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I just came across this thread and since the original post was asking for information on these documents, I though I'd share some information about them. The documents shown are the actual Lansing facility build sheets. The build sheets at the Lansing facility did not use the same format as all the other assembly plants used. That is why nobody has ever found a "typical looking" build sheet in any Lansing car. There is no such thing. The smaller red and white card is the Lansing assembly plant "build order" form, which is made from the received "dealers order" form. It lists all the options that are to be included on this particular cars build. The production codes A and B sheets are then made from this "build order" and then become the actual Line "Build Sheets" that accompanied the car down the assembly line. That is why they list everything by two digit codes, as all the line workers would only pick parts off shelves by the codes on them. It is extremely rare to find the "build order" still with the car after the production order sheets are made. These sheets are far superior documentation of any car being an actual W-30, and because they were usually thrown away as useless scrap at the end of the line, often the broadcast card is the last remaining shred of hope for any documentation to be found at all. The only reason the broadcast card is found most often is because it was put in the car at the Fisher Body plant prior to the car going to the Lansing final assembly line. I will also add that 1970 was the last year for this Production Code A and B sheet format, as the format was changed again for the 1971 line. In 71 no longer did they use an A and B sheet but instead switched to Production Code 1, 2, and 3 sheet format. It still has all the same information but its printed in again, a different format. So before someone tells me I don't know jack about what I'm talking about, I will say that I have been studying build sheets from all the Oldsmobile A-body facilities since the early 1980's. I have spoken to people who have worked in the Lansing facility in the scheduling and production departments of the time, and have clarified their procedures and documents. Over the years I have accumulated a vast amount of build sheets, from all facilities, and have several examples of these rare documents shown in this post. Occasionally, I am called upon to authenticate a build sheet and have found some to have been forged by someone not as familiar with them. I hope this helps with your original question.
I just came across this thread and since the original post was asking for information on these documents, I though I'd share some information about them. The documents shown are the actual Lansing facility build sheets. The build sheets at the Lansing facility did not use the same format as all the other assembly plants used. That is why nobody has ever found a "typical looking" build sheet in any Lansing car. There is no such thing. The smaller red and white card is the Lansing assembly plant "build order" form, which is made from the received "dealers order" form. It lists all the options that are to be included on this particular cars build. The production codes A and B sheets are then made from this "build order" and then become the actual Line "Build Sheets" that accompanied the car down the assembly line. That is why they list everything by two digit codes, as all the line workers would only pick parts off shelves by the codes on them. It is extremely rare to find the "build order" still with the car after the production order sheets are made. These sheets are far superior documentation of any car being an actual W-30, and because they were usually thrown away as useless scrap at the end of the line, often the broadcast card is the last remaining shred of hope for any documentation to be found at all. The only reason the broadcast card is found most often is because it was put in the car at the Fisher Body plant prior to the car going to the Lansing final assembly line. I will also add that 1970 was the last year for this Production Code A and B sheet format, as the format was changed again for the 1971 line. In 71 no longer did they use an A and B sheet but instead switched to Production Code 1, 2, and 3 sheet format. It still has all the same information but its printed in again, a different format. So before someone tells me I don't know jack about what I'm talking about, I will say that I have been studying build sheets from all the Oldsmobile A-body facilities since the early 1980's. I have spoken to people who have worked in the Lansing facility in the scheduling and production departments of the time, and have clarified their procedures and documents. Over the years I have accumulated a vast amount of build sheets, from all facilities, and have several examples of these rare documents shown in this post. Occasionally, I am called upon to authenticate a build sheet and have found some to have been forged by someone not as familiar with them. I hope this helps with your original question.
Fantastic information..thats the info we all needed. Thank you
I have been asked through Private messaging to provide slightly more clarification to the order of the documents shown and discussed above. I think the best way to simply describe them would be to create a short story called, "The Paper Trail" and follow it from start to finish. I will try to use the documents of this post but will include some of my own for clarity or to fill in any gaps. I hope that I cam make a short description of each document as it is posted to have a sort of chronological order to it. If it gets messed up, Oops, Sorry.
I'll start with this.
This is nothing more than the practice scratch pad used by a salesman trying to crunch numbers with a customer at his desk in the showroom to see what kind of a deal they can make and what it will cost for the buyer.
After a deal is agreed upon, the salesman then gets this official Sales Order Contract/Receipt and fills it out for both parties to sign, a deposit is taken, and it becomes the contract between the dealership and customer for the order and sale.
After the salesman takes your money, he takes that form and gives it to that little old lady sitting in the back cubicle with the switchboard in front of her. She in turn takes the salesman's order and transfers it to the official wholesale dealers order form which follows. This is the form that gets sent to the Data processing division of Oldsmobile. (Example below is for the Supreme Models. I am using it to show how it is filled out and there is no other one in this thread.)
Once the corporate office receives this order, they create the following plant Build Order form which schedules the date of the build, the line it will be built on, and the sequence number, (ie; VIN number). This build order lists all the different "Optional Equipment" to be included on the specific build. It does not list all the standard features or individual parts of the model being built.
The information from the above form is used to develop two separate things simultaneously, which will have to be addressed separately. They are the ordering of the body from the Fisher Body Plant and the development of the Line Build Sheets to be used on the final assembly line. The first thing I'll touch on is the Body Broadcast card. The information from the previous form is transferred to the Fisher body plant to order the body for this particular build. The Fisher Body Plant assigns its own numbering system of the body it creates and it does not tie into the cars VIN number. What the Fisher plant needs to know is what specific options are to be included in the construction of the body that will need to be specific to this body. Obviously they need to know the paint color choice and whether or not a vinyl top is to be installed, but the Fisher Broadcast cards will always include specific options that cause the body to be constructed differently, as in A/C which takes a different fire wall, or seat selection for floor brackets, or power windows or rear speaker that include the wiring within the body, or in the case of the beloved W-Cars, reduced body sound deadener. If it wasn't for that, there would be no mention of any W reference on any broadcast card at all. There is no other difference in the body. The fenders are pierced for emblems and added later on the final assembly line. With that being said, when Fisher is nearing completion of the body, they typically just throw the card on the floor (or one from another car) and throw the carpet over it and call it a day. On to the broadcast card.
For reference, I'll include a picture of the Fisher Bodies finished and ready to ship to the Lansing Facility for final assembly. You will note, there is no frame, drivetrain or front end but the interior is complete sans the dashboard.
The second thing that happens from the master order form is the development of the assembly line build sheets. In 1970 this is a two part form comprised of Production Code A and Production Code B sheets. On these sheets you will find the individual codes for each individual part to be included on this particular build. Here is where the line workers get their information on which parts to pick to go on this car. Here you will find the codes for the engine, trans, rear axle, radiator, wiring harnesses, pulleys, control arms etc...You will notice it gives the paint colors for stripes and the particular piercing of the front fenders for the emblems to be be used on that particular model. I had seen a picture of the Lansing assembly line with these sheets taped to the windshield of the car as it progresses down the line but I can't find it. Because they were taped to the windshield, it made it easy for them to be discarded at the end of the line and that's why they are so seldom found. Because only the B Sheet was shown in the above documents, I'll use my own A and B sheets from my data that both go to a single Cutlass SX.
I'll end off by stating that starting in 1971, these format for these build sheets were changed slightly to a three sheet form rather that two sheets. All the information is still present but the format was changed to now have Production Codes 1,2 and 3 Sheets. Here is an example of what they look like in 1971.
Again, all extremely rare to find but by far, the most superior documentation any car could possibly have. I hope I didn't spell too many things wrong and this helps clarify some of the information that's been out there for years. Complaints need to buy me a beer first before I'll entertain you.
PS. I've never seen one of those transit cards before and purposely omitted saying anything about it because I don't know where that fits in. It is very cool though.
EDIT: I forgot to include this when I made my post last night. I was approached one time and asked to decipher what the codes represent on the top of this Soft Trim Broadcast sheet. It was the first time I've ever seen one and I'm not sure who makes it out but it is clear what its purpose is. This sheet is a sub-form that describes the upholstery requirements necessary to be included in the interior of the body. You will note that the options listed are pertinent to the specific parts needed to construct the body's interior. An example would be power windows or remote mirror would require specific holes cut into the door panel, Trans indication is to determine if the carpet needs to be trimmed for a shifter. If the car was to have a console, it would be listed on here as D-55. What was asked of me, was to decipher the codes on the top of the sheet. To do this, I simply looked at the box numbers and cross referenced them to the boxes on any build sheet typically used in the other plants. Although the format of the forms are different, the coding process is virtually the same across all plants. Here is the Soft Trim Broadcast sheet.
And here is a typical Build sheet from another facility. You can tie the boxes numbered 77, 78, 79 and 83, 84, 85, and 86 from the Soft Trim Broadcast sheet to the same box numbers on a typical build sheet and see that they are for the Front Carpet, Rear Carpet and Head Liner, and Front Seat back, Front Seat bottom, Rear Seat back, and Rear Seat bottom. It's only Rocket Science.
Last edited by asx455; January 29th, 2022 at 12:36 PM.
Alan thanks so much for putting this information together for us. Now this documented trail should suffice to answer many questions that members have, or have had. I'm so glad I approached you to do this, and I am doubly glad you found the time to put it all together even with your busy schedule. Again, thank you for going to this extent, and too for providing some of your own documents as support. A job well done.
Last edited by tnswt; January 29th, 2022 at 06:14 AM.
One more example of paying way the French too much. I get why clueless fools love an Olds. The absolute best 70-72 A body period. Buick 2nd. Chevelle third. Fools are Overpaying. Guess what? You ain't getting that back. It's just a money shuffle game to so many. Care and know anything about the car you are buying? No clue. Just a dollar amount. Kiss us real people right here. 🥶🍻👍
And here is a typical Build sheet from another facility.
Hey, that’s the build sheet from my 1970 Supreme! I thought it looked familiar, so I pulled my file and sure enough, that’s it. Amazingly well preserved for being on top of the gas tank of a south Louisiana car for a decade with all that rain, humidity, and flooded streets that I used to drive through. I found it around 1982 when I dropped the tank to fix the gas gauge that went way past FULL.
Last edited by Fun71; January 29th, 2022 at 02:31 PM.
[QUOTE=Fun71;1401897]Hey, that’s the build sheet from my 1970 Supreme.
Lol, and thank you for having such a nice readable example. I have accumulated many from various sources over the years and mostly forgot where they all came from.
The most accurate way to decode the first white sheet is with a Oldsmobile inspectors guide for that year. Lists all the factory installed options. They have used that sheet for many years. The numbers in the boxes 44-80 coincide with the inspectors guide. In those boxes are the RPO numbers. The number printed in the box equals the total of the options listed in the box. Example, box #45 has a 8 in it that means you got option #8 in that box. If you got more than one option in that box they just add the numbers up and print that number in the box. kind of confusing.
The photo #54 in the gallery of pics is spot on. Numeral 3 stamped block = the third year/1970 of 455 block production for Olds engines (first year being 1968, which would be stamped with the numeral 1). The 322 date stamp shows November production of the engine block, which most people agree is a common production date for W30's. Minus the few missing W30 centric parts, this car presented with loads of nice. Odd to have the clock/tac, yet has the idiot light gauge.
The photo #54 in the gallery of pics is spot on. Numeral 3 stamped block = the third year/1970 of 455 block production for Olds engines (first year being 1968, which would be stamped with the numeral 1). The 322 date stamp shows November production of the engine block, which most people agree is a common production date for W30's. Minus the few missing W30 centric parts, this car presented with loads of nice. Odd to have the clock/tac, yet has the idiot light gauge.
Sorry, but that is incorrect on a couple of levels. First, that number isn't "stamped", it's a raised, cast number. Second, the first calendar year of production of the 455 block was 1967. 322 would refer to the 332nd day of 1969, which would have been Tuesday, Nov 18, 1969. And finally, that large digit isn't directly related to the year of casting, despite what you may read on the interwebs. It's a mold number, and while there may be a casual relationship to the calendar year, it isn't a direct one. I've got too many Olds blocks where that mold number is too far off from the calendar year, based on the model year of the VIN derivative stamp. This page is from the dealer Service Guild Bulletins.
And finally, that large digit isn't directly related to the year of casting, despite what you may read on the interwebs. It's a mold number, and while there may be a casual relationship to the calendar year, it isn't a direct one. I've got too many Olds blocks where that mold number is too far off from the calendar year, based on the model year of the VIN derivative stamp. This page is from the dealer Service Guild Bulletins.
Joe P seems like the day cast number has little to no meaning if the mold number does not represent a year code, and a direct relationship does it? Like Capstone, I've associated the single digit (mold number) as a year code along with the day cast number as shown in your Guild document, 3 = 1969, 4= 1970, etc. I've also seen some of the strange relationships between mold number and calendar year that you address too.
If the 3 (in this case) does not represent 1969, what year is associated with the day cast number of 322?
I attach a picture and caption from the Rocket Report issued by Stephen Minore on my 1970 W30. Minore uses the 4 (from my picture) as the year code.
Granted you (Joe P) and Minore know more about Oldsmobile that most of us every will, so my questions are not argumentative. Perhaps this is another anomaly at the present time, and something that will be understood better as time goes on--or not!
Last edited by tnswt; February 22nd, 2022 at 07:14 AM.
Actually, I did get the raised-molded, obviously not stamped, block numeral off by one year. The first blocks for the Olds 455's produced for 1968 models was indeed in 1967 and those would have received the molded numeral 1. So a 1970 model year car with a 455 engine produced prior to Dec 31, 1969 would have rec a 3 molded numeral on the block.
Joe P seems like the day cast number has little to no meaning if the mold number does not represent a year code, and a direct relationship does it? Like Capstone, I've associated the single digit (mold number) as a year code along with the day cast number as shown in your Guild document, 3 = 1969, 4= 1970, etc. I've also seen some of the strange relationships between mold number and calendar year that you address too.
If the 3 (in this case) does not represent 1969, what year is associated with the day cast number of 322?
I attach a picture and caption from the Rocket Report issued by Stephen Minore on my 1970 W30. Minore uses the 4 (from my picture) as the year code.
Granted you (Joe P) and Minore know more about Oldsmobile that most of us every will, so my questions are not argumentative. Perhaps this is another anomaly at the present time, and something that will be understood better as time goes on--or not!
Well, this is a 350 block with a 1968 VIN derivative. If you believe that the mold number corresponds to the year, this would be Feb 10, 1967. Unlikely.
Here's an E-block 400 with mold number 4. Again, by the "large digit is the year of production" theory, then this block was cast July 18, 1968, which would have been the end of production for the 1968 model year cars.
And finally, I have in my shop a sans-serif "F" 455 block with a 1973 VIN derivative and an "8" for the mold number. Again, by the theory, that would have been cast in calendar year 1974.
....If you believe that the mold number corresponds to the year, this would be Feb 10, 1967. Unlikely.
Hold on to your sombrero, Hoss; I never said I believe the mold number theory
Granted, I posted documentation that is in direct conflict with your position on this matter, but my reason is only to advance the dialogue. I have read your past posts and seen much of your visuals supporting your position on CO. I especially appreciate you reposting your pictures and restating your opinion, which I value.
As mentioned, I don’t have an opinion on this matter as I know so little about it. However, it would be beneficial to me and likely to others too if you better explained:
> This casual verses direct relationship you speak of in post 58;
> I asked this question in post 59 but it did not receive an answer, so here it is again: If the 3 (as in the mold number 3) is not a year code, what year is associated with the day cast number of 322 in the same picture at post 58?
I know we have the VIN derivative number on the block, but I see that as the model year for the engine and not the cast year of the block.
I know we have the VIN derivative number on the block, but I see that as the model year for the engine and not the cast year of the block.
That is correct, but it is all you have to go on. If the engine in question has a 1970 model year VIN derivative (that hasn't been restamped or altered) then 322 is Nov 18, 1969. Let's keep in mind that GM was in the business of selling new cars, not documenting old ones half a century later. All they cared about was current year production. Blocks didn't typically sit around for years before being used, nor did GM care about prior year blocks in a current year. If a 1970 model year car showed up for warranty work, the assumption was that the engine was from that year's production lot. The drivetrain warranty was only 12 months or 12,000 miles, so no one cared about tracking production lot data after that. This was before Demmer.
Joe P is an Oldsmobile treasure trove to us all. His knowledge is off the charts. I asked a couple of guys that have restored too many 442's to count. On all Olds 442's that came with the original motor, this molded numeral was a match as discussed earlier. Could this be wrong, sure. But considering they have never seen an original engine not match this belief would be long odds indeed. Maybe a guy like Mr. Rocket Report can dispel this one.
A casual relationship is better then no relationship.
If I am looking at a supposedly original 70 w-30 with a matching engine VIN derivative and I see an "8" for the mold number that would raise an immediate red flag.
I'd also expect that mold numbers could be assigned a time frame for when they were used. I don't know if this information exists or can be determined.
My 1970 442 with a 23 mar build date has a block casting of 4 and production date of 62.
for whatever that’s worth….
it does tie into the year the Theory if 67 was year 1 for the 455 for the 68 cars….
Joe P is an Oldsmobile treasure trove to us all. His knowledge is off the charts. I asked a couple of guys that have restored too many 442's to count. On all Olds 442's that came with the original motor, this molded numeral was a match as discussed earlier. Could this be wrong, sure. But considering they have never seen an original engine not match this belief would be long odds indeed. Maybe a guy like Mr. Rocket Report can dispel this one.
Based on my first hand experience and discussions with those who keep track of the 1970 W-30 Lansing built cars. The 1,2,3 and 4 do correspond to both the year of production (so 3 and 4 both used in 1970) as well as the mold number. So you are both correct. There has been no established juian raised cast date corellation for a W-30 as all of the blocks were the same within the discussed parameters. The date cast does not identify a W-30. I do not have this same in for for 1971.
Last edited by Stefano; February 24th, 2022 at 10:57 AM.
Based on my first hand experience and discussions with those who keep track of the 1970 W-30 Lansing built cars. The 1,2,3 and 4 do correspond to both the year of production (so 3 and 4 both used in 1970) as well as the mold number. So you are both correct. There has been no established juian raised cast date corellation for a W-30 as all of the blocks were the same within the discussed parameters. The date cast does not identify a W-30. I do not have this same in for for 1971.
Except that the E-block 400 of which I posted above has a "4" that would indicate it was cast a year after production of that motor ended. The 1973 455 block in my shop with an "8" also disproves this construct. You can understand my skepticism. Anecdotal "proof" isn't proof. Without a factory document, you've just got unsubstantiated observations. People swear that deer whistles work because they've never hit a deer.
Except that the E-block 400 of which I posted above has a "4" that would indicate it was cast a year after production of that motor ended. The 1973 455 block in my shop with an "8" also disproves this construct. You can understand my skepticism. Anecdotal "proof" isn't proof. Without a factory document, you've just got unsubstantiated observations. People swear that deer whistles work because they've never hit a deer.
is it possible that the later blocks were replacement engines under warranty? Wasn’t GM required to carry replacements for so many years?
not sure if they would cast another batch if all the stock was used up by warranty claims…just another thing to throw at the wall and see what sticks…hehe
I am in the camp that if that molded numeral is not correct for that given year, it is for one simple reason. The block is not original to the vehicle. I would also agree that a bit of latitude should be considered as Stefano shared (I could see where a 1970 yr as an example could be a 3 or 4 molded numeral).
Last edited by capstoneclub; February 24th, 2022 at 07:39 PM.
is it possible that the later blocks were replacement engines under warranty? Wasn’t GM required to carry replacements for so many years?
not sure if they would cast another batch if all the stock was used up by warranty claims…just another thing to throw at the wall and see what sticks…hehe
Contrary to interwebs myth, there was no legal requirement to carry spares for any length of time. And no, once E-block production stopped, Olds did not cast more blocks. Any spares in the parts network were left over from regular production. The system wasn't set up to cast boutique products like that. Heck, the factory even documented the use of 1968 350 blocks and heads in 1967 330 motors. These 330s used the 350 casting numbers. There were about 750 of these made at the end of the production run. This is completely documented in the service bulletins and the parts book.
I am in the camp that if that molded numeral is not correct for that given year, it is for one simple reason. The block is not original to the vehicle.
So again, how do you explain a mold number that's higher than the number of years that E-block motors were cast? The E-block 400 was cast in only three calendar years, but the block I posted above has a "4".
I would be willing to bet that would equate to a factory replacement block. I'll say again, the "theory" could be wrong, but if I were purchasing a 70-442 today for example and it was built in 1969 or Jan/later in 1970, it would have to have 3 or 4 numeral block for me to believe that the engine is original to the car. Btw, I first discovered this "theory" about 15 yrs ago when I was looking at a 70-442. It had a 6 molded numeral on the block, but had the correct VIN stamped into the block. I had a guy that had restored 100's of 442's over the decades look at the car before I considered moving forward with the purchase. He pointed out that issue and many other 1972 matching type things under the hood and assured me that at some point that car had numerous parts (including the engine) dropped into that 1970 442. I declined the purchase and eventually found something that he could confirm looked correct.
Last edited by capstoneclub; February 25th, 2022 at 12:44 PM.
January 23rd, 2022, 05:06 PM
