Stubborn_51_88

Our "new to us" 51 Super 88 has the standard 303 V8. Back story (as we know it) is that it was a barn find, sat for many years before the guy we bought it from brought it home about a year ago. He redid the brakes, drove it a bit without issue (that we know of). We test drove it with no problems. Very slow crank/starting, but eventually did start. The previous owner had put a new 8 volt battery in, told us he had adjusted the voltage regulator to handle it.

About 2 weeks after we bought it, took it on a fairly short run (about 45 miles). It conked out on the way home, just lost power & coasted to the side of the road. Thought it was because we filled the gas tank (after how long, who knows) that must have stirred up sediment and blocked the fuel system. Got it home, dropped the tank, cleaned & dried it out, blew out the fuel lines, replaced the filter. We also installed an electric fuel pump at that time. It started & ran, but we had the starter & generator tested (both were fine, this guy worked on these when they were still considered "new" - he's in his 80's!). He noted that there was supposed to be a second ground strap (that was missing), so that was installed. Battery also tested fine. Reinstalled all parts, and it started like a champ.

Drove it for approximately 45 minutes, put it away for the night, next morning (after a short ride) we were right back to square 1 - it died without warning. Had to keep jump starting it to get it home. Finally got to a point where it won't start at all, it will crank, but seems like it has no spark. Not sure what to do from here, or where to start looking. Right now it will not start, much less stay running for any length of time.

The generator doesn't seem to be charging the battery as it keeps dying, but both tested out fine.

Suggestions?

Thanks!!

oldcutlass

Charge the battery all the way, should have 2.1ish v/cell with 4 cells should be around 8.5 for full charge. Make sure point gap is .019 or 30* dwell, dwell can be checked while just cranking. While looking down into the carb with the engine off, operate the throttle and make sure there are 2 solid streams of fuel squirting in the carb. If not, find out why there is no fuel in the bowl. If there is fuel, then run a jumper wire from the battery+ post to the coil+ terminal and start the engine with the key. Note, to turn the engine off the key must be turned off and the jumper removed. If the engine starts, put a meter across the battery and see what the charging voltage is, should be around 10/11v.

Tedd Thompson

If it has had the voltage regulator and battery changed to 8 volts the points may have fried without a ballast resistor. There is no need for a resistor with 6 volts only but if it gets jacked up the points may have burnt. I have had bad luck screwing down the adjustment on voltage regulators to get a increase in voltage. I know back in the day this was a common practice but I have trouble with getting the regulator to stabilize. Probably just me and my technique.

When you get it running (battery charged) check at the generator and work your way around and see what voltage you have at each spot,generator, voltage regulator coil starter,and battery. some where you are losing voltage. Also disconnect the hot lead on your battery when you put the car to bed, that is after it has been charged fully and see if it holds a charge over night. Could be a bad battery and jumping all those times (with a 12 volt car) could have fried the points..

Take your time and eliminate one thing at a time. With what has been done to it it could be a combination of things..... Just a few thoughts... Tedd

redoldsman

Old cars can be very frustrating. Mine has come home more than once on a flatbed and I have seen a picture of Tedd's on a flatbed. I went on a tour two weekends ago that ended about 80 miles from home. After we arrived my 54 developed a miss. Somehow we made it home with the miss. It turned out to be an ignition problem and I had managed to fix it on Monday. When a car has sat for many years as your has, it takes a while to get all the bugs out. Very likely the fuel line may be rusted and as you mentioned the tank could have rust in it. Old fuel pumps don't like gas with ethanol in it but you have addressed that with an electric fuel pump which is what I have on my 54. Did you take the tank to a radiator shop and have it boiled out and sealed. If not you should. The longer you own your car the better you will get to know it. You will know when it gets a little skip in it or some unusual noise. When I was on the recent tour I had lots of people compliment my car. That makes up for the frustration of the problem I had. Look at the picture of Tedd's car above and he would probably tell you that makes up for any of his frustration. I tell people the restoration on my car was finished several years ago. It is now in the perpetual maintenance stage. Old cars only require three things, money, time and patience. Good luck with your car.

Stubborn_51_88

Thanks guys, adding a meter to my shopping list of things to be picked up today (and hope it comes with easy to understand instructions - I warned you we weren't too mechanically inclined!). I can only hope this car is going to be forgiving as we bumble our way through, figuring it out as we go. Thankfully, neither of us are strangers to the flatbed (although, usually it's been my Trans Am being brought home).

Oh, and as to the gas tank, when we dropped it, it looked like it had already been resealed (we found a date written on it of "5/1989"), so we didn't take it in, just did a few solid pressure washes. Everything came out clean. However, there was quite a bit of gunk in the fuel line. Once that was cleaned out, with the electronic fuel pump added, it didn't seem to have any problems getting fuel and we can see fuel getting pumped into the carb. Will check it again.

And yes, not long after we brought it home, Dale brought the Olds along to a small local (about 125 car) show that I took the Cadillac to - parking the two next to each other, guess who drew more people - I think the Caddy came home with a complex...

yellowone

I had a similar problem with an older vehicle a few years back, and it ended up being the coil. Seems it would get hot after driving awhile then later start and run fine for awhile again. Guess the coil had a flaw to where it got hot and internally separated contact to build the energy to send the spark. Just a thought, hope you get it worked out.

Tedd Thompson

My car has come home or to a shop on a flatbed at least three times, once a 1000 miles from home but I would and will do it again. Just wait till you go to the grocery store and it takes 30 minutes to get out of the parking lot. I get more attention there than at a show.... Lost in the fifties.... Tedd

Stubborn_51_88

Another good possibility to check. Thanks!

Stubborn_51_88

Yeah, Tedd, know that feeling - the "45 mile trip" that would usually take just under an hour ended up taking almost 3... And just this weekend, it took us over an hour to make it home, from less than 10 miles away. Gotta love these old cars!

redoldsman

I have often said there is a romance with these old cars. They steer slow, brake slow and are slower than new cars. However they are all metal with no plastic and they have tons of chrome. They sound different and smell different. You drive these old cars because they require it. No rack and pinion steering or 4 wheel anti-lock disk brakes. You realize why they have big steering wheels. My brother in law has asked my once why I didn't sell my Olds and buy a late model Corvette. I told him "you just don't understand, anybody can buy a Corvette but I have never seen another 54 Super 88 convertible".

Tedd Thompson

I always thought of it in maritime expressions, terns like a boat, stops like a boat, rides like a boat,as big as a boat. and I know what you mean about not seeing another at a show in 15 years of showing my car I've only seen two others and that was at the Nationals. Few have survived...... Tedd

Stubborn_51_88

And here's the update (that maybe some have been waiting for... LOL) - we have changed/replaced plugs, wires, cap & rotor, condenser, voltage regulator, coil, and had the carb rebuilt. We also installed a fuel regulator & gauge, set to 4 - 4.5 lbs (along with an electronic fuel pump). The engine started & idled beautifully, but there was an issue with acceleration - it seems to be getting too much air. Engine died after about 15 minutes or so of idling, but soft backfiring was noted the entire time. It seems that when you push on the accelerator, it gets "too much" air and dies.

Now the problem is that it won't restart, it acts like it has lost spark again. Don't know where to go from here. Thoughts?

redoldsman

I would start by checking the points and condenser. Maybe the points weren't tightened down and are now closed all the time. The only was to check the condenser is to try another one. The Chinese ones will crap out on you and leave you stranded. If you are keeping the points I would go to ebay and try and find some of the old original Delco Remy points in the orange and silver foil box and a condenser. These are the original made in the USA stuff. Double check you connections on the coil also. Good luck.

oldcutlass

See if you have voltage at the coil+ terminal with the key on. If you have voltage pull the center wire from the distributor, hold it near the metal of the engine block, 1/8 to a 1/4 inch, take a jumper wire from ground and momentarily touch it to the coil- terminal. You should see a spark from the wire that went to the center of the distributor cap.

Charlie Jones

You mentioned an 8 volt battery .
That may be what is causing your ignition problems . Burning points , ignition coil problems , etc .
My advice ; Get rid of that 8 volt battery . 8 volt batteries belong in Ford tractors , NOT 6 volt cars .
Get a new 6 volt battery , make sure you have thick (2/0 guage) battery cables
Get a voltage regulator specifically made for a '51 Olds .
Replace the burned points and coil as needed .

Stubborn_51_88

Thanks guys - I appreciate the input, will be giving these recommendations a try (as soon as the weather clears, been living under rain clouds lately, and we're having to work on this outside...)

Stubborn_51_88

Hey, in another directions (somewhat), about the carburetor - just had it rebuilt by an old Olds pro (been working on them for over 60 years). It's an old Carter 2 barrel. It idles great, but when you give it gas, it sounds like it's sucking in too much air and dies. Any suggestions in that direction? The guy that rebuilt it said that there's a small leather gasket inside the carburetor that has a very small tear, but he thinks it should be fine. When it comes to carburetors, we're totally in the dark. Thoughts?

oldcutlass

Carbs use vacuum to draw fuel through the jets and do make a lot of noise. The leather gasket you speak of wasn't the accelerator pump was it? Timing not advanced enough can cause stumbles and the engine to die.

Charlie Jones

[QUOTE=Stubborn_51_88;1197473} The guy that rebuilt it said that there's a small leather gasket inside the carburetor that has a very small tear, but he thinks it should be fine[/QUOTE]
``
That's the accelerator pump . And a tear in it is NOT fine . Find yourself another " guy " .

redoldsman

Your problem could be a leak at the base of the carb. When you get the car running again, squirt some starting fluid around the base of the carb. if you hear the engine idle change for a moment, you have a leak. It could be a warped manifold or carb base or just a base gasket. Then again, your problem may be something else. It would be good if you had a vacuum gage to hookup and see what kind of vacuum you are pulling.

Tedd Thompson

Two things point towards the accelerator pump being bad one is the tear no matter how small will cause a problem lean issue on acceleration The second is the slight backfire you mentioned. That also is a sigh of a lean condition caused by the engine not getting the right fuel mixture during acceleration. That leather cup is is a sigh that it could be very old.. They haven't made those for about 40 years...... Luck in your quest for the best 51 on Classic Oldsmobile. The good stuff will come soon... Tedd

aljmann

Hello Stubborn,
I have read your posts as I have the same car. You can see a bit of my odyssey in my posts. I wonder if you are still stubbornly working at your Olds? I had the same dying problem even with a carb rebuild. It SEEMS to be fixed by a new Edelbrock carb but I am only two days in, and have some questions of my own posted elsewhere.................

redoldsman

How did you get the transmission linkage to work on the Edelbrock carb? That is usually a big problem.

Stubborn_51_88

Just a quick update, and to answer Aljmann's post - yes, we had replaced the carburetor. As with everything else, it "seemed" to resolve the problem... momentarily. As I recall, it only lasted a few days before the same problems recurred. At the end of January, frustrated with Michigan weather and not having a good (read warm!) place to work on it, we took it to a local repair shop that has worked on older cars with 6 volt systems.

It's been there for almost 2 months as they have gone through the electrical system. The battery was replaced, along with the battery cables, as well as a couple new ground straps and they were beyond hopeful that whatever the problem was seemed to be fixed since it started, idled, and drove like a dream.

Just (and I mean "JUST") before we were to pick it up, we asked them to also do an oil change. They moved it into their oil change bay, did the oil change, and (wait for it - - - ) when they tried to start it to back it out so we could come get it, it refused to start. Again. Back to square one. <sigh> We haven't given up, but at this point, it's beyond frustrating.

Killian_Mörder

If you mean that it didn't start because the battery was dead, there could be a short circuit or false connections to a load somewhere, if the new battery was of quality which isn't always the case.
Regarding the accelerator pump on this series Rochester, haven't they updated the material from leather to neoprene yet?

Stubborn_51_88

We didn't get much detail, other than "it wouldn't start". The new battery was holding a charge beautifully (according to them). Trying to chase down that elusive short circuit and/or false connection is what has been driving everyone crazy!

classicmuscle442

Think this was asked but not answered, does carb spray fuel when it will not start? Has the fuel pump been checked, seems the early cars had a sentiment bowl.

Stubborn_51_88

Hi Chris,

Again, back to part of the frustration - sometimes carb spray works, sometimes not. The fuel pump was replaced. It really seems to be more of an electrical gremlin on the loose!

Tedd Thompson

The sometime spraying of fuel still points to the accelerator pump issue. It should squirt everytime. This probably isn't your stalling or not starting issue though.
When you say would not start, did it turn over and not start or did not turn over and engage the starter. This would help a lot in diagnosis.I know this is frustrating but it's probably something very simple and everyone is looking over it. Keep us informed on your progress or lack of it, intermittent problems are the hardest to diagnose especially from affair..... Lost in the fifties... Tedd

Stubborn_51_88

Tedd, we put an electronic fuel pump on it, and it works great, fuel injecting every time we turn it on. And the starting issue is "sometimes it will, sometimes it won't". "Sometimes" the starter would try to turn over, other times not. "Sometimes" the engine would engage, "sometimes" not. If it did engage and actually start (and run), it sometimes didn't run for long, other times would sit there and purr like a kitten, then die when you tried to do anything other than let it sit there, like put it in gear, press on the gas (or brake pedal), turn on an accessory (or even just a blinker). And I totally agree, it's something absolutely simple, just none of us have found it yet! I'm still betting on a wire being frayed, or insulation surrounding a wire that's cracked/damaged and creating a short, but aside from rewiring the entire vehicle... any suggestions on how to test each and every wire to find out which one "could" be bad?

Charlie Jones

Do you have a 1951 Oldsmobile Shop Manual ?
If not , I would recommend buying one . Along with very specific service information , they also contain a wiring diagram .
This is essential to tracing down electrical " gremlins " .

If you take your car to a shop , offer it to the mechanic to use .
Oldsmobile Service Manuals are available on E-Bay ;
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...963+oldsmobile

Stubborn_51_88

Charlie, we were 2 jumps ahead of that. Had the shop manual, and when the mechanic asked if we had one (said his subscription-based supplier kept sending him the wrong wiring diagrams), I happily supplied ours for him to use. But FWIW, I'm not sure he's actually been using it!

Dad-Par

Hello Stubborn_51_88
Several Good points made by yellowone and Charlie Jones. Replacng that 8volt with a Good 6 volt battery is spot on along with (2/0) battery cables. Have a 39 Ford, part of the same 6volt/positive ground world,. Been thru same thing. 6 volt systems actually pull more ampere than 12volt. so a heavy batt cable is essential. (heavier than what you would use on a matching 12v system) 6 volt starters do not turn over as fast a 12v. Smaller gauge wires will cause it to turn over even slower and can overheat..
If you've had an 8 volt batt, do not overlook how it affects your Voltage Regulator. Found on a lot of these old Fords, (and three terminal on regulator are the same) regulators can be affected (tempermental) by anything other than what it SHOULD be recieving in order to 'regulate' what its putting out. At medium idle, all accesssories off, Voltage at the Battery (Terminals) should be 8-8.5 volts, but if you have a bad regulator, numerous false or difficult to interpret signals can be sent.
As far as coils go, My dad (WWII generation) and a Good mechanic, knew these 30' 40' 50s cars well, but in general he always said 'a bad coil will start to warn you,' meaning it will start fine,you shut if off, it won't start. Winding has a break in it and as it heats up, it seperates. .BUT, he always made the exception... "If its 10 above out side and your traveling 40 mph, it just may keep that coil cool enough not to act up."
If you change the points I assume you also change the condensor.. Had a later gen Ford which the wire on the condensor wasn't routed correctly (my learning curve) and distributor shaft just under rotor as it rotated rubbed the insulation off and stopped me dead on the road. Took forever to find it.
My feeling is, other than the coil, your problem is in a primary (6v) circuit, between ignition switch, under the dash, into engine compartment. Make sure wiring terminals to regulator is clean, no frays, and terminals are not inavertenty making any kind of contact w/metal mounting surface.
Hope this helps.
John

Charlie Jones

Re-wiring the vehicle may not be a bad idea at all .
The wires in these cars were coated with rubber , then cotton , and then shellac . This type wiring worked good for perhaps 10 or 15 years .
However , almost 70 years on the rubber coating hardens to rock . The cotton and shellac deteriorate also .
Personally , I think that the several hundred dollars spent on a new wiring harness . Is well worth the piece of mind that you car won't suddenly catch fire from an electrical short .
New wiring harnesses are available from Rhode Island Wiring Service ;
http://www.riwire.com/

Dad-Par

Charlie, could not agree more! !
John

Stubborn_51_88

Guys, we completely agree with replacing the wiring - that section coming from the ignition switch through the firewall into the engine compartment is probably going to be our culprit, as everything else has been replaced. Keep the suggestions coming, and I'll keep you posted. Now that warmer weather is coming (I'm really, really hoping) we should be able to get the old girl home and delve further into it.

Killian_Mörder

Looking down into the carburetor, one can see if it's squirting or not. Even a weak squirt caused by torn leather can also be determined I used to make my own harnesses, using canibalized harnesses from other vehicles. Best results are had, through avoiding cheap crimp-on ends. Stick with copper, when possible. Heatshrink tubing is also a must. If you get into a situation where the used wire's color doesen't match the old one, simply keep track of it and either number tag the ends or keep a diagram chart.
If you're considering converting over to 12 volts, that'll cut your harness weight in half, since higher voltage can accomodate thinner guage wire. Using a 12-volt generator, your vehicle will still look original, since any visual difference isn't immediately detected. If looks don't matter, an alternator is the best way to go, when replacing the generator. The conversion's easy. All you'd have to do is to replace the bulbs and cigarette lighter element and then add a ballast resistor for the ignition and one for the heater blower, if a 12-volt unit can't be found. The same goes with all other possible electrical options. The starter can stay. It'll only spin faster, without getting damaged

Stubborn_51_88

Killian, the only thing we can consistently count on right now is that fuel is being pumped; there's no question about that! We're trying to avoid having to convert it over, but in the end, we may have to cave in and have that done if only to ensure that it will start and run consistently. Neither of us are capable of doing the rewiring ourselves.

Killian_Mörder

Well, if the money wasn't tight, then the new harness would be the best second option. I'm no longer in the Metro Detroit area. Otherwise, I could have fun building the harness for way less what that company's asking.
As previously mentioned, the insulation on those vintage wires isn't capable of withstanding biological aging. It would be a different story, if the vehicle had been stored for its entire history. Not attending to the wiring, in this case, would be a constant monkey hanging on your back, unfortunately. An eventual confrontation due to this could end up more annoying than taking preventative measures

Tedd Thompson

I just made a similar post on a similar car about checking for defective coil and ignition switch with a jumper wire,you might take a look at that post and see if it gives you any ideas.....Tedd.....https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...ifting-143614/