throttle. Does the governor cause that because it obviously can’t be the TV valve? Second, with the gear selector in 1 and 2 the pressures with the TV connected jump from 125psi to 200psi as soon as I touch the throttle. If keep driving along in 2nd and then I manually shift to third and fourth, the pressure will stay up the whole time. But, if I slow down for too long or I just cruise along at steady speed (pressure) for a long time, the pressure suddenly drops back down to the same 60 to 80psi, as if it was idling. If I didn’t start out with the selector in 1 or 2, I would be driving around all day long and the pressures in position 3 and 4 would only indicate 60 to 80psi. Nothing feels different in the way the transmissions acts. Is it possible that I'm getting faulty readings of my transmission gauge because there is air in the flexible pipe coming from the port above the shift lever that causes the gauge to not always indicate correctly? Otherwise, the transmission performs as I would expect. It downshifts under kick-down, even drops two gears at a time when floored in 4th.
Also, I didn’t notice this on my entire 800 miles test drive up and down the coast, but now, on the rougher freeways in L.A., I feel a vibration. At first I was worried the transmission was completely loose or that my new drive shaft was about to blow out. I checked it out and nothing seems obviously loose, but I can deflect the yoke in the transmission back and forth noticeably (not easy, but I can see it clearly), probably about 1/32 inch in each direction which seems like that would easily be enough to cause vibration. Of course, I used a new rear transmission bushing and the yoke is also new and has plenty of overlap. Is this much play normal at the rear yoke?
Finally, my torque converter lock-up seemed to, at first, work the way I hoped when I used a normally open 4th gear switch inside the valve block, plus a dash switch to activate the lock-up solenoid. But now, the lock-up also stays on in all the other gears which seems impossible, if the valve body switch only is supposed to activate in 4th gear. I guess it’s possible that switch already failed in the closed position? Also, how can the engine keep running after I come to a stop with the torque converter locked up? Can the lock-up clutch slip that easy? If it does, then I’m surprised it can take enough torque when it’s supposed to lock the engine/ torque converter directly to the input shaft…
Oh, and gas mileage was about 17.5 mpg. I was hoping for a bit better since I already got 15 mpg out of my TH 375....
Here what’s going on: First, I know I have a mild Oldsmobile 88 valve block and governor, but all shifts seem to happen pretty early under light throttle (1-2 before 10 mph, 2-3 happens at 15 to 20 mph and 3-4 at 25- 30mph,), but what worries me is that at all except very slow acceleration the transmission has a very odd 2-3 up-shift where the engine rpm rises first, for a moment, like the second gear clutch pack is letting loose before the third gear engages. Usually, I just let up on the throttle when I can felt the shift coming because I don’t want to slip the transmission more than necessary. If I leave the gear lever in second and up-shift manually into third at 20, 30 or 40 mph, I don’t seem to have any slipping, but just a quick, positive up-shift to third gear... Could some sticking valve cause this or a missing check ball?
Another thing that worries me were the pressures I read when I was initially testing out the transmission in all the gears. First, even with the TV cable disconnected, the pressures seem to increase quite a bit just by blipping the throttle. Does the governor cause that because it obviously can’t be the TV valve? Second, with the gear selector in 1 and 2 the pressures with the TV connected jump from 125psi to 200psi as soon as I touch the throttle. If keep driving along in 2nd and then I manually shift to third and fourth, the pressure will stay up the whole time. But, if I slow down for too long or I just cruise along at steady speed (pressure) for a long time, the pressure suddenly drops back down to the same 60 to 80psi, as if it was idling. If I didn’t start out with the selector in 1 or 2, I would be driving around all day long and the pressures in position 3 and 4 would only indicate 60 to 80psi. Nothing feels different in the way the transmissions acts. Is it possible that I'm getting faulty readings of my transmission gauge because there is air in the flexible pipe coming from the port above the shift lever that causes the gauge to not always indicate correctly? Otherwise, the transmission performs as I would expect. It downshifts under kick-down, even drops two gears at a time when floored in 4th.
Also, I didn’t notice this on my entire 800 miles test drive up and down the coast, but now, on the rougher freeways in L.A., I feel a vibration. At first I was worried the transmission was completely loose or that my new drive shaft was about to blow out. I checked it out and nothing seems obviously loose, but I can deflect the yoke in the transmission back and forth noticeably (not easy, but I can see it clearly), probably about 1/32 inch in each direction which seems like that would easily be enough to cause vibration. Of course, I used a new rear transmission bushing and the yoke is also new and has plenty of overlap. Is this much play normal at the rear yoke?
Finally, my torque converter lock-up seemed to, at first, work the way I hoped when I used a normally open 4th gear switch inside the valve block, plus a dash switch to activate the lock-up solenoid. But now, the lock-up also stays on in all the other gears which seems impossible, if the valve body switch only is supposed to activate in 4th gear. I guess it’s possible that switch already failed in the closed position? Also, how can the engine keep running after I come to a stop with the torque converter locked up? Can the lock-up clutch slip that easy? If it does, then I’m surprised it can take enough torque when it’s supposed to lock the engine/ torque converter directly to the input shaft…
Oh, and gas mileage was about 17.5 mpg. I was hoping for a bit better since I already got 15 mpg out of my TH 375....
May 17th, 2016, 03:56 PM
#2
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 719
I have tested my newly rebuilt 200-4R now, in my 1972 Vista Cruiser on an 800 mile round trip through California and although it has been performing well overall, there are still a few things that worry me and don’t seem right. I rebuilt the transmission with upgraded hard ware, all Red Altos, larger TV and reverse boost valves and springs, and a stock servo for mild use in my daily driver. The TV cable and throttle lever geometry are both set-up right.
Here what’s going on: First, I know I have a mild Oldsmobile 88 valve block and governor, but all shifts seem to happen pretty early under light throttle (1-2 before 10 mph, 2-3 happens at 15 to 20 mph and 3-4 at 25- 30mph,), but what worries me is that at all except very slow acceleration the transmission has a very odd 2-3 up-shift where the engine rpm rises first, for a moment, like the second gear clutch pack is letting loose before the third gear engages. Usually, I just let up on the throttle when I can felt the shift coming because I don’t want to slip the transmission more than necessary. If I leave the gear lever in second and up-shift manually into third at 20, 30 or 40 mph, I don’t seem to have any slipping, but just a quick, positive up-shift to third gear... Could some sticking valve cause this or a missing check ball?
Another thing that worries me were the pressures I read when I was initially testing out the transmission in all the gears. First, even with the TV cable disconnected, the pressures seem to increase quite a bit just by blipping the throttle. Does the governor cause that because it obviously can’t be the TV valve? Second, with the gear selector in 1 and 2 the pressures with the TV connected jump from 125psi to 200psi as soon as I touch the throttle. If keep driving along in 2nd and then I manually shift to third and fourth, the pressure will stay up the whole time. But, if I slow down for too long or I just cruise along at steady speed (pressure) for a long time, the pressure suddenly drops back down to the same 60 to 80psi, as if it was idling. If I didn’t start out with the selector in 1 or 2, I would be driving around all day long and the pressures in position 3 and 4 would only indicate 60 to 80psi. Nothing feels different in the way the transmissions acts. Is it possible that I'm getting faulty readings of my transmission gauge because there is air in the flexible pipe coming from the port above the shift lever that causes the gauge to not always indicate correctly? Otherwise, the transmission performs as I would expect. It downshifts under kick-down, even drops two gears at a time when floored in 4th.
Also, I didn’t notice this on my entire 800 miles test drive up and down the coast, but now, on the rougher freeways in L.A., I feel a vibration. At first I was worried the transmission was completely loose or that my new drive shaft was about to blow out. I checked it out and nothing seems obviously loose, but I can deflect the yoke in the transmission back and forth noticeably (not easy, but I can see it clearly), probably about 1/32 inch in each direction which seems like that would easily be enough to cause vibration. Of course, I used a new rear transmission bushing and the yoke is also new and has plenty of overlap. Is this much play normal at the rear yoke?
Finally, my torque converter lock-up seemed to, at first, work the way I hoped when I used a normally open 4th gear switch inside the valve block, plus a dash switch to activate the lock-up solenoid. But now, the lock-up also stays on in all the other gears which seems impossible, if the valve body switch only is supposed to activate in 4th gear. I guess it’s possible that switch already failed in the closed position? Also, how can the engine keep running after I come to a stop with the torque converter locked up? Can the lock-up clutch slip that easy? If it does, then I’m surprised it can take enough torque when it’s supposed to lock the engine/ torque converter directly to the input shaft…
Oh, and gas mileage was about 17.5 mpg. I was hoping for a bit better since I already got 15 mpg out of my TH 375....
Here what’s going on: First, I know I have a mild Oldsmobile 88 valve block and governor, but all shifts seem to happen pretty early under light throttle (1-2 before 10 mph, 2-3 happens at 15 to 20 mph and 3-4 at 25- 30mph,), but what worries me is that at all except very slow acceleration the transmission has a very odd 2-3 up-shift where the engine rpm rises first, for a moment, like the second gear clutch pack is letting loose before the third gear engages. Usually, I just let up on the throttle when I can felt the shift coming because I don’t want to slip the transmission more than necessary. If I leave the gear lever in second and up-shift manually into third at 20, 30 or 40 mph, I don’t seem to have any slipping, but just a quick, positive up-shift to third gear... Could some sticking valve cause this or a missing check ball?
Another thing that worries me were the pressures I read when I was initially testing out the transmission in all the gears. First, even with the TV cable disconnected, the pressures seem to increase quite a bit just by blipping the throttle. Does the governor cause that because it obviously can’t be the TV valve? Second, with the gear selector in 1 and 2 the pressures with the TV connected jump from 125psi to 200psi as soon as I touch the throttle. If keep driving along in 2nd and then I manually shift to third and fourth, the pressure will stay up the whole time. But, if I slow down for too long or I just cruise along at steady speed (pressure) for a long time, the pressure suddenly drops back down to the same 60 to 80psi, as if it was idling. If I didn’t start out with the selector in 1 or 2, I would be driving around all day long and the pressures in position 3 and 4 would only indicate 60 to 80psi. Nothing feels different in the way the transmissions acts. Is it possible that I'm getting faulty readings of my transmission gauge because there is air in the flexible pipe coming from the port above the shift lever that causes the gauge to not always indicate correctly? Otherwise, the transmission performs as I would expect. It downshifts under kick-down, even drops two gears at a time when floored in 4th.
Also, I didn’t notice this on my entire 800 miles test drive up and down the coast, but now, on the rougher freeways in L.A., I feel a vibration. At first I was worried the transmission was completely loose or that my new drive shaft was about to blow out. I checked it out and nothing seems obviously loose, but I can deflect the yoke in the transmission back and forth noticeably (not easy, but I can see it clearly), probably about 1/32 inch in each direction which seems like that would easily be enough to cause vibration. Of course, I used a new rear transmission bushing and the yoke is also new and has plenty of overlap. Is this much play normal at the rear yoke?
Finally, my torque converter lock-up seemed to, at first, work the way I hoped when I used a normally open 4th gear switch inside the valve block, plus a dash switch to activate the lock-up solenoid. But now, the lock-up also stays on in all the other gears which seems impossible, if the valve body switch only is supposed to activate in 4th gear. I guess it’s possible that switch already failed in the closed position? Also, how can the engine keep running after I come to a stop with the torque converter locked up? Can the lock-up clutch slip that easy? If it does, then I’m surprised it can take enough torque when it’s supposed to lock the engine/ torque converter directly to the input shaft…
Oh, and gas mileage was about 17.5 mpg. I was hoping for a bit better since I already got 15 mpg out of my TH 375....
May 17th, 2016, 04:29 PM
#3
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I did some more reading and it sounds like a soft or "flare" shift from 2 to 3 isn't that uncommon, at least on the later 4L60-E transmissions. They say to look into the right length of the servo pin and maybe the springs although I think the play of my servo checked out alright and the springs were part of a Transgo shift kit...
May 18th, 2016, 12:17 AM
#4
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Thanks. So it sounds like the torque converter is working as it should then? I thought the switch inside the valve body was only supposed to be pressurized when the transmission hits 4th gear.
I did some more reading and it sounds like a soft or "flare" shift from 2 to 3 isn't that uncommon, at least on the later 4L60-E transmissions. They say to look into the right length of the servo pin and maybe the springs although I think the play of my servo checked out alright and the springs were part of a Transgo shift kit...
I did some more reading and it sounds like a soft or "flare" shift from 2 to 3 isn't that uncommon, at least on the later 4L60-E transmissions. They say to look into the right length of the servo pin and maybe the springs although I think the play of my servo checked out alright and the springs were part of a Transgo shift kit...
Yes, you may be getting flare in 3rd, but I am not that good at diagnosing problems with them, and what could be causing it. I would leave it parked until you can figure it out and get it fix and hope you haven't driven it much with it doing that.
May 18th, 2016, 11:43 AM
#5
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There is pressures for idle and 1500 rpm. I would say as long as you are on the good side of stock pressures, you are fine. The Transgo kit is not harsh, even with the billet servo. You will know if the converter is locking up in low, it will stall your motor.
June 4th, 2016, 11:05 AM
#6
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What 2nd servo are you using? How did you set the clearance on it? What about the direct clutches? What did you set their clearance at?
If you didn't measure these things I would say your unit isn't going to go too long with the mushy shifts. You might be able to band aid it for a while with a large aftermarket servo and setting it up with a .060 clearance.
When I set mine up I did it without the springs and seals and measured the clearance between the servo cover and retaining ring with a stack of feeler gauges. We had to assemble and remove it several times to get the pin length correct. We just filed it down to sneak up on the .060 clearance we wanted. Then assembled it with its seals and springs and tested it with air pressure to the exhaust port in the pan rail in the case. When you apply air you shouldn't be able to turn the output shaft and with out pressure you can turn the out put shaft but it will have some drag.
To do the directs some disassembly will have to happen. They need to be tight to get a good crisp shift. I used a raybestos red stage one clutch and a bunch of different steels to get the clearance to .050 though many try to get it to .040 or so. Mine is still pretty snappy and it has been in the car for almost two years.
As far as the pressure, it sounds like a sticky tv valve. I fooled with mine on the bench and ended up putting in a spring on the end of the valve to get it to return. Usually if you have over 100psi at idle you end up with 2nd gear starts.
If you didn't measure these things I would say your unit isn't going to go too long with the mushy shifts. You might be able to band aid it for a while with a large aftermarket servo and setting it up with a .060 clearance.
When I set mine up I did it without the springs and seals and measured the clearance between the servo cover and retaining ring with a stack of feeler gauges. We had to assemble and remove it several times to get the pin length correct. We just filed it down to sneak up on the .060 clearance we wanted. Then assembled it with its seals and springs and tested it with air pressure to the exhaust port in the pan rail in the case. When you apply air you shouldn't be able to turn the output shaft and with out pressure you can turn the out put shaft but it will have some drag.
To do the directs some disassembly will have to happen. They need to be tight to get a good crisp shift. I used a raybestos red stage one clutch and a bunch of different steels to get the clearance to .050 though many try to get it to .040 or so. Mine is still pretty snappy and it has been in the car for almost two years.
As far as the pressure, it sounds like a sticky tv valve. I fooled with mine on the bench and ended up putting in a spring on the end of the valve to get it to return. Usually if you have over 100psi at idle you end up with 2nd gear starts.
June 6th, 2016, 11:34 PM
#7
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It looks like I missed some responses here. Thanks. Rich, I think the second gear servo is the one on the side of the transmission. The others inside are the 1/2 and the 3/4 accumulators? Like I said, I'm only using the stock (OG) servo piston with a Superior shift kit spring. I specifically chose not to install a bigger servo yet, since I didn't really want a hard shifting transmission for my stock powered Vista Cruiser and also I wanted to learn what improvements would give me a certain behavior.... I can't believe that only the stock servo could be the cause for this kind of lazy 2/3 shift on and I think your question about the direct clutch may point to the more likely cause? Cruizin77 also suggested that I should look at my clutch clearances and I have to admit, that I didn't do that at all when I rebuilt the transmission without any manual! I just assumed that I would put in as many Red Alto plates and Kolene steels as I took out and that would be it. In all my research I never saw anything that said that the performance parts had different dimensions and had to be shimmed up with extra steel plates? As it turns out my low/reverse clutch pack has a whopping 0.132" clearance and my directs (those are the ones right behind the primary pump, right?) have about 0.1" clearance. Is that responsible for my slow shift right there?
That said, it's hard to believe with that much clearance AND no pressure rise, I didn't fry my clutch plates. I had the pan off twice now, had the transmission fluid analyzed by a lab. after my first 800 mile "test drive" (came back as "no abnormal wear") and I can't tell at all that the transmission isn't shifting or grabbing right except for the one slow shift. The fluid doesn't smell and is only a bit darker after 800 miles with a very small bit of soft sludge accumulation in the pan. Does that sounds normal? Luckily, I haven't done much WOT shifting, maybe once or twice, but I backed off as soon as I noticed the slipping.
Either way, it looks like I have to take the transmission apart again to correct the clearances. Does anyone have a copy of the section of the manual that talks about the clutch pack clearances?
As far as the TV valve goes, I've re-set it and snapped the plunger in the valve body, that the throttle bracket assembly pushes on, back and forth many times and it feels like it's moving like it should, so I can't explain that I am getting no increase in pressure. What about the pressure regulator valve? That's the one in the primary pump right? Could that be sticking and cause low pressure? I don't think I can get to that without taking the transmission apart?...
I still can't figure out why my transmission didn't self destruct with so many miles and so many errors. This is why I kept going and for a moment I even thought my pressure gauge must be reading too low, so I bought a new one that reads even lower :-). Even now, I feel like I could drive it as long as I go easy with my shifts and acceleration.
Thanks for all your help so far.
Tom
That said, it's hard to believe with that much clearance AND no pressure rise, I didn't fry my clutch plates. I had the pan off twice now, had the transmission fluid analyzed by a lab. after my first 800 mile "test drive" (came back as "no abnormal wear") and I can't tell at all that the transmission isn't shifting or grabbing right except for the one slow shift. The fluid doesn't smell and is only a bit darker after 800 miles with a very small bit of soft sludge accumulation in the pan. Does that sounds normal? Luckily, I haven't done much WOT shifting, maybe once or twice, but I backed off as soon as I noticed the slipping.
Either way, it looks like I have to take the transmission apart again to correct the clearances. Does anyone have a copy of the section of the manual that talks about the clutch pack clearances?
As far as the TV valve goes, I've re-set it and snapped the plunger in the valve body, that the throttle bracket assembly pushes on, back and forth many times and it feels like it's moving like it should, so I can't explain that I am getting no increase in pressure. What about the pressure regulator valve? That's the one in the primary pump right? Could that be sticking and cause low pressure? I don't think I can get to that without taking the transmission apart?...
I still can't figure out why my transmission didn't self destruct with so many miles and so many errors. This is why I kept going and for a moment I even thought my pressure gauge must be reading too low, so I bought a new one that reads even lower :-). Even now, I feel like I could drive it as long as I go easy with my shifts and acceleration.
Thanks for all your help so far.
Tom
June 6th, 2016, 11:46 PM
#8
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BTW, I also replaced the 4th gear pressure switch that is supposed to activate the TC lockup in 4th gear. I installed a new one 800 miles ago, but it already failed in the closed position which is why mine locked up as soon as it got power... I have no idea why the engine didn't die when I came to a stop which is why I asked if the TC lock-up clutch can slip... This is all secondary, of course, but I thought I'd mention it in case someone had something to say about that :-)..
June 7th, 2016, 05:46 AM
#9
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It looks like I missed some responses here. Thanks. Rich, I think the second gear servo is the one on the side of the transmission. The others inside are the 1/2 and the 3/4 accumulators? Like I said, I'm only using the stock (OG) servo piston with a Superior shift kit spring. I specifically chose not to install a bigger servo yet, since I didn't really want a hard shifting transmission for my stock powered Vista Cruiser and also I wanted to learn what improvements would give me a certain behavior.... I can't believe that only the stock servo could be the cause for this kind of lazy 2/3 shift on and I think your question about the direct clutch may point to the more likely cause? Cruizin77 also suggested that I should look at my clutch clearances and I have to admit, that I didn't do that at all when I rebuilt the transmission without any manual! I just assumed that I would put in as many Red Alto plates and Kolene steels as I took out and that would be it. In all my research I never saw anything that said that the performance parts had different dimensions and had to be shimmed up with extra steel plates? As it turns out my low/reverse clutch pack has a whopping 0.132" clearance and my directs (those are the ones right behind the primary pump, right?) have about 0.1" clearance. Is that responsible for my slow shift right there?
That said, it's hard to believe with that much clearance AND no pressure rise, I didn't fry my clutch plates. I had the pan off twice now, had the transmission fluid analyzed by a lab. after my first 800 mile "test drive" (came back as "no abnormal wear") and I can't tell at all that the transmission isn't shifting or grabbing right except for the one slow shift. The fluid doesn't smell and is only a bit darker after 800 miles with a very small bit of soft sludge accumulation in the pan. Does that sounds normal? Luckily, I haven't done much WOT shifting, maybe once or twice, but I backed off as soon as I noticed the slipping.
Either way, it looks like I have to take the transmission apart again to correct the clearances. Does anyone have a copy of the section of the manual that talks about the clutch pack clearances?
As far as the TV valve goes, I've re-set it and snapped the plunger in the valve body, that the throttle bracket assembly pushes on, back and forth many times and it feels like it's moving like it should, so I can't explain that I am getting no increase in pressure. What about the pressure regulator valve? That's the one in the primary pump right? Could that be sticking and cause low pressure? I don't think I can get to that without taking the transmission apart?...
I still can't figure out why my transmission didn't self destruct with so many miles and so many errors. This is why I kept going and for a moment I even thought my pressure gauge must be reading too low, so I bought a new one that reads even lower :-). Even now, I feel like I could drive it as long as I go easy with my shifts and acceleration.
Thanks for all your help so far.
Tom
That said, it's hard to believe with that much clearance AND no pressure rise, I didn't fry my clutch plates. I had the pan off twice now, had the transmission fluid analyzed by a lab. after my first 800 mile "test drive" (came back as "no abnormal wear") and I can't tell at all that the transmission isn't shifting or grabbing right except for the one slow shift. The fluid doesn't smell and is only a bit darker after 800 miles with a very small bit of soft sludge accumulation in the pan. Does that sounds normal? Luckily, I haven't done much WOT shifting, maybe once or twice, but I backed off as soon as I noticed the slipping.
Either way, it looks like I have to take the transmission apart again to correct the clearances. Does anyone have a copy of the section of the manual that talks about the clutch pack clearances?
As far as the TV valve goes, I've re-set it and snapped the plunger in the valve body, that the throttle bracket assembly pushes on, back and forth many times and it feels like it's moving like it should, so I can't explain that I am getting no increase in pressure. What about the pressure regulator valve? That's the one in the primary pump right? Could that be sticking and cause low pressure? I don't think I can get to that without taking the transmission apart?...
I still can't figure out why my transmission didn't self destruct with so many miles and so many errors. This is why I kept going and for a moment I even thought my pressure gauge must be reading too low, so I bought a new one that reads even lower :-). Even now, I feel like I could drive it as long as I go easy with my shifts and acceleration.
Thanks for all your help so far.
Tom
That servo is also the accumulator for the 2-3 shift so it will contribute to a mushy shift.
those big clutches behind the pump are the o/d clutches. The low/rev are the first ones in and dep in the case. The direct and the band are the two main ones as they affect the shift. The others are applied when the car is sitting still so they don't have to do as much.
Last edited by TexasT; June 7th, 2016 at 05:50 AM. Reason: added
June 7th, 2016, 06:15 AM
#10
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What kind of pressure are you getting in park at idle? "It should be" between 60 and 80 psi. The 1-2 shift is supposed to happen between 17-20 mph. I think you need to tighten the tv cable a bit. My understanding is soft and early = too loose. But here's the rub; I'm currently trying to dial mine in and what I have found is that to get the nice firm, late shifts I have to make the TV cable so tight that I can't get WOT. I think it's a TV spring issue; either too short or too long. I even bought a mid 80s Q-jet so that the geometry would be correct, which it is.
It could be the internals you folks are discussing (which is over my head) but start simple. I'm running about 70 psi in park with a 700-750 rpm idle. When I had the cable too loose, it read more like 40-50 psi and I had what they call "stacked shifts", all in by 30 mph. That can be very bad for the trans.
It could be the internals you folks are discussing (which is over my head) but start simple. I'm running about 70 psi in park with a 700-750 rpm idle. When I had the cable too loose, it read more like 40-50 psi and I had what they call "stacked shifts", all in by 30 mph. That can be very bad for the trans.
Last edited by Macadoo; June 7th, 2016 at 06:18 AM.
June 7th, 2016, 06:28 AM
#11
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The 694 servo that came in the brf trans in the turbo regal is the largest that came from the factory in a 2004r. I think I read where performance.com is reproducing them.
as far as the tv valve, I goofed with mine with the vb on the bench. I pushed the plunger and watched the valve move then let the plunger go and watched the valve go back to the at rest position. I ended up with a spring behind the valve so it would go back other wise it was lazy about it. I think this might be part of your problem. The valve isn't going back to the at rest position so the pressure doesn't go back down until it does.
as far as the tv valve, I goofed with mine with the vb on the bench. I pushed the plunger and watched the valve move then let the plunger go and watched the valve go back to the at rest position. I ended up with a spring behind the valve so it would go back other wise it was lazy about it. I think this might be part of your problem. The valve isn't going back to the at rest position so the pressure doesn't go back down until it does.
Last edited by TexasT; June 7th, 2016 at 06:44 AM. Reason: added
June 7th, 2016, 06:49 AM
#12
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I made my own tv spring. I have since found out that son a sell one. I was told be one of the guru builders to use a spring that has a 2.1" length so I made one. I also used a smaller spring behind the tv valve . It was about the size of one that would be in a ball point pen but I got it at the hard ware store. The local ace has a pretty good selection of hardware including all sorts of springs.
Last edited by TexasT; June 7th, 2016 at 06:51 AM.
June 7th, 2016, 07:01 AM
#13
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here are the pressures I got with the .500 boost valve, .283 rev/boost valve and the 700 spring. I was also told to put a washer between the roll pin and spring on the over pressure valve as the pin can wear on the spring causing it to break a coil off and loose tension and make the trans loose pressure.
have you looked at my thread on assembly? It might help you lots of pix.
June 7th, 2016, 07:27 AM
#14
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There are several good 2004R rebuild manuals out there, notably the CK Performance book with various enhancements.
Best bet might be talking it through with a recognized builder and getting their ideas on what to work on. It'll be a shot in the dark since it's not their unit and you may not buy anything from them.
Dr Dan does 2004R rebuilds himself and may have some pointers on where to look.
Welcome to the DIY Trans Rebuild Club! I returned my membership card immediately after getting it in the mail.
June 8th, 2016, 12:09 AM
#15
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those "569" servo are just not big enough to apply the pressure and make a clean 1-2 shift. I like my son as and it was the most expensive, but I like to think I got what I paid for.
That servo is also the accumulator for the 2-3 shift so it will contribute to a mushy shift.
those big clutches behind the pump are the o/d clutches. The low/rev are the first ones in and dep in the case. The direct and the band are the two main ones as they affect the shift. The others are applied when the car is sitting still so they don't have to do as much.
That servo is also the accumulator for the 2-3 shift so it will contribute to a mushy shift.
those big clutches behind the pump are the o/d clutches. The low/rev are the first ones in and dep in the case. The direct and the band are the two main ones as they affect the shift. The others are applied when the car is sitting still so they don't have to do as much.
After reading all the comments here and a troubleshooting guide from a B & M shift kit, I think I will take the pressure regulator valve out of the pump to check if I got something wrong on the order of the valves.
I checked the TV valve again and it just doesn't seem like it's sticking and a faulty pressure regulator valve is listed as a likely source for a soft 2/3 shift. TV cable and carb. linkage geometry are okay...
If that doesn't change anything, I'll have to take the transmission out anyway. Does anyone have any comments on why installing the stock number of brand new Red Alto clutches gave me clutch clearances that are so far from what is acceptable and does anyone have the range that is?
By the way, I used larger .363”OD reverse boost and .471 tv boost valves.
Last edited by tcolt; June 8th, 2016 at 11:25 AM.
June 8th, 2016, 12:27 AM
#16
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Mac. I was getting 70psi at idle (about 600 rpm) in all gears, higher in 1 and 2, but only until the transmission heated up, then those dropped to about 40psi at idle, 180psi at 1500. Now, the pressure in all gears is about 55psi and is doesn't even increase with engine rpm, as it used to (with or without the TV cable connected). That's why I had asked whether the governor has anything to do with the pressure increase...
I wouldn't say my shifts are all stacked up, but at very light throttle they do happen at 10, 20 and 30 mph which I thought could be normal. If I accelerate harder, they happen later, but I rarely did that because I didn't want to push that soft 2/3 shift too hard. When I shifted manually, I could accelerate fairly hard without any slipping and at higher rpm and with nice firm shifts and all that was at only 70psi during my 800 miles test drive.
I wouldn't say my shifts are all stacked up, but at very light throttle they do happen at 10, 20 and 30 mph which I thought could be normal. If I accelerate harder, they happen later, but I rarely did that because I didn't want to push that soft 2/3 shift too hard. When I shifted manually, I could accelerate fairly hard without any slipping and at higher rpm and with nice firm shifts and all that was at only 70psi during my 800 miles test drive.
Last edited by tcolt; June 8th, 2016 at 11:29 AM.
June 8th, 2016, 05:45 AM
#17
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that 692 servo should be good. That one came in the mcss cz, 442/ hurstolds kz, and the 84-85 bq turbo Buick. I would go to a .500 boost valve but the .471 is a pretty large one
if it has good pressure when cold and drops off when hot I would have to think there is wear in the pump and as it expands the clearances grow and it just wont make good pressure.
June 8th, 2016, 06:12 AM
#18
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These trans are critical on clearance for firm shifts. Try a .500" boost valve as said, I needed a .555" valve to get my pressures better than 185 in drive/od. My trans is slightly soft shifting under light throttle but comes alive when I hit the gas hard along with tire smoke
.
.
June 8th, 2016, 11:34 AM
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Thanks a lot guys. I'm pulling out the pressure regulator valve today. Hopefully, I'll find my (main) mistake right there. Rich, thanks for the picture. I have a sketch from the B & M kit instructions which is similar, except it labels your boost valve and sleeve as the reverse boost valve and the one next to it is the TV boost valve and sleeve (together)...
June 8th, 2016, 02:48 PM
#20
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I think I took a big step forward today. I took a closer look at the retaining circlip for the pressure regulator valve in the pump and it had popped out of the grove and got caught on the transmission case about 1/8" further out. I fixed that, put the pan back on and tested it and now the pressures are back to where they were when I first installed the transmission, maybe higher since I also tightened up the TV cable a bit. I won't be able to do a test drive until tomorrow, but I am hopeful that this might be the answer.
The B & M instructions specifically give this warning and they list the pressure regulator as one of the causes for a soft 2/3 shift, which is how my problem could be described: "Important: Make sure the retaining ring is firmly seated in its groove when assembled.
CAUTION: The pressure regulator boost valve train MUST be installed in the proper order with the sleeves and valves oriented as shown. There are several ways the sleeves and valves can be installed, however, only the orientation shown will work properly. (I'm pretty sure I was careful here and I couldn't get the end plug out to check the order, with the pump installed in the transmission case.) Improper installation will cause low line pressure, resulting in slipping clutches and burnt friction elements."
As for the excessive clutch clearances, I spoke to an expert at Alto today and asked him if the Alto Red clutches had the same dimensions as the factory parts and he said that they are direct replacements and that they should therefore have no more clearance than the factory settings. In other words, if I pulled out 6 frictions and 7 steels and a pressure plate, I should put in 6 frictions and 7 steels and a pressure plate. He did say I should always check the clearance and that these transmission cases have tolerances (of course, but that much!?), but I still can't quite figure out why I would have vastly greater clearances than the factory settings. If the case had more clearance than another, the factory would have already put in a thicker pressure plate or other shim to make up for it, right? If anything, fresh clutches should give me tighter clearances than I had, all other things being equal. That said, I took another look and, as Rich said, the clutches near the front of the transmission that are visible from the pan are for OD. To my mind, I can't even see the clutches inside the direct drum with the transmission installed, so for all I know the clearances may be fine. I do know that the reverse clutches are pretty loose, but since I don't have any problems in that area, I'm not going to worry about it until I have other clues that tell me that the transmission has to come out. Does anybody have any more thoughts on this?...
Thanks!
The B & M instructions specifically give this warning and they list the pressure regulator as one of the causes for a soft 2/3 shift, which is how my problem could be described: "Important: Make sure the retaining ring is firmly seated in its groove when assembled.
CAUTION: The pressure regulator boost valve train MUST be installed in the proper order with the sleeves and valves oriented as shown. There are several ways the sleeves and valves can be installed, however, only the orientation shown will work properly. (I'm pretty sure I was careful here and I couldn't get the end plug out to check the order, with the pump installed in the transmission case.) Improper installation will cause low line pressure, resulting in slipping clutches and burnt friction elements."
As for the excessive clutch clearances, I spoke to an expert at Alto today and asked him if the Alto Red clutches had the same dimensions as the factory parts and he said that they are direct replacements and that they should therefore have no more clearance than the factory settings. In other words, if I pulled out 6 frictions and 7 steels and a pressure plate, I should put in 6 frictions and 7 steels and a pressure plate. He did say I should always check the clearance and that these transmission cases have tolerances (of course, but that much!?), but I still can't quite figure out why I would have vastly greater clearances than the factory settings. If the case had more clearance than another, the factory would have already put in a thicker pressure plate or other shim to make up for it, right? If anything, fresh clutches should give me tighter clearances than I had, all other things being equal. That said, I took another look and, as Rich said, the clutches near the front of the transmission that are visible from the pan are for OD. To my mind, I can't even see the clutches inside the direct drum with the transmission installed, so for all I know the clearances may be fine. I do know that the reverse clutches are pretty loose, but since I don't have any problems in that area, I'm not going to worry about it until I have other clues that tell me that the transmission has to come out. Does anybody have any more thoughts on this?...
Thanks!
Last edited by tcolt; June 8th, 2016 at 10:11 PM.
June 8th, 2016, 03:05 PM
#21
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another pic of how those pieces go in. Those direct and forward clutches are up in the drum. You cant see em with them in the trans. That clip for the boost valve has a sharp edge and a rounded edge. Sharp edge should point out, rounded edge toward valve.
downloadfile-6.jpg
downloadfile-6.jpg
Last edited by TexasT; June 8th, 2016 at 03:13 PM. Reason: added
June 8th, 2016, 10:29 PM
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I did drill the relief bores in the pump and I installed a seal retainer ring too. I didn't grind off that land on the pressure regulator valve, since I figured I'm going more for reliability and strength than maximum clamping force. Also, it didn't say what that modification was for...
June 8th, 2016, 10:32 PM
#25
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I absolutely loved what I saw and experienced that day. I had the tunnel off, so I was able to feel its temp, and it was barely warm when I got home, with its 22-2400 stall. I had 3 foot cooling lines on it, but just loop connected with a trans hose. My cooler was sitting in my garage waiting to be mounted.
I will put a pressure gauge on it and test before moving it again, and then do some pressure test on take offs. I have a stock pan 1 quart over full and a 700 filter. Like I said the shifts were happening about the right speed and were lightning fast, but I couldn't physically detect them except by the engine speeds. No slip or flare detected. Very different from a 400 and a very pleasant surprise. All that, and a 2.74 first and an overdrive, yea buddy. So carry on I am all ears, and enjoying learning anything new.
June 9th, 2016, 05:33 AM
#27
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Yes, great discussion and thanks for the pictures Rich. Unfortunately, I never saw your installation thread Rich, but I did find a few pictures from Jakeshoe's thread on the Turbobuick site, since I was working without a manual, which I probably wouldn't recommend to others wanting to rebuild their first 200-4R.
I did drill the relief bores in the pump and I installed a seal retainer ring too. I didn't grind off that land on the pressure regulator valve, since I figured I'm going more for reliability and strength than maximum clamping force. Also, it didn't say what that modification was for...
I did drill the relief bores in the pump and I installed a seal retainer ring too. I didn't grind off that land on the pressure regulator valve, since I figured I'm going more for reliability and strength than maximum clamping force. Also, it didn't say what that modification was for...
http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=3729.0
my assembly thread.
I didn't grind on that piece either. I guess it is to allow more fluid past.
there is a good thread on the reel old power site by Dr Dan and one with lots of pix at a site called grumpys performance that a guy in Oklahoma put in a t bucket.
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com...-project.7230/
you have to join the site to see the pix, but I think it is worth it. His had some serious carnage. I found it quite informative.
Also this one on gnttype.org by Jake. He is a great guy. I went with one of my Buick friends to pick up his trans there and got a tour of his shop.
http://www.gnttype.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9724
This makes note of a mod called "Dual Feeding" the directs. Once you get to the 500 hp level and are launching hard with sticky tires, this mod and a billet shaft forward drum should be a serious consideration. If we are interested I can post links to that but didn't want to get this thread too far off topic.
Last edited by TexasT; June 9th, 2016 at 07:22 AM.
June 9th, 2016, 09:39 AM
#28
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A soft shift means good timing going from one gear to another with the rpms really changing other than the way they are changing, and no perceived shock to the drivetrain or vehicle. I can hear my shifts at part throttle, but not feel any change of speed (smooth progression) or shock (Bang) from the change. And I noticed they seem incredibly fast, by the sound of the shifts. This is all happening at incredibly light throttle, in drive or overdrive where the pressure is, and is suppose to be lower, as noted in the pressures posted for idle or 1,200 rpms for each gear.
I asked the guy who built mine before I ever bought if the shifts had to be hard just driving around and he said no. And said you don't want the trans pounding on itself normally when it is not needed. I have a ford overdrive that shifts the same way. Fast, but soft with no noticeable slip/rpm flare or excessive pressure past whats needed.
At idle in drive or overdrive you see a lower pressure, and just touching the throttle a small amount should make it instantly come up some on the pressure. Any lag and something is wrong and might burn one up. Leave the cable off or not adjusted right and they can burn up, in only a block or two from the lack of the correct increased pressure. This why a pressure gauge is very important.
June 9th, 2016, 11:07 AM
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Thanks a lot. I wasn't expecting that answer. In my mind a soft shift is exactly what I want then. Maybe for a full on race car a soft shift is not what is wanted. I have, what I would describe as a flare or lazy shift from 2 to 3 and now I'm a little nervous what I actually fixed and why the B & M instructions said a faulty pressure regulator is a possible cause of a soft shift as if it was a problem. I hope my test drive later today will tell more...
June 9th, 2016, 02:58 PM
#30
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Thanks a lot. I wasn't expecting that answer. In my mind a soft shift is exactly what I want then. Maybe for a full on race car a soft shift is not what is wanted. I have, what I would describe as a flare or lazy shift from 2 to 3 and now I'm a little nervous what I actually fixed and why the B & M instructions said a faulty pressure regulator is a possible cause of a soft shift as if it was a problem. I hope my test drive later today will tell more...
June 9th, 2016, 06:20 PM
#31
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Success! I think.... Pressures are now as high as they've ever been and the 2/3 shift is no longer a flare shift, but just as gradual and soft as the 1/2 and 3/4 shifts and the way I like it.
The pressures are not crazy high compared to some I've seen mentioned. The highest I see is in 1st and 2nd. At idle it's about 90psi at idle, but jumps straight up to 190 just off idle. The highest it goes after that is only 200psi. In 3rd and 4th it's between 70 and 100 psi depending on how it idles and then goes up to about 150psi max. Surprisingly reverse, which used to have the highest pressures is only about the same. I am taking the Vista Cruiser on another 400 mile test drive to Sacramento tomorrow morning and hopefully I will have more accurate information when I come back. I'll also compare my temperature readings with those from my first major test drive where I had the leaking pressure regulator valve and see if there is any difference. Thanks guys, so far.
The pressures are not crazy high compared to some I've seen mentioned. The highest I see is in 1st and 2nd. At idle it's about 90psi at idle, but jumps straight up to 190 just off idle. The highest it goes after that is only 200psi. In 3rd and 4th it's between 70 and 100 psi depending on how it idles and then goes up to about 150psi max. Surprisingly reverse, which used to have the highest pressures is only about the same. I am taking the Vista Cruiser on another 400 mile test drive to Sacramento tomorrow morning and hopefully I will have more accurate information when I come back. I'll also compare my temperature readings with those from my first major test drive where I had the leaking pressure regulator valve and see if there is any difference. Thanks guys, so far.
June 9th, 2016, 11:23 PM
#32
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Success! I think.... Pressures are now as high as they've ever been and the 2/3 shift is no longer a flare shift, but just as gradual and soft as the 1/2 and 3/4 shifts and the way I like it.
The pressures are not crazy high compared to some I've seen mentioned. The highest I see is in 1st and 2nd. At idle it's about 90psi at idle, but jumps straight up to 190 just off idle. The highest it goes after that is only 200psi. In 3rd and 4th it's between 70 and 100 psi depending on how it idles and then goes up to about 150psi max. Surprisingly reverse, which used to have the highest pressures is only about the same. I am taking the Vista Cruiser on another 400 mile test drive to Sacramento tomorrow morning and hopefully I will have more accurate information when I come back. I'll also compare my temperature readings with those from my first major test drive where I had the leaking pressure regulator valve and see if there is any difference. Thanks guys, so far.
The pressures are not crazy high compared to some I've seen mentioned. The highest I see is in 1st and 2nd. At idle it's about 90psi at idle, but jumps straight up to 190 just off idle. The highest it goes after that is only 200psi. In 3rd and 4th it's between 70 and 100 psi depending on how it idles and then goes up to about 150psi max. Surprisingly reverse, which used to have the highest pressures is only about the same. I am taking the Vista Cruiser on another 400 mile test drive to Sacramento tomorrow morning and hopefully I will have more accurate information when I come back. I'll also compare my temperature readings with those from my first major test drive where I had the leaking pressure regulator valve and see if there is any difference. Thanks guys, so far.
June 10th, 2016, 04:27 AM
#33
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He is using a .471 boost valve. Those should be fine. Glad you got it where you want it. The larger rev/boost valve are why the rev and the 1 and 2 are higher pressure. The design is so if you are backing up a hill or have it in low you have big pressure to prevent slip as these might be situations where you don't use much throttle and the pressure wouldn't be up.
June 10th, 2016, 08:40 PM
#34
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Successful test drive! Thanks for all the help!
Thanks for the comments and the reassurance Rich. I was hoping that a "normal" updated 200-4R wouldn't need to show those extremely high pressures and as I said, so far I have no hint of wear or slipping. To be honest, now that I know my previous low pressure readings weren't just a due to a bad pressure gauge, I don't quite understand why they say you can fry a brand new 200-4R within a few miles if the TV isn't set up right. I had worse than that (I had a leaking pressure regulator) and there was still no real noticeable wear, as far as I (and the fluid analysis) could tell. Maybe they mean, if you do burn-outs and drag runs and something isn't right. I only did one or two kick-downs at higher speed and aborted as soon as I noticed it wasn't engaging right away.
Anyway, the test drive today was very successful, except for two blown tires at 70 and 80mph in the Vista Cruiser on the 5 freeway. Pressures, especially in 1 and 2 really move nicely with throttle action and even in 3 and 4 they ought to provide a good "cushion". All shifts still happen quite early at almost no throttle and with a bit more they go up to 15, 22, 33 mph. I'm guessing a lot of that is due to my OG governor (from a 1985 Delta 88). Many of you guys probably run hotter units. I haven't done medium to full throttle yet. In my mind, even if the transmission is built to handle it, the more power it has to handle during shifts, the quicker it will wear.
To be safe, I will have one more analysis done and also a fluid change. How do you guys do those? Basically, you're only draining half the dirty fluid and adding 6 quarts of new fluid if you drain the pan and filter, right? It would really take a few costly (Dexron VI) fluid changes to get a clean mix. Does cranking the engine over while the pan is off help get some more fluid out of the converter and maybe draining the oil cooler and lines too? I think I'm also going to remove my inline filter which I thought would be a good idea for the break in period. One less source for leaks.
P.S. Firewalker, you're right. The shifts are really almost unnoticeable except for the rpm change. Amazing, but I like it and it feels like the next gear is grabbing just as one lets go, so there is continuous power transmission and little slip. I guess that's the idea? :-)... (I grew up with almost only stick shifts and I rarely drive newer cars, so I'm a bit of a novice with automatics...)
Anyway, the test drive today was very successful, except for two blown tires at 70 and 80mph in the Vista Cruiser on the 5 freeway. Pressures, especially in 1 and 2 really move nicely with throttle action and even in 3 and 4 they ought to provide a good "cushion". All shifts still happen quite early at almost no throttle and with a bit more they go up to 15, 22, 33 mph. I'm guessing a lot of that is due to my OG governor (from a 1985 Delta 88). Many of you guys probably run hotter units. I haven't done medium to full throttle yet. In my mind, even if the transmission is built to handle it, the more power it has to handle during shifts, the quicker it will wear.
To be safe, I will have one more analysis done and also a fluid change. How do you guys do those? Basically, you're only draining half the dirty fluid and adding 6 quarts of new fluid if you drain the pan and filter, right? It would really take a few costly (Dexron VI) fluid changes to get a clean mix. Does cranking the engine over while the pan is off help get some more fluid out of the converter and maybe draining the oil cooler and lines too? I think I'm also going to remove my inline filter which I thought would be a good idea for the break in period. One less source for leaks.
P.S. Firewalker, you're right. The shifts are really almost unnoticeable except for the rpm change. Amazing, but I like it and it feels like the next gear is grabbing just as one lets go, so there is continuous power transmission and little slip. I guess that's the idea? :-)... (I grew up with almost only stick shifts and I rarely drive newer cars, so I'm a bit of a novice with automatics...)
June 11th, 2016, 01:05 PM
#35
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P.S. Firewalker, you're right. The shifts are really almost unnoticeable except for the rpm change. Amazing, but I like it and it feels like the next gear is grabbing just as one lets go, so there is continuous power transmission and little slip. I guess that's the idea? :-)... (I grew up with almost only stick shifts and I rarely drive newer cars, so I'm a bit of a novice with automatics...)
I like easy and fast, when not out to kill something LOL I also don't want to tweek the noses of cops with chirping tires, when I am out just running around or to the store. I don't like any more pressure on the ujoints or rear gears, than is needed either for the situation.
June 13th, 2016, 09:27 AM
#36
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To be safe, I will have one more analysis done and also a fluid change. How do you guys do those? Basically, you're only draining half the dirty fluid and adding 6 quarts of new fluid if you drain the pan and filter, right? It would really take a few costly (Dexron VI) fluid changes to get a clean mix. Does cranking the engine over while the pan is off help get some more fluid out of the converter and maybe draining the oil cooler and lines too? I think I'm also going to remove my inline filter which I thought would be a good idea for the break in period. One less source for leaks.
Don't do that method (running engine with pan off). Fantastically messy plus very good chance of burning clutches due to lack of fluid.
Need two people for my procedure.
I preferred method is get the tranny warm, disconnect the return cooler line and redirect both ends to a bucket. *BRIEFLY* run the engine - to dump a couple of quarts. Refill through dipstick. Repeat until run about 12 qts or the fluid runs clean.
Whether by luck or what, I've seen several different types of trannies will push out old, hot fluid through the cooler before new, cold fluid. This is a poor replacement for the correct method used by a shop with the right equipment. The best way is to push new fluid into the cooler return at the same rate that old fluid is pushed out the cooler feed.
I don't think a full fluid change is necessary after breakin. Tranny fluid has a different problem set than engine oil.
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