ByronF

Decided to start a new thread on this project rather than bury it in a thread devoted to a mirror. The power door locks on my 77 Toronado do not work on either door. Nor do the door courtesy lamps and I would like to get them working.

Jaunty was kind enough to offer the following advice:
"About your door lock and power window switch panels, I actually replaced those panels not long ago on my car because I found a pair in very nice condition on ebay. Those blue things are not fuses or anything complicated. As far as I can tell, they';re just insulators to prevent a wire or metal from falling across the pins and shorting them. Just do what it says on them and twist them off. Then pry off the wiring connectors, unscrew the two screws holding each switch in place, and the switch can be removed.

You can remove the power lock switch and test it. It's got three pins. The center pin connects to one or the other of the two side pins depending on which way the switch is pushed. Connect one lead from an ohmmeter to the center pin and the other lead to one of the side pins. Then push the switch one way or the other. In one of the directions, you should see a momentary closed circuit. The switch has some kind of a limiter in it to prevent the switch from staying closed if you hold the switch in one or the other direction for any length of time. This prevents the power lock motors from continuing to get power even though the lock has already been thrown. In any event, assuming that you get a closed circuit with the switch thrown in one direction, move the lead connected to one of the outer pins to the other outer pin and push the switch in the other direction. You should get a closed circuit again. If you observe this behavior, the switch is working fine. You can actually do these tests without removing the switch from the panel. You just have to remove the wiring connector.

I forget. On your car, do the door locks not work at all? Or do they just not work from one door but work ok from the other door? If the latter, suspecting the switch on that door as the problem is probably correct. But if the locks don't work from either switch, I'm guessing the problem is not the switches unless both happened to fail at the same time, which seems unlikely. I do have an extra door lock switch, and I'd be glad to send it to you if you need it. It and an extra power window switch were still attached to the panels when they were sent to me by the ebay seller.

If you leave the wiring connector connected, you should see 12 volts at the center pin. I would check that first. Make sure the switch is getting power. If it's not, then you're checking the power supply line, fuse, etc. If it is, then you're probably looking at problems with the door lock actuators themselves. But, again, have both lock actuators fail at the same time seems unlikely. I believe the door lock power is on the same circuit as the courtesy lamps, so that's the fuse to check. If the fuse is and both door locks don't work, there is a step-by-step troubleshooting process on page 10-053 of the 1977 Fisher Body manual
He was also kind enough to include the following trouble shooting chart which I also found in my manual



So the first thing to check are the fuses. This is the fuse panel layout from my manual.



What is interesting is that the windows, door locks and power seat run off the same fuse. My windows and power seat work fine so I don't think that is the problem but will check it anyway. The door courtesy lamps and dome lamp don't work despite new bulbs but they are on a separate fuse so hopefully they are a simple fuse issue. As for the door locks it looks like a fair bit of checking and testing to find the cause of the problem. I have seen on some you tube videos that on some cars the problem was caused by a broken wires in the rubber sleeve/boot that connects to the door. So I should probably check that as well and was wondering if anyone has ever removed one of these sleeves and is there a trick to it?

jaunty75

Byron, the first thing to check is the courtesy lamp fuse.

I don't think you're reading the fuse panel diagram correctly. Where it says at the top "Power for electric seats, windows, door locks," that's not a fuse. That's a power source. Devices that have a large power draw (electric seats, windows, door locks, horn) are protected by a circuit breaker in a circuit that has a relay. Power comes to those relays through switch-controlled low voltage power supplied through fuse-protected circuits. You don't want 30 or 40 amps of power running through the power lock or window switches on your door. A short there could electrocute the person pushing the switch, cause a fire, or who knows what. So only low-voltage, low-power circuits are used, and they simply power a relay where the real work is done and through which the real current flows. For safety reasons, these circuits are kept away from things humans can touch. None of this is needed for things like the clock or the radio because those are low power draw devices that won't hurt you if there should be a short while you're touching it.

Read the bottom left corner of page 10-50 in your Fisher Body Manual under "Locking Cycle."

"Voltage is supplied to the control switches from the fuse block via the orange wire. This circuit is protected by a 20 amp (courtesy lamp) fuse. Voltage is supplied to the relay assembly via the orange/black stripe wire from the fuse block. This circuit is protected by a 30-amp circuit breaker."

There are two key things here. The power lock circuit is not primarily protected by a fuse but by a circuit breaker as noted above. Power to the two control switches comes through the courtesy lamp circuit in spite of what the labeling on the fuse panel diagram shows. I admit that that diagram is confusing because it also shows on the lower right "door locks" as being on the same fuse as the cigar lighter, clock, and power antenna. I don't know what that means. The courtesy lamp fuse is shown at the upper right, and it also protects the dome lamps, quarter panel lamps, etc. but no mention of door locks.

In any event, I think the best thing to do is to follow the troubleshooting procedure shown on that page I posted (page 10-52 in the manual). Start by checking the courtesy lamp fuse. I'm going to guess you'll find it's blown because your courtesy lamps don't work. I'll bet that as soon as you replace that fuse, it'll either blow again immediately as soon as you open a door or try working the power locks, indicating you've got a short somewhere, or, you'll find that the courtesy lights AND the power door locks start working as they should.

rocketscientis

Please let me know & I may be able to assist
omishjon4@gmail.com

ByronF

Jaunty, the original 20 amp courtesy lamp fuse was blown as you predicted. I replaced the fuse and it blew immediately. So I guess that means a short somewhere. Now the fun begins especially in light of the fact that I am not very good at tracking electrical gremlins. Will give it a go and will probably have more dumb questions for you as I try and work through the steps.

jaunty75

Byron, let me tell you a story.

I bought a '73 Custom Cruiser back in 2010, and the first problem I had to tackle was finding a short in the tail light circuit. The taillights would not light up when I turned on the headlights. If I replaced the fuse, the moment I pulled out the headlight switch, the fuse would blow. Oh goody, I thought. How am I going to find this short.

I ended up buying this thing from Amazon. What you do is replace the fuse with a fast-acting, reversing circuit breaker. It turns the current on/off/on/off rapidly to keep any short from causing a problem. The alternating on/off creates a magnetic field around the wire. You pass a sensor along the wire (and it works through carpeting and panels and everything), and it notices the point of the short because the short causes the magnetic field to collapse at that point. It worked well and told me that the problem was in the vicinity of the left side taillight. I took it apart, and, lo and behold, the problem was obvious. When the car had been repainted under the prior owner (shortly before he died and why the car was for sale), the body shop pinched a wire in the taillight wiring when they reattached the taillight and trim. As soon as I fixed that, hallelujah, I had taillights.

This thing isn't cheap, but it saved me a lot of time and random looking. Amazon has many other short-finders. This is the only one I have experience with.

jaunty75

But before you go too far and buy something like this, I would check obvious things. I would take out the bulb at each courtesy lamp that doesn't work and check it and the wiring leading to it. You might also check the door jamb switches as those can get wet and over time might be corroded.

It's not surprising that the fuse blows when you replace it because something caused the fuse to blow originally, and whatever it was probably didn't fix itself in the interim.

rocketscientis

are going to be moisture and it's sidekick corrosion resulting in bad lock actuators and or your wiring that has become kinked or pinched at some point in time we're travels through your door jamb

ByronF

Jaunty, you are amazing! You find the neatest gizmos. I will check the obvious things the hard way but that little short detector is really kind of neat and really not that expensive. Had a look at that rubber boot between the door and the body today with the intention of sliding it back to see if I could find any broken or pinched wires. Could not believe that they had screws attaching it to the body and of course they were at a difficult angle in a tight space. So have not managed to get them off yet.

jaunty75

I'll go out on another limb here and say that I don't think the short will be along a length of wire passing through a conduit or something. I mean, how would it get a short? The insulation would have to crack and break off, and yes that could happen in something like the door jamb conduit as that is constantly getting flexed every time you open and close the door. But even the insulation falling off isn't enough because the now-bare wire has to short against something, and what's it going to short against? Not the conduit as that's plastic. It would have to be against an adjacent wire, but that would require TWO wires to have their insulation fall off in the same location. The odds of that are pretty low. And there's still one additional problem. If the power lock wire is shorting against another wire, wouldn't that other wire also be shorting against the power lock wire? So you might think there'd be TWO blown fuses, not one, unless the other circuit is also protected by the same fuse. But in any event, there's too many coincidences that have to happen in order for a wire that's just laying there to suddenly develop a short.

I think the problem will be found where the wiring attaches to a fixture, such as one of the door jamb switches or one of the courtesy lights themselves. It might even be at the point where the wire attaches to the power lock switch in one of the doors. These are places where moisture might get in. These are places where removal and replacement of the fixture could case a short as happened with the tail light on my Custom Cruiser. Etc.

Now that I think about it, here's what I'd do first. I'd take apart the door console where the power lock switch is located on each door and pull off the connectors to the door lock switches. Then try replacing the fuse and see what happens. If the fuse stays intact, you just found the problem. If the fuse blows, you've just eliminated a large chunk of wiring from needing to be checked.

ByronF

Jaunty, your rationale makes perfect sense to me. My thinking about the door jamb conduit/boot is that if the problem was in there I would expect to see some sort of wear or tear on the conduit/boot itself. But there is none. Now that doesn't mean that some wire inside hasn't degraded over time but as you point out an adjacent wire would have to have the same problem. I like your idea of pulling the wires off the lock switches and then trying a new fuse to see what happens.
What would make this testing easier is if I could locate one of those buss to blade fuse adapters as shown in the photo below. As you know getting the glass fuse in and out is a real pain even with my little plastic puller tool. As I suspect I will probably burn out a few fuses tracking down the problem.



That short circuit tester you indicated was really cool. I am seriously tempted to get one just because. I checked Amazon and found one I thought was pretty interesting as it has flashing led's and tones. Not all that expensive either. And if disconnecting the switch wires doesn't solve the problem, I can see it being a big help in tracking down the source of the short. Here is the one I am looking at. What do you think.?

rocketscientis

Is man made...probably by person that may be able to tie their shoes....Know I need one...tester. ...any way to get schematic / parts list ???
I will make em if we can figure out how as long as beatings every hour on th hour are not required like in china & even if they are
....that will work...just not goin to be recipiant..
​​

jaunty75

Byron, what you want is one of these. It's a circuit breaker that fits into a glass fuse holder. This one is 20 amp, which I think is what you need for that courtesy lamp circuit. They do come in other amperages.

The round copper ends fit into each side of the glass fuse holder.

What you showed would work also as removing those blade fuses is much easier. But with the circuit-breaker, you're not blowing fuse after fuse as you search for the problem. I know what you mean about trying to get glass fuses out of that under-dash location. I always end up breaking them. Very awkward to reach.






Looks like it should work. If you get it, let us know.

ByronF

With the assistance of my local mechanic we finally tracked down the source of the short in the courtesy lamp circuit. It turned out to be the lighter socket in the rear seat ashtray on the passenger side. So we unplugged it, taped it off, installed a new fuse and voila all my courtesy and dome lamps worked and as an added bonus the passenger side power door lock worked. The drivers side is not working although there is power to the switch, which I guess means that the actuator on the driver side is shot. So now have to track one of those down.
Once again my thanks to Jaunty and everyone for your help and advice. It is so nice to have my courtesy lamps back and to be well on the road to fixing the power locks.

jaunty75

Very good, Byron! Have you actually gotten to the driver's door lock actuator to make sure the problem isn't just bad wiring or something like that? Also, it would be useful to know if the actuator is unique to the Toronado or if an actuator from a 98 or 88 would work, and perhaps what other years would work.

A user on this site named Big Dooly is parting out several full-size Oldsmobiles from the early and mid-'70s, and he may have one. I've purchased several items from him, and he's great to work with.

Also, as you probably know, one of our moderators (2blu442) has been parting out a '78 Toro. I don't know if he still has it, but it most likely has power door locks if he does.

ByronF

Jaunty, what I have determined so far is the Delco part number 22062740 is the door lock actuator that will work/fit. As alternatives - Dorman part number 746-014 and Standard Motor Products DLA1 will also work or so they claim. There is a wide variance in price with the Dorman and Standard starting at about $30 each and the Delco is well over $100. For that kind of money I can replace both if the alternates do fit and work.
I do know that John is parting out his 78 but for this part I think I would prefer new rather hoping a used one still works as it is not something that will ever be seen and originality in this case in not my concern but reliability is.

On another note, thought i would share this. Back when I had the car painted the door lock gaskets disintegrated when the body shop removed the locks to paint the car. I finally tracked replacements and after 6 weeks they finally arrived and I got them installed. Needless to say no more slop in the door lock assembly. (Please excuse the dirty car.)

jaunty75

Looks good!

I didn't think new door lock actuators were available. Glad to see that they are.