GreekDog

If I were you I would park the Cutlass and drive it once every couple weeks to keep her greased up. In this economy your not gonna get 10k for it and your gonna pull your hair out dealing with all the people trying to buy it for 5k. I think that in a matter of months your mind will change about it. Thats how things are for me. Sometimes I think about selling my Cutlass Convertible for a new Camaro but then I take her out for a drive and remember whats so great about her.

o and btw when I drive my 72' down Coast Highway or Downtown San Diego it turns heads like crazy and GIRLS F***ING LOVE IT!

morepwr

Those lincolns like that are awesome in demolition derbies!

rocketraider

And that's why you don't see cars like that anymore, because some yahoo gets his rocks off running them thru derby. Talk about low-brow entertainment...


Finally, somebody kinda sorta gets it. Maybe not foolish, or even unreasonable to expect it to compare with modern iron, but expecting it to damn sure misses the point of owning/driving one. If I want a modern car, I will go buy one.

jpc, quit comparing your Cutlass to your ricerocket and quit worrying about the investment/ROI angle of it. You will then be able to enjoy the Oldsmobile for what it is. If you can't get past those, you'll be better off selling it.

Get over that mindset of having to have it all now. Unless you have a trust fund, THAT is unrealistic in anyone's lifetime. Hit the real world running and you will find that no matter what counselors, recruiters and job placement people tell you, $80k/year right out of college ain't gonna happen. If it does, it's gonna be in an area with an outrageous cost of living which will negate the high salary.

oldcutlass

This is my observation, please do not be offended:

Here's what I think the problem is guys, he is a 21 y/o very much in over his head with a car almost twice his age! It's intimidating! He has limited mechanical skills, and no one to mentor or guide him! He basically has buyers remorse and wonders if he should possibly buy something that needs less work that would take up less of his time!

He does not have the experience or the discipline that we grew up with, to take on this type of challenge. It's understandable to overwhelmed like this!!

He might need someone who lives close, to step up and guide him, if he decides to take this car to the next step!

Aceshigh

I don't know about you, but the last Demolition derby I went to at the Chicago Speedway Route 66
was frikkin PACKED with thousands of spectators and not an open seat in the house. Most of the
Caddy's were whoopin on the other cars tho.

So there are obviously a TON of fans at these and Monster Truck shows that love to see destruction.

442much

Buy what makes you happy. Todays technology will beat yesterdays. A W30 would have trouble beating a 4 cyl today, never mind a 6 cyl and more than likely would loose against an 8.

You have to decide whether you like your car or not. If you don't, sell it. If you like it but wish it were faster, make it. The old car hobby is not about economics, it's a hobby of love. Many of us here have spent more on our cars than what they would bring in a resale. But we also don't care.

I bought my 76 442 in 1979. I was 22. I tested others. It (IMO) looked better, handled better, stopped better had cool gadgets (swivel buckets), 15" wheels, was more modern and it had the 455. Did my 455 go as fast in a straight line as a 70? No. But it was a superior car in every other aspect. The owners of the older cars have tweeked their cars too...better suspension, tires etc. What do people in the car hobby always do? They tinker with their cars. The best 1/4 mile time in my 442 was 13.96 @ 103 mph after tinkering. That includes stock tires, carb and tranny.

At car shows now, I get a lot of attention because people hardly every see one. So I get tons of questions on the car. I bought an Olds because I wanted something different. I like Camaros, Firebirds and Mustangs, but everybody and his brother drove one. I bought Indy 500 tires because everyone was running T/A Radials (and because the Indy Tires tested as the No 1 RL tire in 2008) My car is part of the family now since bringing my three sons home from the hospital. Is it the fastest car in town? No way. But it suits my needs and I love it. To make it faster is only money. Besides, I want a car that I can drive cross country with relative gas economy and comfort.

So, it comes down with what you're happy with. Don't keep the Cutlass if you don't feel a special bond when you get in behind the wheel. Yeah, it sound crazy, but it's true. Even if you make it go faster, if you don't love it now, you'll soon loose the passion you'll find after you build it into a light to light 'stang killer. (Not recommended on the street)

When you build a house, you need a strong foundation first. If the "foundation" for this car is not strong to begin with, you will loose interest fast, no matter what you do to it. Then you will be upset for spending money on it.

In my opinion the Hyundai is a cool car. It reminds me of the concept Oldsmobile Alero that I saw in Lansing in 97. As for the girls, the same applies here as the foundation comment. If the foundation of their affection for you is based on the car you drive, it won't last long. Go for as long as it lasts, but don't expect any keepers. The keeper is the one that really likes you even though you ride a bicycle...and if she's pretty, JACKPOT.

That's my $0.02. The ultimate and correct decision (no matter what you choose) will be the right one for you. Good Luck.

rocketraider

Aces, all that tells me is that Chicago-land has its share of yahoos like everywhere else. It's still low-brow entertainment. Destruction for destruction's sake just never has been my thing.

Did you wear your Gladiator suit when you went? If the chicks who go to DD up there are anything like chicks who go to DD here, bound to think you-da been the sexiest thing there! Odds are at least you had good teeth...

jpc needs to decide what he wants from his Cutlass. That, I think we can all agree on.

Aceshigh

Considering ballet and opera is high brow entertainment, I'll stick to my blue collar entertainment.

I don't mind seeing junkyard cars racing around a track and crashing. It's amusing.
NASCAR puts me to sleep, so that's not my thing.

Are you saying they're all dumb white trash rednecks ?? LOL

442much

I haven't watched NASCAR since they stopped running Oldsmobiles. The last time I heard someone mention Dick Trickle, I thought he was telling us he had the clap.

RAMBOW

I wouldn't even considerit. Your cutlass is way cooler.

jpc647

I've been looking around for a 455, but haven't had much luck. I'm hoping to find one that is ready to drop in, not have to rebuilt it and such. Can you not get all bent out of shape over the Hyundai. "Go buy mods for the Hyundai".. Really? If I wanted to mod that car, it'd be done, I don't need the money from the Cutlass to do that. I have contemplated selling the Cutlass, but it seems it's going to be at a loss, and that's just not something I'm okay with. I'm not trying to argue here, the arguing seems to stem from people not reading posts, assuming one thing and commenting on it, then 2 other people jump on the bandwagon about what one guy said was false. Example:? The post about me being female.


The prices I stated for rebuild are from a local, well known guy who races professionally and subsidies that hobby with rebuilding. There are a couple of companies locally that rebuild motors and transmissions, sure, but none of them seem to do good work. My uncle had a chevy 350 rebuilt at a local shop and after 6 months it started burning oil out of the left bank. That sounds like a place I want to stay away from. Secondly, I had an A4LD transmission for an 87 Turbo Coupe rebuilt at a local shop, they rebuilt it with all the stock parts, not the performance oriented parts that came in the Turbo Coupe application. I sold the car, but I imagine that transmission didn't last long.

Thank you for the brand names of Hotchkiss and Glboal West, I'll look into them.

Have you ever done the prep work on a car and sent it to Maaco to be painted? That's certainly not as easy as one may think. It takes a lot of time, practice, and a garage to do that in.

I understand that the enjoyment comes from driving the car, but it's hard to enjoy a car I'm always worrying about what is wrong with it, or if it's going to break down, etc. You have to understand. For example, I was driving it last summer and the car just shut off. Ended up having it towed back to the house to find the fuse powering the HEI distributor blew. Changed it, and a month later the module in the distributor blew. I replaced that, started a thread here, and checked everything. Everything seems to be in order, but I'm still sort of afraid it'll just die on me again.

Well considering a 1972 Cutlass "S" was not a muscle car, I guess I can't pretend to know what it's like to own a muscle car.

Well that's the problem, my Cutlass doesn't.

I have to disagree here. I am fully capable of tearing the car apart, fixing it, putting it back together. I'm just starting to wonder if this car is actually worth it. I think the fact that's it is a run of the mill car is my problem, it's nothing special.


Thanks for the links. Certainly stuff to check out. Hotchkiss seems to be something many of you recommend.


I agree with everything you said here. That cutlass in the picture, looks to me to be a 442, not a run of the mill car, though. It's beautiful, but I'm a little confused as to what you are telling me?


This is sort of what I have been doing, and from not driving it, seals start to leak, etc, etc. I live in New England so the car sits all winter, nothing I can do about that. Being able to put the top down is a big plus, certainly makes driving an old car that much better.

Where is this coming from that I have limited mechanical skills? I've swapped over a whole drivetrain in a car before, the only hitch was finding the wiring harness.

But you are right, I don't have a "mentor" to help. I don't have anyone local to help me with my Oldsmobile. My father is a Lincoln man, and while most of his knowledge helps, applying that to Oldsmobile's, is sometimes hard.

I do care. And I think that is part of my problem.

That's exactly why I bought my Cutlass.

So, it comes down with what you're happy with. Don't keep the Cutlass if you don't feel a special bond when you get in behind the wheel. Yeah, it sound crazy, but it's true. Even if you make it go faster, if you don't love it now, you'll soon loose the passion you'll find after you build it into a light to light 'stang killer. (Not recommended on the street)

That's my $0.02. The ultimate and correct decision (no matter what you choose) will be the right one for you. Good Luck.[/QUOTE]

I used to love the car, when I first bought it. It seems maybe it needs some work and thats why I'm in the situation I'm in. I tuned it up this weekend, but with the storm couldn't take it out. The car needs to be buffed bad, and I've tried myself, with mediocre results, and thats part of my issue. The car doesn't look as good as it did when I brought it home, and I'm having a hell of a time fixing that.

Bubba68CS

I have a local machine shop whose owner is an Olds nut. Has virgin nascar blocks, has built up "big block" sized small blocks from diesel blocks, and built my 350 (which is far from stock and would be an expensive build if I had to pay for it...but the guy who did "pay" for it couldn't pay his machining bill, and I got the thing for $1500). He quoted me 1500-2000 for a factory rebuild, and looking around at prices for things...it doesn't look like much has changed. You don't need a forged bottom end to make 400 HP. You don't need aluminum heads, $800 headers, a roller valvetrain...just a healthy cam and decent compression will go a long ways.

Also, look up TCI. Easily get a new transmission to handle the power for under a grand (I'm sure there are other reputable brands out there...this is just the first to come to mind). If you want overdrive, then you're looking up closer to 2 grand. But both of those are NEW transmissions...easy to find a TH400 in good shape that'll take the power

As a matter of fact, I did everything (including spraying the paint) in a poorly lit, cramped, unventilated, non-temperature controlled garage. Here's my final product:





More pics of the process here: http://community.webshots.com/user/bubba68cs

Two stage paint, etching primer and a urethane primer underneath.

Price you pay for buying an old car and not going through the whole thing. Other than an issue with air pockets in the cooling system, mine has been a model of reliability. But then, I tore mine down as far as you can without taking the body off and put it back together over the course of 5 years...and its still not finished (though it is driveable...daily drove it for 2 years before relegating it to occasional duty)!

No idea where you got that from

And again, its not that hard to fix. An Olds 350 will respond quite easily to simple mods. You, again, just aren't willing to put in the leg work and do your research...seems (again, just going off your posts...you may or may not actually be this way) you've never opened a Car Craft or Hot Rod magazine...or a SummitRacing catalog.

Worth it in a financial sense? Get over it...NO CAR will be worth it. There are obviously exceptions...but when I was in the process of building mine it was common knowledge that you'd be lucky to get half what you put into a car back out of it...didn't matter what it was...Cutlass 'S' or 66 442 W30. Even if its a rare car, it just makes it that much harder to get the right parts (date coded for the car) to obtain those high values. It is a HUGE benefit owning a car that is run-of-the-mill. You can make it a reliable driver without having to worry about destroying something of value. THIS is what you aren't getting. The car can be whatever you want it to be if you just let go of this delusion that its going to be an investment. It can be your dream car!

Mine sits all winter...makes for a great time to go back over it and fix any little (or big) things that may crop up over the driving season.

Its coming from your lack of research as to the ACTUAL cost of building something up and seeming unwillingness to do simple work. Again, this is how you are presenting yourself in your posts...its all anyone has to go off. If you are indeed different, you need to do a better job of showing it.

My dad had only worked on Chevies...he helped me immensely on mine.

Every car is going to need work at some point...especially old cars that aren't modernized. You have to enjoy tinkering. Its not your daily driver (which I'll admit to LOATHING working on a car when I HAVE to have it done)...so you can take your time and do things right without having to worry about it getting you to work the next day.

As for buffing, get a variable speed polisher, a good buffing pad, good machine compound, and go to town (careful not to burn through the paint though). I had to buy one to finish the paint on my car (after wet sanding)...we've used it on others...it works. If it doesn't work, you need new paint.

The crux of the issue is this: you view this as an investment and because of this, are unwilling to do the work to make the car right. Obviously any and all issues you have with driveability are easily fixed and at considerably less cost than you've been "estimating" (shooting in the dark)...we've shown you that. You think that if it were a 442, it'd magically be worth putting the money into...it wouldn't. It'd be the same situation. You'd still lose money*. Its a hobby...not an investment. Granted there are worse places to put your money, but at the end of the day, it is a car that you are going to be driving.

*There are people who can build a car without losing money. Matter of fact, I did. When I first started driving it...I had as much in my car as it was worth (and I'm still right there)...but I also took 5 years of scouring junkyards and parts bins, doing work most competent weekend warriors pay someone else to do, and jumping on ridiculous deals when they came along (like the motor I mentioned earlier). I am now passing the point of return on investment...my recent purchases of AC hoses and a TCI overdrive transmission to replace the one I rebuilt have thrust me over the breaking point...and I'm still looking to have my seats recovered, and add in a stereo...for now. Down the road I still want my headers, still want my disc brakes out back, still want my full hotckiss suspension (rather than just the springs I have now)...still want fuel injection...I have LOT of work to do to get it where I want it, but there is the key. I'm working to get it where I want it...not where the cost equals what I can get out of it. I absolutely love my car...not because it has power (the thing is a turd compared to that ZX-14 I mentioned earlier)...not because its plush and quiet (its not)...

Its an old car, with old style, that is COOL. That I built and paid for.

With all these $.02 you're getting...you should be able to afford some fuzzy dice soon!

morepwr

Thats funny right there!!

Aceshigh

The only thing separating a Cutlass from a 442 is badges and a hood in exterior aesthetics. Some have spoilers.

As for what I'm trying to tell you.....nothin, I was speaking to an Olds enthusiast.
It's there for you to read if you choose to consider your options.

I think you should sell your Oldsmobile to someone who will appreciate it more.

jpc647

You got really lucky! 1500 for a built motor seems like a hell of a deal. I wouldn't complain about that. I need to find a deal like that. I know it's expensive to build a motor "from scratch", sort of my dilemma.

I look into them. I've been scouring craigslist for a while now looking for a 455 with Th-400 combo for a while, but it'd like one thats is good shape, not in need of a complete teardown. I guess I'll keep looking.


The car looks great. Have you ever painted before? Are you a tradesmen by profession?


This is very true. I've literally checked everything on the distributor, I'm getting proper voltages everywhere, the lines are free of corrosion, etc. I don't get it. It could just be fear, like blowing a tire on the highway, for a while, even after replacing it, you still fear it'll blow again.

Well considering a 1972 Cutlass "S" was not a muscle car, I guess I can't pretend to know what it's like to own a muscle car.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bubba68CS

No idea where you got that from

You said my Genesis will never have the feel of an old Muscle Car. My response above was just stating that a 1972 Cutlass "S" is not a muscle car. The 442's and w-30's were muscle cars. So after driving around in my stock cutlass, I don't know what it's like to have the feel of a muscle car, so to me the Genesis is more of a muscle car than the Cutlass. Make Sense? Sorry if it didn't the first time.

I have put in some leg time. There are plenty of parts through summit or jegs for chevy 350's, not so much for Oldsmobile motors. I've looked into rebuilds, and though it was too expensive. I've done the intake and carb upgrade, which didn't do a whole lot. Maybe a little more umph if I get into it when I'm already at 30-40mph. The car already has 3.33 gears in it. This is one thing I don't want to change, except to go to more of a highway gear. Many of you recommend 3.73's but that little 350 will be screaming on the highway, absolutely screaming. It already screams with 3.33's. I don't know what else for "bolt-ons" I can do.


After trying to sell it, I've sort of realized they aren't investments.I know they "appreciate in value" so I sort of though if I bought it, kept it for a few years and wanted something else, It'd make enough money on it to get whatever it was I wanted, guess this was just a fantasy.


Yes, it would. I'm at school all winter, and when I'm home on break it's too cold to do anything in the garage. My original plan this past winter was to work on it, but I never got to it. Between all the snow, and work it just sat.

I feel like the simple stuff has been done. The carb and high rise intake, the gears. I've tuned it up, although I haven't taken it out yet, and seen if there is a difference. But rest assured, after work today I plan on taking her out and winding her up like a 10 day clock, I'm hoping for spectacular improvements. The old plugs and wires are pretty bad. We'll see. not sure what else "simple" there is. I don't consider rebuilts, or engine swaps to be simple things. To me, simple is a weekend bolt on project. Maybe that is where we're different?

Don't get me wrong, my dad helps, but he;s used to someone else, used to timing settings of a 462, not a rocket 350(just an example of what I poorly explained before).

This is true. I used to work on my old Ford after work, and it sucked trying to put it back together that night before work. Hell I left the plug wires off my Olds on Saturday before the storm, and no big deal. You're absolutely right, it makes a big difference.

I bought one at Walmart. A random orbital buffer, figured even a rookie couldn't screw up the paint with that. My problem is, the marks I see can only be seen in the direct sunlight, and buffing in the direct sun doesn't work out too well. ha, I learned this last weekend.

You're right, I did view it as an investment and didn''t want to work on int because of that. My estimates haven't been shooting in the dark, I was quoted 3k for a stockish rebuilt on a 350. I was quoted 1,200 for a transmission with converter to handle the new motor. The rear end, yes I pulled that out of the dark.

If I had 7,000 into a 72 442, spending a few grand wouldn't bother me, as the car is worth way more. But I probably wouldn't only have 7,000 into it if it was a 442, :/. So you're right, it'd be in the same situation...



Well I paid for mine, I haven't built much on it,

Bubba68CS

Yes, it was very lucky. But on the other hand it wasn't. I saw it sitting at the machine shop. Shop owner put us in contact with the engine owner and we offered 2 grand on it. He passed. He called about a month later offering to sell it to us for 2 grand...we passed as we had decided $1500 to rebuild the one we had was money better spent. Few weeks later, he called again and offered it to us for $1500. Its all about being prepared when the deal does come.

I have a 425 that was driven a 300 mile trip before being pulled that I got. Never did get it installed in anything, but I opened it up to check condition, then replaced all the gaskets and put it and the TH400 I mentioned earlier on craigslist for about 6 months...plenty of nibbles...no bites. They weren't cheap...I didn't have to sell them so they were priced where it would be worth it to get rid of...but they are out there. As I said earlier, you have to be ready to go when the deal comes along.

First time painting anything. Not a tradesman...Mech E (final year of PhD at this point). Pretty much everything done to this car was a first for me and my dad...

Thats my point...the Cutlass is a muscle car, even by some of the stricter standards (intermediate 2-door, RWD, V8 made from 64-72 - I don't follow this standard though I hate when people call new cars "muscle cars" just because they are fast, but thats a whole 'nother discussion for a different time).

There's enough in Summit to completely rebuild an Olds 350...and build it well. As for what to do...camshaft. Its going to be the biggest bang for your buck. Though you need enough compression to make it worthwhile. Don't have my Chiltons here so I can't check what that was on a 72.

Yup.

Portable propane heater. Didn't get one until after I had done the majority of the work on mine, but it makes working on them in the winter SOOOOOOOO much better.

I wouldn't consider those easy either...well an engine swap could be depending on how 'drop in' your replacement is. But as I mentioned earlier, a cam swap isn't THAT difficult (you will have to make room up front, but its still a weekend project).

A nice set of halogen lights will cure that problem real quick. Another thing I got AFTER all the major work was done on mine (sensing a theme here...).


The engine might cost that if you're having them do all of the work, but I'd do the disassembly/assembly myself. They only need to do the machine work. At that point it becomes MUCH cheaper. The transmissions have gone up in cost lately, but you can get a brand new one from TCI with a TCI converter for that much. A SummitRacing brand (no idea on the quality) goes for $700 and is rated up to 400 HP.

Yup.

Dive in...water's fine!

oldsmobum

LOOK IT- I am 25, not much older than you. Listen very carefully- Maybe your car does put out only 190 hp stock- though I believe that number is wrong, but there is something you need to understand. For most intents and purposes horsepower doesn't mean ****. Horsepower is what the parts jockeys at autozone bs about when they are not telling me that my olds is the same thing as a chevy. Its TORQUE which matters, which your 350 makes INSANE amounts of, as in more than 1 ft/lb per cubic inch!

Assuming your car is for the most part mechanically sound- in a weekend, with maybe $500, I could embarass your Hyundai. If you've got a sound motor, its very easy to make power. 3 things will help IMMENSELY:

1. intake
2. cam
3. exhaust

13's easy, 12's if you carefully calculate your choice in combination. Your car will run harder than you do in the morning. Don't sweat the transmission. A buddy put 550 hp and 600 ft/lbs in front of a stock th350 with a shift kit and it held up for the 6 months he ran that setup.

And lose the investment argument. You just spent $35,000 on a car that is now only worth $20,000, if you want to talk about a bad investment.

If it bums you out, sell the car. Don't be surprised when you encounter the car again and it hands you your *** on the street. Your Hyundai is great what you bought it for, but it will be gone long before that cutlass will.

Do me a favor and do 1 thing before you do anything- Check the timing. if its too retarded it will make the car run like a dog. I think if you do the tune up you'll wind up keeping it

Aceshigh

For the record.....
A Cutlass isn't a muscle car in stock trim. The weak motor is why.....

High Performance was the bigger part of the Muscle Car description.
Cutlasses were not factory high performance cars. W-31's and 442's were.
They most definitely can be made INTO a muscle car though.....as many vehicles can be.

Today you'll find way more 442's and Chevelle SS's on the streets IMO then even GM produced.
Clones are abundant with more powerful engines galore in them.

As for the modern cars being muscle cars, yes they are.....in fact even moreso.
The only reason the "Muscle Car" term died for so long was because of emissions.
Today's V8 performance cars are most definitely the new muscle car generation reborn even more powerful.

Just my .92

442_Mustang

Well... I kinda like how your car looks...My car is also the "S" model. When I went through it, I had several people telling me to put the 442 emblems on it. Especially being a factory 4 speed car. As you can see, I didn't listen.It's my car. I love it. I've had it since 1984 and the thumbs up and compliments I get when I am driving it are endless.It's your call. Do what you want to with it but I'd still have to call your car a muscle car. Just maybe the muscle needs to be extracted. Maybe a better rear gear, maybe a performance tune up, but I know that whatever goals you have for your classic car will be easier to achieve in the Cutlass than the Lincoln. Those Lincolns have too much gadgetry that is difficult to diagnose and nearly impossible to replace. I have a guy that lives maybe 5 or 6 miles away that literally has 7 or 8 of those Lincolns in his yard to keep his primary lincoln functioning.I guess he likes his but I know he works on them an awful lot.

Willidog

The bottom line is for you to do what YOU want. My ADVICE would be: If you want a classic car that is fast then look around and see what you can find. Many 442's show up on different places like Craigs list and E-Bay. Look for some that are close enough to you that you can go look at them. I'm 47 and I have owned my Cutlass "S" since 1988. I have put a little money (about 12,000 in it and it is not even numbers matching on ANYTHING.) I can tell you that the only way I would sell it is to upgrade to a 69 Hurst Olds. I was in the Navy and kept my wrecked Cutlass in storage for 13 years while overseas so that I could rebuild it someday. Finally got it done and now it's back in storage. The reason I will keep my car is that I enjoy driving it. I wouldn't even think about wanting it to handle like a new car or have the ammenities/speed/power. The point for me as stated above by others is that it IS an old car. As I said, do what you want but I would keep it for a little while and see if you still feel the same in 6 months or a year. I've heard too many stories from guys saying "I wish I would have never sold that car!" Good luck. I like the look of your car by the way.

Bubba68CS

Yeah, we are worlds apart here...I pretty much disagree with everything you just said...

Aceshigh

That's cool.

I'm just going by the definition of what defines a muscle car.
The "Muscle" part isn't the body, it's the powerful engine.

1969w3155

Aceshigh is pretty correct on what he said. A Cutlass isn't a musclecar, any more than a 1998 Monte Carlo w/ a 3.1 v6 is a musclecar. The options or models with the perfromance drivetrains made them musclecars. A Cutlass isn't, a 442 is. A malibu isn't, a Chevele SS is. Just because a Cutlass has two doors does not make it a musclecar, the Cutlass, Skylarks, Belvedere's were just two door bread and butter transportation, the performance models, with the engines and transmissions made them musclecars. A new Camaro with a V6 isn't a musclecar, an SS with the 6.2 V8 is.

Bubba68CS

Its all opinion...there are plenty of definitions of muscle cars...I disagree with this one vehemently. No new car is a muscle car...its people wanting a new car to be something its not just because its fast.

Aceshigh

This could also be said.
It's cool though, we just come from different perspectives.

My 1970 442 wannabe is a Cutlass S.
It's not a factory muscle car, but it will be once I finish the new powerplant.

1969w3155

I'm guessing that you bought your Cutlass thinking that it was a Musclecar, research, research, research.

oldsguybry

in a way , I kinda got lucky with my car.... even though it needs to be restored , and does not have the original engine , its faster then the original engine was , just barely making it into the muscle car level... but I also happen to have a 455 laying around , so im pretty happy

RAMBOW

A Cutlass w31 owner might disagree with you.
Hell, my 66 cutlass came from the factory with a 320hp 330 in it. the 442 that year only had 40 more hp!

The term muscle car is very subjective. To some it may mean you must have the "up" model, 442, GTO, SS, etc etc... To others it simply means a midsize or full size car with a powerful motor in it- stock or otherwise. Still to others- its any cool looking/sounding car from the 60's.

I do agree with you that a plain jane cutlass isn't much of a muscle car from either of my 1st two points of view. But to the vast majority of people who don't know anything about engines or cars- a decent looking 1972 plain jane cutlass is most definietly a muscle car.
And putting a decent engine in one most definitely covers POV #2, which only leaves out the POV from teh guys who want to see the badges.

Just my $.02

All that said... I have to agree with the people above. Seriously if you are whining about how to buff out your car, and because you had to get towed home due to some electronics glitches, you are in the wrong hobby.

And you'll be sitting a while if you are waiting for a perfect motor ready to drop in the car to fall in your lap.

It doesn't matter what kind of classic car you have- even that butt ugly lincoln- old cars have problems. They had them when they were new. Thats why there was a service station on every corner back then. They need constant tweeking to keep running right. Most of us take those things for granted, but people that are used to modern cars, hopping in and going w/o having to lift a finger- these cars would drive them nuts.

Modifications are done to your own desires. If you want more power- rebuild the motor to your specs. 350hp out of a 350 olds would be a no brainer and would make that car rock and roll. LEARN TO DO IT. Its not rocket science.

You may have done all kinds of work and be very mechanically inclined, but if you are not interested in messing & tweaking, researching, scheming and planning your modifications- and dealing with occasionally being towed home (AAA Plus is a car guys best friend)- when things go wrong, then its the wrong hobby for you.

Just like the other guys in this thread... we're not trying to be dicks- just laying it out.

Buying a different old car will not resolve any of the problems you have mentioned. You either have to accept that, and be cool doing the work- or have a bucket of money and a mechanic you can trust to pay to keep it going.

I will add this...
In the last 15 years I've had at least 10 different classic cars (i've lost count). every year around January/February- i get the ITCH. The itch for something different.
When i was single with a good job and more money than I knew what to do with, I bought and sold cars like i changed my underwear. More than a few I quickly regretted.

Now that i'm a little older and married-Kid-house-poor, its easier for me to fight that urge- but its still there.

The only solution i've found is to do that planning & scheming for a project- then dig in and do it.
Be it an engine build, suspension overhaul, interior, whatever. Plan & Scheme for a bit- then jump in and do it.
for me, I have to do that stuff to keep interested in the project- otherwise my mind wanders and suddenly i'm thinking of a big ugly overpriced 79 lincoln that i'll kickmyself for selling a cooler car to get later on.

oldcutlass

Well said ^^^^^^^^^^^^^, and some people are not meant to be old car owners, beacause they can't be old car maintainers. It takes a bit of imagination and optimism, will power, some skill, and cash!

Just sell the car!

CQR

Wow, RAMBOW. You truly are a freak.


I was beginning to think I was the only one. That itch is spring fever. Even being old and poor doesn't make it easier, I just can't afford to scratch it, thats all.

Bubba68CS

I bought my car knowing full well what it is. FACT is a regular factory 442 or W31 was NOT a fast car from the factory...they were 13-14 even 15 second rides...nothing at all spectacular. Even a 68 Hurst Olds ran a magazine tested time in the high 13's. Downright pathetic by today's standards for a flagship "muscle car".

So there goes the whole "performance argument" My high school ride, a weak 305 powered IROC, ran high 14's.

FACT is, you put a plane jane factory stock 2bbl '72 Cutlass next to one of the new Camry's and ask ANYONE which one is the muscle car, GUARANTEE they'll point out the 72...even though the Camry will out run it. Or, to keep it "American", use an Impala SS...same thing.

As I said...it is purely subjective. For me, it was an era...for some people, anything that goes "fast" is a muscle car.

citcapp

Yeah but it did those times on Bias ply tires and a open rear end now you add better grip tires and a posi..............Different place in time. There is no right or wrong here just a difference of opinion. But I gotta tell ya, all the rides your talking about are boring like belly buttons, now an old muscle car from the bygone age had style, nothing new comes even close in my 65 year old mind period. Sit back and enjoy what ever you end up with that's the whole point after all. Think I'll go for a ride in my 57 very fast "not a muscle car". Olds Super 88 462 powered hardtop Might just smoke a couple of new muscle cars

Bubba68CS

To me, it was an era. I have an original review of a 69 W-31...first thing they did was go to JCPenny and slap on some slicks...when it started having valve-float, they swapped out the valvesprings (without even the slightest bit of fuss).

Can you imagine doing that with a modern car? Don't care how fast a new car is, its not a muscle car in my book.

Aceshigh

This thread humors me.
Talking about PERFORMANCE OF AN ERA.....not Performance 1968 vs 2011. LOL

So a 17 second Cutlass is a Muscle car
But a high 13 second Hurst Olds on skinny weak tire compounds amidst an era of 20-30 second vehicles wasn't a fast car.
Got it. lol

Put some real modern 315/40/18 Nitto 555R drag radial tires on those cars today and watch them do 12's in stock trim I'd bet.

Precisely.....
Not to mention....
The street tire compounds of today supercede that of NASCAR's tire compounds in the 80's.....
Now go back yet ANOTHER 20 years in rubber technology. Not to mention Honda Accords have
that 60's performance size tire today.

sicky olds

Back to what jpc647 was saying and asking about lol: If you are so mechanically savvy why cant you do a motor rebuild yourself? why pay someone this 4k or whatever to rebuild it when you are perfectly capable yourself? Sh*t i just started working on cars maybe a lil over a year and a half and me and a buddy rebuilt my 455 in my garage! I spent about 1500 bucks to do it, and that is with a brand new carb, exhaust system and headers.

What i personally am reading and interpreting here is that you thought you could flip an old school car and use it as an investment, WRONG way to go there without putting research into it, even then you will rarely make money on such a thing. Wake up smell the coffee and either spruce up this car you have and enjoy it or sell it to someone who will. Which btw if the car is worth nill to you i will happily give you 1k for it and you can ship it to me and i will show you what that lil cutlass can do with the same motor and not dropping more than lets say 3k in parts. and that is highballing it IMHO.
That is my 2 cents and speaking of NASCAR this thread seems to be going no where but in circles .

And since other people mentioned it i will also. With me being 27 and with the girls, which i have no clue why that got thrown into this thread to begin with, i know PLENTY of women (anywhere from 19-30 mind you) that would prefer an old school muscle to anything new... They are just pure SEX!!!! that is all on that one.

So all in all sell the damn thing since you clearly wont enjoy it and go buy something you will enjoy and probably dump the same or maybe even more money into a car that you wont be able to flip for profit.....

1969w3155

I FACT..they were fast from the factory, faster than the average car..but you insist on comparing them to todays technology..ignorant at best, hell my Saturn will blow my '71 supreme into the weeds, and neither of them are musclecars, and my Saturn will bitch slap a V6 Camry, and it's still not a musclecar..it'll turn mid 14's..average by todays standards, but right in the thick of it in the musclecar era. A P51 Mustang was an *** kicker in WWII, but is hopless against an F22 raptor.

1969w3155

As I own one, I know that the performance pkg that it is, made it a musclecar, The "W31" option.

Bubba68CS

See, now you guys are going well off your own definitions. Performance is performance:

If what makes a muscle car a muscle car is the ability to easily modify it to go fast, guess what? A regular cutlass has that. A modern diesel pickup has that. So there goes that argument.

If what makes a muscle car a muscle car is outright performance, it doesn't matter what era we're talking about...there were factory shipped cars running in the 11's (the ultra rare, barely legal Hemi Darts for example)...so your 15 second 442 was nothing. There's ONE Oldsmobile in the top 50 as compiled by Muscle Car Review:

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...s-50fast.shtml

So don't even try to tell me those cars were "fast" by the standards of the day...there were at least 49 non-Oldsmobiles kicking their butt's by over a second in the quarter mile...running on the same bias ply tires.

A muscle car was defined by the era. A new Camry SE will run 14.6's...its "made in America"...so it must be a "muscle car" if we're going purely off your definitions. Thats "fast" compared to other "normal cars" of the era (if you consider 15 second 442 fast for its era). I'm sorry, but I just vomited in my mouth a bit...you're really telling me that a FWD, V6 Camry that outruns your factory stock 442 is more of a muscle car than my Cutlass? HA!

So again, you are having to twist and stretch your own definitions to fit what YOU think is a muscle car...so again, as I said, it is PURELY subjective. And I highly (can't emphasis that enough) disagree with your subjective criteria.

Aceshigh

LOL okay.

1969w3155

Bubba..you are in your own world.